What's Wrong With Richard Dawkins?

He has been successful in giving Science a terrible name, he has portrayed Science as the ultimate truth and created his own little cult of followers (fundamentalists atheists). In no way, he can be compared to Carl Sagan, an honorable man who managed to get millions of young people to see Science as an interesting subject.

The fact that we are discussing "what is wrong with Richard Dawkins?" says a lot about that it may be something wrong with his tactics. But we are not alone. Even the Royal Society has noticed that people like Dawkins are giving the wrong impression about Science:
"If we give the impression that science is hostile to even mainstream religion, it will be more difficult to combat the kinds of anti-science sentiments that are really important," Martin Rees head of the Royal Society
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/may/29/controversiesinscience.peopleinscience

So I am not the only one who thinks that Dawkins is giving Science a bad name and is creating the opposite effect.

Well I think the problem is that people like Dawkins and (from this thread) skeptigirl are completely right: logically speaking, there is absolutely no difference between religion and any other form of woo like astrology and homeopathy. On the other hand, it's no use denying that people don't think about religion the same way; given a theist and an astrology believer, the theist is probably much, much more attached to his religion than the astrology believer is to astrology. And, therefore, the theist is likely to get more offended when you question is religion than the astrologer is when you question astrology.

So there's sort of a dichotomy ... do you treat religion exactly like any other woo belief, or don't you? On the one hand, treating it like any other woo belief is more intellectually honest, because it is a woo belief. On the other hand, treating it differently from other beliefs is sort of dishonest (because intellectually speaking, it isn't any different), but is probably more likely to get your views seriously considered, because you're avoiding attacking the beliefs that your audience hold closest to its collective heart, and this is obviously a boon to skeptics. If you tell somebody, "homeopathy is false," you're more likely to convince them than if you say, "homeopathy is false, and by the way your most cherished belief around which you base much of your life is a childish lie."

So, there's a question; do you do what's most intellectually honest, or do you do what's more likely to get converts to your way of thinking (in most areas)? Dawkins, Hitchens, etc. al have obviously opted for the first option; I tend towards the second. Either one is open to criticism.

I found your citation to be a little questionable, btw, because although Rees did say that, he wasn't explicitly criticizing Dawkins for it, based on your link.
 
@ Luzz,
Have you read The Demon Haunted World by Sagan? He says just about the same things Dawkins does. The fact that he didn't talk about gods in the Cosmos series is because of the simple reason that he recognized that they matter not a whit to science, and Cosmos was about science. Because there is no evidence of gods, and because there are alternative explainations which do not need to invoke gods, science is gods-free.
As to your "giving science a bad name" argument, Dawkins merely expresses the above given view of gods re science. Not only does Dawkins express an obvious viewpoint, and one which theistic scientists accept when they do science, i.e, miraculous explainations are not viable, he does this only in response to those who challenge him.
I have never had a stranger come to my door and offer me The God Delusion, or have an atheist want to come inside and discuss the lack of gods.
I have never seen a person picketing the theology building of a university with placards railing against the study of gods.
No atheist has ever stopped me on a public walkway to shout at the top of his lungs about how I was merely going to cease being upon death, and there is no such thing as a soul.
Unless you possess evidence that Dawkins has done any of these things, calling him a proselytizer is so utterly without merit as to not have merited the above response.

And yes, I have experienced all of the above being done by Christian proselytizers, including being told that, because I did not repent my sins, my immediate death would be a blessing to Christians.
But I'm sure that these men (they do it every day at the local university) are not "true Christians".
 
...he has portrayed Science as the ultimate truth...
Science is simply the objective search for truth. End of story. If you want to read tea leaves or smack yourself in the head with a hammer to find truth then have fun but there is no reason to suppose that you will find it other than using the scientific method.
 
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If you want to ... smack yourself in the head with a hammer to find truth then have fun but there is no reason to suppose that you will find it other than using the scientific method.

Are you questioning Gyro Gearless?

Heathen.
 
When I first heard of the movement, my first reaction was "'Brights'? Seriously?" That was before I even knew exactly what they stood for; the name really does have that effect on me, whether you believe it or not.

I don't quite know what to make of the rest of your post; of course Brights dismiss faith. So do atheists who don't call themselves Brights, like me. If you're suggesting that I dislike the Bright movement because they're more confrontational about their nonbelief than I am, I can assure you that that isn't true, simply because I don't have any conception that people who call themselves Brights are any more confrontational than atheists who don't. Christopher Hitchens hates the term, and he's about the most confrontational, not-afraid-to-dismiss-faith atheist that I'm aware of.

Also, I'd like to know what was wrong with the words "atheists" "freethinkers" and "naturalists" that it was necessary to invent a new word to describe the same thing.

Finally, I think it doesn't matter whether people's dislike for the word is rational or not. Atheists already have PR problems; insisting on a name that offends people, whether or not the offense is rational, seems like it should be the last thing we should be doing. Stick to your guns, but don't create needless trouble for yourself...
Well I respect your opinion here. I'll take your word for it the name alone is the issue for some people then.

I thought the point of the name was to identify a specific movement as opposed to just an accurate term describing people's world view. I thought of it as a name of a group and as such it wasn't just an adjective. The people I have spoken to before that objected voiced the usual concern we shouldn't confront god beliefs. I've started a couple of threads that led to skeptics debating skeptics about this specific issue. There are many skeptics who have yet to let go of their own god beliefs and just as many agnostics who are sensitive when it is suggested god beliefs as just as woo as homeopathy.

As for the PR thing, I don't think it matters that you call yourself something that sounds arrogant if once you state your position it is perceived as arrogant anyway. And if you are going to say god beliefs are woo, then god believers are going to think you arrogant. And I don't accept the position god beliefs are exceptions to woo.
 
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He has been successful in giving Science a terrible name, he has portrayed Science as the ultimate truth and created his own little cult of followers (fundamentalists atheists). In no way, he can be compared to Carl Sagan, an honorable man who managed to get millions of young people to see Science as an interesting subject.

The fact that we are discussing "what is wrong with Richard Dawkins?" says a lot about that it may be something wrong with his tactics. But we are not alone. Even the Royal Society has noticed that people like Dawkins are giving the wrong impression about Science:
"If we give the impression that science is hostile to even mainstream religion, it will be more difficult to combat the kinds of anti-science sentiments that are really important," Martin Rees head of the Royal Society
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/may/29/controversiesinscience.peopleinscience

So I am not the only one who thinks that Dawkins is giving Science a bad name and is creating the opposite effect.

Might one conclude from this you are an evolution denier or you are offended because you have god beliefs? Or is it something else about Dawkins that offends you?

Just wanted some perspective on this post.


BTW, the article you have linked to is exactly what I have been talking about, to coddle theists in the hopes of getting through to more people or to confront theist beliefs because that is what the evidence supports and that is where science should be going. And it is this divide which is at the root of why some atheists dislike Dawkins.
 
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Well I respect your opinion here. I'll take your word for it the name alone is the issue for some people then.
Not for me. I find their frivolous abandonment of humanistic values in favor of preposterous concepts like "animal rights" disgusting and potentially dangerous for a democratic society.
 
.....
I have never had a stranger come to my door and offer me The God Delusion, or have an atheist want to come inside and discuss the lack of gods....
Me neither but when those theists come to my door, and they do, they get an earful from me about how disgusting I think the Biblical god is for all the condoning of slavery, the constant need to have animal sacrifices, the stupidity of forgiving disobedience by having your son tortured, the lack of knowledge of the germ theory noted in the Bible, the horrible treatment of women and so on and so on. :D
 
Not for me. I find their frivolous abandonment of humanistic values in favor of preposterous concepts like "animal rights" disgusting and potentially dangerous for a democratic society.
Did you post in the wrong thread or something? :boggled:
 
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Science is simply the objective search for truth. End of story.

That would be nice but that isn't actualy the case. While I generaly wouldn't go as far as Paul Feyerabend he did have a point when you look at how science has behaved in the past.

If you want to read tea leaves or smack yourself in the head with a hammer to find truth then have fun but there is no reason to suppose that you will find it other than using the scientific method.

Hitting your head with with a hammer causes pain thus we conclude that hard impacts cause pain. Not of course a legitimate conclusion within most popular versions of the scientific method (you could do it with Lakato's method but given the right set of auxiliary hypotheses you could say that about almost anything).
 
He has been successful in giving Science a terrible name, he has portrayed Science as the ultimate truth and created his own little cult of followers (fundamentalists atheists).
No.

In no way, he can be compared to Carl Sagan, an honorable man who managed to get millions of young people to see Science as an interesting subject.
In many ways, he can be compared to Carl Sagan.

The fact that we are discussing "what is wrong with Richard Dawkins?" says a lot about that it may be something wrong with his tactics. But we are not alone. Even the Royal Society has noticed that people like Dawkins are giving the wrong impression about Science:
"If we give the impression that science is hostile to even mainstream religion, it will be more difficult to combat the kinds of anti-science sentiments that are really important," Martin Rees head of the Royal Society
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/may/29/controversiesinscience.peopleinscience

So I am not the only one who thinks that Dawkins is giving Science a bad name and is creating the opposite effect.
Yes, you are. What Rees is saying is that if scientists openly criticise religion, it can make it even harder than it already is to combat irrational anti-science opinions. If that was all that you were saying, I'd agree, but deem it largely irrelevant. But that's not all you are saying, is it?
 
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@ Luzz,
As to your "giving science a bad name" argument, Dawkins merely expresses the above given view of gods re science. Not only does Dawkins express an obvious viewpoint, and one which theistic scientists accept when they do science, i.e, miraculous explainations are not viable,

Except you can't actualy get that out of science useing any of the commonly accepted versions of the scientific method. The closest you can get is that they are not meaningful. Miracles as commonly described have, as far as our current level of knowlage is concernded, zero predictive power as do a number of versions of god.

Of course this may change in future. If you can create a series of universes for which the god value is know you can then compare them to ours and see which group it falls into. Time machines would be another approach if anyone could come up with a way to create a closed timelike curve that allowed you to go back before the machine's creation.

There are of course many religions that make more testable claims. Age of the earth, gods living on mount olympus etc but many avoid that these days. Weakly interacting massless particles are a bit of a problem.
 
The impression I get is that what is "wrong" with Richard Dawkins is that he doesn't treat the god-botherers with the respect that they think they deserve.
 
So, really, at some point an atheist is kind of required to either stay utterly quiet, or say "tough ****, theists, you're stuck in a small child's mindset" in one way or another.

Why is an atheist required to say anything? Some here say atheism is merely a lack of belief in something. So what exactly leads that into telling theists that their beliefs are stupid and delusional?

I think JoeEllison accounted for that just fine. He's not saying atheists have to tell theists the bad news. He's saying that if atheists are going to talk about their atheism at all, which they don't have to do, then they're going to have to tell theists, "in one way or another," that their beliefs are stupid and delusional.

I may be alone on this, but this is the part I hate most about being an atheist. Feeling like I have to be either totally stifled or incredibly rude. I guess most theists have the same problem, though, if they're being honest. And decent. If they're talking about their beliefs with someone other than their coreligionists, they're telling that person that that person's beliefs are wrong, "in one way or another." It wouldn't be so bad if people wouldn't take this garbage so seriously.
 
I think JoeEllison accounted for that just fine. He's not saying atheists have to tell theists the bad news. He's saying that if atheists are going to talk about their atheism at all, which they don't have to do, then they're going to have to tell theists, "in one way or another," that their beliefs are stupid and delusional.

I may be alone on this, but this is the part I hate most about being an atheist. Feeling like I have to be either totally stifled or incredibly rude. I guess most theists have the same problem, though, if they're being honest. And decent. If they're talking about their beliefs with someone other than their coreligionists, they're telling that person that that person's beliefs are wrong, "in one way or another." It wouldn't be so bad if people wouldn't take this garbage so seriously.

If you disagree along the lines of "I think that XYZ because of ABC" and the person who doesn't think XYZ takes offence then it's probably fair to say that they're being over-sensitive (assuming "ABC" isn't some kind of ad hom). Saying, however, something like "I think XYZ and it's so obvious to me that anyone who thinks otherwise is childish/delusional/stupid/has a 'mind virus' etc" strangely enough tends to offend anyone who doesn't think XYZ- it doesn't really matter what the "XYZ" happens to be.

I also think it shifts the burden of proof to the person claiming childishness, delusions, mind viruses etc.
 
Except you can't actualy get that out of science useing any of the commonly accepted versions of the scientific method.
I think here we're getting into the area of science as a meta-experiment. If the scientific method works consistently, sooner or later it becomes inductively reasonable to suppose that causes that are not in evidence and are not natural do not in fact exist.

Inductive rather than deductive, yes, but that's all you get in the real world.
 
If you disagree along the lines of "I think that XYZ because of ABC" and the person who doesn't think XYZ takes offence then it's probably fair to say that they're being over-sensitive (assuming "ABC" isn't some kind of ad hom). Saying, however, something like "I think XYZ and it's so obvious to me that anyone who thinks otherwise is childish/delusional/stupid/has a 'mind virus' etc" strangely enough tends to offend anyone who doesn't think XYZ- it doesn't really matter what the "XYZ" happens to be.

I also think it shifts the burden of proof to the person claiming childishness, delusions, mind viruses etc.

Yeah, someone oughta write a book about that ...
 

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