What's Wrong With Richard Dawkins?

I am a big Dawkins fan, but I can see the reasons (some justified, in my opinion, and others not) why he attracts so much criticism:

1. He is, arguably, the world's most famous atheist. (I'm sure there are more famous people who are atheists, but he may be the person most widely known to be an atheist.) That alone is going to attract attention.

2. He does not have much good to say for religion. Many atheists will defend the proposition that "there is no [evidence for] God" just as doggedly as Dawkins, but make conciliatory statements about how religion may be a good thing, etc. -- what Dan Dennett has called "belief in belief."

3. More specifically, he repeatedly challenges the social convention that you don't question people's religious beliefs or subject them to the same scrutiny as other statements about the world. When you challenge social conventions, some people are going to agree with you that the conventions are wrong and should change, but others are going to think you're rude.

4. At times, he can be a little tone deaf, and/or simply doesn't seem to care how he is perceived. Thus he says things that tend to antagonize people or be easily misinterpreted in a way that does. For example, I think the whole "bright" campaign was ill-conceived, and am shocked that people as smart as Dawkins and Dennett thought it would work. Similarly, Dawkins' comments about "child abuse" were probably a little reckless; yes, they've mostly been misinterpreted, but when you use inflammatory phrases like that you open the door to that kind of thing. Titling his book "The God Delusion" was deliberately provocative. You can explain all you want in the foreword about the dictionary definition of "delusion," but you can hardly be surprised that many people are going to interpret it as a slam on the intelligence and/or sanity of religious people. Ditto for the title of his BBC documentary "Root of All Evil?" (And yes, I know he says it wasn't his idea, but he still bears some responsbility for it.)

5. Most of us like to think of ourselves, and want others to think of us, as moderate, reasonable people. So there's a natural tendency on any issue, whether it's atheism, political ideology, Star Trek fandom, or whatever to point to someone else on "your" side and say, "look, I'm a reasonable, moderate person, not a fanatic extremist like that guy." Mostly by virtue of points 1-4, Dawkins gets put in that role for a lot of people. I'm not saying it's dishonest for people to do that; most of them probably have real, substantive disagreements with the guy.
 
The funny thing is the "religion causes bad stuff" argument is completely a sidetrack. He could have left it out of the book completely. I think the only reason he has it is because the religious nutjobs use the same argument against "darwinists" to show how evil they are.

The bottom line RELIGION ISN'T TRUE. That's the main thrust of TGD.
 
I am a big Dawkins fan, but I can see the reasons (some justified, in my opinion, and others not) why he attracts so much criticism:

[...]

I think you nailed it.

1. Fame -- Though I've heard of the other two, I can't name their work.

2. Anti-religion -- His choice of words very often lack tact. eg:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viruses_of_the_Mind

And, as an atheist, I don't want to be represented by anybody. Atheism isn't a club. Not that I think Dawkins has set out to represent me -- but other people see him as representative.
 
As an atheist I don't believe in Richard Dawkins although I admire the book that has his name on the front .
 
I am a big Dawkins fan, but I can see the reasons (some justified, in my opinion, and others not) why he attracts so much criticism:

1. He is, arguably, the world's most famous atheist. (I'm sure there are more famous people who are atheists, but he may be the person most widely known to be an atheist.) That alone is going to attract attention.

2. He does not have much good to say for religion. Many atheists will defend the proposition that "there is no [evidence for] God" just as doggedly as Dawkins, but make conciliatory statements about how religion may be a good thing, etc. -- what Dan Dennett has called "belief in belief."

3. More specifically, he repeatedly challenges the social convention that you don't question people's religious beliefs or subject them to the same scrutiny as other statements about the world. When you challenge social conventions, some people are going to agree with you that the conventions are wrong and should change, but others are going to think you're rude.

4. At times, he can be a little tone deaf, and/or simply doesn't seem to care how he is perceived. Thus he says things that tend to antagonize people or be easily misinterpreted in a way that does. For example, I think the whole "bright" campaign was ill-conceived, and am shocked that people as smart as Dawkins and Dennett thought it would work. Similarly, Dawkins' comments about "child abuse" were probably a little reckless; yes, they've mostly been misinterpreted, but when you use inflammatory phrases like that you open the door to that kind of thing. Titling his book "The God Delusion" was deliberately provocative. You can explain all you want in the foreword about the dictionary definition of "delusion," but you can hardly be surprised that many people are going to interpret it as a slam on the intelligence and/or sanity of religious people. Ditto for the title of his BBC documentary "Root of All Evil?" (And yes, I know he says it wasn't his idea, but he still bears some responsbility for it.)

5. Most of us like to think of ourselves, and want others to think of us, as moderate, reasonable people. So there's a natural tendency on any issue, whether it's atheism, political ideology, Star Trek fandom, or whatever to point to someone else on "your" side and say, "look, I'm a reasonable, moderate person, not a fanatic extremist like that guy." Mostly by virtue of points 1-4, Dawkins gets put in that role for a lot of people. I'm not saying it's dishonest for people to do that; most of them probably have real, substantive disagreements with the guy.



Can't accept that analysis. It's too smart and on target.
 
I am one of those atheists who dislike Dawkins, from my point of view;

1. He is condescending
2. He lacks empathy towards people who differ from his beliefs/thoughts
3. He is socially inept
4. He is very bad at debating (just look how bad he did on OReilly).
5. He doesn´t know how to hold a conversation with his audiance, he is argumentative.
6. He knows nothing about philosophy and can´t see the whole picture.

I could go on and on. Everytime I see him, I just feel disgust. I wish he could learn from Carl Sagan and the way he approached a non scientific public. Sagan was nice, understanding, easy going, and the most important thing, he wanted people to think critically and showed them how to do it. Dawkins only wants to create controversy and call stupid anyone who doesn´t agree with him.
 
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One more thing. I agree, he should go back to Oxford and just write about Biology. There, he is number one, he is great. :)
 
Dawkins has been much more successful in bringing this issue into the public eye than Sagan. We need someone who is willing to stand up and tell the truth in a way that garners some attention.

I think you are being very very harsh Luzz. You sound more like a religious apologist than an atheist and some of your points imho are just wrong.
 
Are you familiar with the Milgram experiment?

I am and I tend to think the real problem sits in our tendency to believe authority figures, a fact that religion is built on, so replacing religion in that statement with "blind belief in authority" would probably be more accurate. The point remains however.

I think in regard to this issue, Dawkins is guilty of oversimplification; there was a thread a while ago about his claim that religion was the "primary" cause of a whole list of conflicts; it degenerated into a slap-fight over what "primary" means, but it was demonstrated to my satisfaction, at least, that his claim did not stand up to scrutiny.

Dawkins often talks about how there is no value in "totting up" the good and bad that different beliefs are responsible for - it is irrelevant to its truth - but people he debates bring it up almost every time he has a debate or discussion, and he is not the kind of person to avoid a point in a debate.
 
I am one of those atheists who dislike Dawkins, from my point of view;

1. He is condescending
2. He lacks empathy towards people who differ from his beliefs/thoughts
3. He is socially inept
4. He is very bad at debating (just look how bad he did on OReilly).
5. He doesn´t know how to hold a conversation with his audiance, he is argumentative.
6. He knows nothing about philosophy and can´t see the whole picture.

I could go on and on. Everytime I see him, I just feel disgust. I wish he could learn from Carl Sagan and the way he approached a non scientific public. Sagan was nice, understanding, easy going, and the most important thing, he wanted people to think critically and showed them how to do it. Dawkins only wants to create controversy and call stupid anyone who doesn´t agree with him.

Are you talking about the same guy? We're talking about Richard Dawkins, right? He is probably one of the most eloquent speakers around and I have never heard or read of him calling anyone "stupid". And can you explain what you mean by "can't see the whole picture"?

Sagan, was great and is one of my heroes. But he fought a different fight than Dawkins and being nice and easy going may not be the only way to reach the objective.
 
I think you are being very very harsh Luzz. You sound more like a religious apologist than an atheist and some of your points imho are just wrong.

How are atheists supposed to sound? Is there a rulebook that I somehow missed seeing?

Ginarley, I'm not inherently opposed to bringing up the evil done in the name of religion; but it's no good brining something up if you're then going to grossly oversimplify the matter to make rhetorical points. "In a world without religion, there would have been no ... Northern Ireland Troubles (no label by which to distinguish the two 'communities', and no sectarian schools to teach the children historic hatreds — they would simply be one community.)" Astonishing; here are some words for Dawkins: nationalism and unionism. Obviously religion is one motivating factor, but trying to put that entire mess on the doorstep of religion is hugely disingenuous, IMO, and just makes him look bad.
 
@westprog: How does Dawkins dismiss the wrongdoings of atheists? I've read all his stuff. I've never seen him dismiss or deny the existence of immoral or dangerous atheists. However what I have seen is discussion about whether or not atheism was the cause of the evil deeds done by people. And about this, he is correct. A non-belief cannot ban an active cause.

Roger doesn't have to be a good person for Jerry to fail to prove a point.

@Civilized Worm: Dawkins doesn't say Darwinism. He says "Darwinian Evolution." It's just a vector.

@Luzz:

He's not condescending as far as I can tell. Unless you think a lack of "but remember I love you anyway" is condescending.

Lack of empathy? Heck no. He uses empathy all the time. He refrains from calling people "stupid" until absolutely necessary. He's more than willing to draw lines between ignorance, negligence and stupidity that places no blame on the merely ignorant.

Socially inept? Well excuse those of us who don't want the whole world to laugh with us all the damn time. Ooh, he doesn't have too many friends, he's unconventional, that means he deserves it. Stop that BS.

WTF: O'Reilly show wasn't a debate, it was an interview. And he did fine. Reserve debate criticisms for, I dunno, actual debates. Sheesh.

Nothing of philosophy, huh? Now you're just throwing things out. Look, either contribute to this conversation, or don't. Dawkins has not made it his job to discuss philosophy, but rather truth. Your crappy point is a complete non sequitor.
 
The problem with Dawkins is that he never achieves anything more than rah-rahs from people who already know what he's going to say. Therefore, he contributes nothing of value.

Also he's a bigot, and people who say "it's OK to be a bigot if you're right" ought to know better.
 
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JohnTheRevelator asked why some people didn't like Dawkins, and Luzz gave a numbered list of reasons why he, Luzz, didn't. This is what most people call, "contributing to the conversation," Aerik.
 
The funny thing is the "religion causes bad stuff" argument is completely a sidetrack. He could have left it out of the book completely. I think the only reason he has it is because the religious nutjobs use the same argument against "darwinists" to show how evil they are.

The bottom line RELIGION ISN'T TRUE. That's the main thrust of TGD.


Thing is, whilst the "religion causes bad stuff" argument is certainly irrelevant to atheist reasoning/opinion/belief, it's highly relevant to the atheist movement. If you're not content merely to be an atheist, but must be a proselytising atheist, you have to believe that religion is in principle harmful, absence of religion is in principle beneficial, and that therefore society will necessarily be improved if you can convert everyone to your opinion.

Sadly for Dawkins and other proselytising atheists, we cannot base this belief on any evidence. We don't know whether people are more or less likely to be free, moral, happy, intelligent or even educated, if {atheism|agnosticism|religion} is accepted by {everyone|most|some|few|no-one}, {tomorrow|in the foreseeable future|in the distant future}. I would suggest that, short of such a handy device as a universe replicator, we have no serious means of investigating the matter. We can guess, but we don't (yet) know enough about human minds and human society for our guesses to be worth much.

So, proselytising atheism must remain a matter of faith, which is exactly what proselytising atheist scientists have to deny.

I don't think it's so difficult to see why many atheists dislike the missionary mindset.
 
Sadly for Dawkins and other proselytising atheists, we cannot base this belief on any evidence.

Have you been watching the news this week?

The very fact that there are religious nutters at all levels that want to persuade people that God wants them to be satisfied with their genetic defects is precisely the evidence that you claim is lacking.

Sadly, I fear that reality is not a factor in your argument. Higher truths (=lies) seem to carry more weight.
 
The problem with Dawkins is that he never achieves anything more than rah-rahs from people who already know what he's going to say. Therefore, he contributes nothing of value.

Also he's a bigot, and people who say "it's OK to be a bigot if you're right" ought to know better.

How profound.

Is there a playground missing you somewhere?
 
Just my opinion, but what I have seen is that Dawkins is much more talked about than read. He is accused of many arguments that he never makes, so most of the dislike appears to be dislike of a straw Dawkins, not the real one.
And straw Dawkins just like straw evolution theory scientists is promoted by organizations such as the Discovery Institute and movies like Expelled. So it is no surprise many people including atheists would have a lot of false beliefs about him.

Unfortunately being an atheist doesn't guarantee you have adopted a skeptical nature about everything.
 

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