AE911Truth Watch

AE 911 Truth appreciates input pointing out the errors in their presentation, as Judy Shelton noted:
"Blender Head, you touched off a raging debate among AE Team members! Good work, you drew our attention to something we need to fix. Here's the outcome of all the back and forth:"
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3620559#post3620559

They take the time to discuss what the change should be before changing the PowerPoint.
If you think their revised statement is incorrect, state your reason or question as Blender Head did.

My reasons and questions can be found at http://ae911truth.info .

Someone from Vancouver wrote me recently and said that he gave the address of my website at one of Gage's lectures there. Gage said that he was aware of my website and it was only assassinating his character.

If you have Mr. Gage's ear, please inform him that the only way I am assassinating his character is by showing what shoddy logic and research he foists upon any audience that will have him. If he thinks I'm assassinating his character, then he should stop saying such character-revealing things in public.
 
<snipped>

Note: I've snipped the entirety of your post, Christopher7, because it is simply repetitive nonsense with no substance. If all you are going to do is continue to parrot the same nonsense over and over again, without ever providing anything but your uneducated opinion on the matters under discussion, I see no reason to put any more effort into my responses to you, so I will simply repeat

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3648192&postcount=651
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3656174&postcount=662
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3659170&postcount=666
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3665546&postcount=682
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3666042&postcount=686

Those cover your numerous errors, omissions, deliberate cherry picking, dishonest "quoting" in which you rewrote words to suit your purposes, and your various and sundry other nonsensical unsupported allegations viz Kevin Ryan (the liar and fraud).


Further,

Lastly, as I have said at least a couple of times previously, the evidence suggests that Ryan was fired for writing a letter from his workplace, using his work e-mail, using his work credentials that:

a) made reference to his work for UL;
b) was signed using his work title;
c) created the misleading impression that he was speaking as a representative of UL;
d) did not represent the views of UL;
e) was not authorized by UL;
f) did not refer to matters within Ryan's area of employment;
g) inappropriately commented on tests UL had done for its client;
h) exhibited extremely poor judgement;
i) caused harm to UL's reputation;
j) caused harm to UL's relationship with its client; and
k) made deceptive and misleading statements.


Once again, if you have any evidence to the contrary, now would be a good time to present it. So far, you've been remarkably and obviously reluctant to do so.


Spitfire, Arus, funk de fino, and jonnyclueless, immediately above, are right, as are several others, including Minadin, BillyRayValentine, Disbelief, AZCat, ukdave, et al further above.

And Kevin Ryan remains a liar and a fraud.
Also, you have repeatedly glossed over/ignored my queries relating to your apparent concession in your previous posts that Kevin Ryan misinterpreted the cherry picked e-mail exchange that he belatedly attached to his Second Amended Complaint, and your apparent concession that the conclusions he drew from it were wrong, if not deliberately dishonest.

Please address that point directly.

Lastly, Kevin Ryan continues to tout himself as a "whistleblower" even though the court has found decisively that he was no such thing, and he continues to solicit money from people to fund his fight against UL even though his lawsuit was dismissed many months ago and has no hope in hell of ever being reconstituted.

What are your thoughts about those particular matters of fact?
 
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If that were true, "we" would never have been a part of it at all.
Do you agree that the "we" includes Mr. Gayle? [remember, he is speaking to Mr. Gayle]

No, he would be asking for their agreement and not stating it as if they already agreed. By using "we," you are creating the impression of speaking for the group and not just yourself. At least, that is what most adults do.
You are referring to the first two statements. the other three are obviously Ryan's opinion. "I'm sure we can all agree . . . " "I think we can all agree . . . '
Do you agree?

Again, by stating his position and using the UL name and stationary, he is speaking as a representative of the company and not as an individual.
Whether or not Mr. Gayle thought that is immaterial. The Rense article is irrefutable proof that it can be misconstrued as speaking for the company.
You are side stepping the point and refusing to answer the question:
Do you think Mr. Gayle was mislead into thinking Ryan was speaking for UL?
 
I think he was probably utterly confused as to why he was getting such a correspondence from someone inside UL and gave either Mr. Knoblach or Mr. Chapin a ring to see what the heck was going on.
 
Do you agree that the "we" includes Mr. Gayle? [remember, he is speaking to Mr. Gayle]
It could or it could not. It could mean the company as a whole.
You are referring to the first two statements. the other three are obviously Ryan's opinion. "I'm sure we can all agree . . . " "I think we can all agree . . . '
Do you agree?
Yes, I can agree to that, but it's still irrelevant to the court case.
You are side stepping the point and refusing to answer the question:
Do you think Mr. Gayle was mislead into thinking Ryan was speaking for UL?
Whether or not Mr. Gayle thought that is irrelevant to the court case. The fact is that someone could and did misrepresent Kevin's statements as UL statements as I have already shown. That is the basis for that part of the court case.
 
Note: I've snipped the entirety of your post
and gave your opinions about me. ICCL

Please address this point directly:

In these three sentences, is Ryan expressing his own opinion?
Does "we" include Mr. Gayle?

"I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind"
I think we can all agree that even un-fireproofed steel will not melt until reaching red-hot temperatures of nearly 3000F”
I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind”

Please address that point directly.
Ryan says Mr. Knoblauch came to South Bend in 2001 and told the entire staff that UL had certified the steel used in the WTC buildings.
http://www.physics911.net/kevinryan

Knoblauch misstated UL's certification of sample assemblies.

Knoblauch to Ryan

1. . . . . We test to the code requirements. and the steel clearly met those requirements and exceeded them. In practice the steel stood longer than expected.

2. In the case of this steel, a major factor is the fireproofing sprayed on the outside. We tested the steel with all the required fireproofing on and it did beautifully.
. . . . . . . . we can give an opinion only on the test sample which was indeed properly coated.

Knoblauch is still saying the steel rather than using the correct terminology; assemblies.

Furthermore, Knoblauch is saying the steel sample UL tested met the code requirements and in practice the steel [in the Trade Towers] stood longer than expected.

i.e. the test sample was an assembly made to the specifications of whatever stood longer than expected in the Trade Towers.

If you interpret this differently, please state your reason.


Lastly, Kevin Ryan continues to tout himself as a "whistleblower" even though the court has found decisively that he was no such thing, and he continues to solicit money* from people to fund his fight against UL even though his lawsuit was dismissed many months ago and has no hope in hell of ever being reconstituted.
As a matter of law, Ryan is not a whistleblower. I respectfully disagree with the Judge's narrow interpretation of the law.
*Source? I read somewhere that Ryan was no longer accepting donations.
 
and gave your opinions about me. ICCL

Please address this point directly:

In these three sentences, is Ryan expressing his own opinion?
Does "we" include Mr. Gayle?

"I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind"
I think we can all agree that even un-fireproofed steel will not melt until reaching red-hot temperatures of nearly 3000F”
I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind”

There is a fatal irony in your post, one of which you are probably unaware, and that is that Mr. Ryan cannot be using the word "we" in the manner you expect.

We know this because Mr. Ryan criticized my use of the "editorial we" in my whitepaper on Dr. Griffin and the scientific method, as seen in this letter in the "Journal" of 9/11 Studies. In the letter, Mr. Ryan betrays his ignorance of this usage, and reveals that there are only two uses of "we" that he understands:
  • "We" referring to a group of individuals, in expressing a collective opinion, and
  • they "Royal We," which is a presumptive special case of the above.
We (that is to say, you and I) should agree that Mr. Ryan cannot have been using the "Royal We" in his letter to Mr. Gayle, therefore he must have been using the former interpretation. Thus, Mr. Ryan cannot have been expressing only his own opinion.

Instead, Mr. Ryan must have been referring to a group. And his letter was sent on corporate letterhead. It does indeed appear that Mr. Ryan was attempting to present his opinions as though they represented an official, considered corporate viewpoint.

However, regardless of his intent, the simple fact is that he expressed his opinions in a manner that could reasonably have been interpreted as coming from his employer. That's a dismissable offense at every corporation I know of.

Don't use corporate letterhead unless you know what you're doing. End of story.
 
As a matter of law, Ryan is not a whistleblower. I respectfully disagree with the Judge's narrow interpretation of the law.


From the judge's ruling dismissing Ryan's suit:

There are two main issues before the court. The first is whether Indiana’s whistle blower statute, Ind. Code § 22-5-3-3, protects the sort of activities that allegedly led to Mr. Ryan’s firing. The second is whether Indiana’s public policy exception to the doctrine of at-will employee applies to the sort of rights and duties he was allegedly exercising prior to his dismissal. . . .

In cases involving private employers under public contract, Indiana’s private employer whistle blower statute, Indiana Code § 22-5-3-3, protects the employee from discharge or other disciplinary action for having reported “in writing” a violation of federal, state, or local law or regulation, or a misuse of public resources. Id. . . .

The key issue is whether, considering all of the facts alleged in the Amended Complaint, the court can infer that is not merely conceivable but plausible that his letters contained the sort of information that would qualify them as protected reports under the statute. That is, did the written reports allege a violation of federal, state, or local laws or regulations, or a misuse of public resources, regarding UL’s execution of its contract with NIST?

In a claim under Indiana’s private employer whistle blower statute the existence of a violation or misuse of public resources is nearly as much at the center of a wrongful discharge claim as the existence of a conspiracy charge is to an antitrust claim under § 1 of the Sherman Act. See Bell Atlantic, 127 S.Ct. at 1964. . . .

The whistle blower statute is not aimed at protecting plaintiffs who believe that their employer’s conduct needs to be investigated because a thorough inquiry might reveal violations of law or regulation or misuse or public resources. Rather it seeks to protect employees who report that, in their employer’s execution of a public contract, a law or regulation has been broken or public resources misused. At a minimum, a claim under the whistle blower statute must provide some grounds for inferring (1) that such conduct occurred and (2) that this conduct was reported. Bell Atlantic requires this much. . . .

In short, the letters [Ryan] sent to NIST and UL state his concerns about the adequacy of NIST’s investigation and, by extension, UL’s. However, UL’s competence is irrelevant to a whistle blower claim.

The Indiana Court of Appeals has concluded that a misuse of public resources under the private whistle blower statute “contemplates a direct expenditure or use of public funds, property, or resources for a purpose other than that contemplated by the contract in question.” Coutee v. Lafayette Neighborhood Housing Servs., Inc., 792 N.E.2d 907, 914 (Ind. Ct. App. 2003). In this respect, misuse would include the spending of funds for personal use or for any purpose not allowable under the contract, “whether legitimate or not.” Id. However, it would not include the waste of money through mismanagement or incompetence. So even if UL’s failure to investigate Mr. Ryan’s concerns about terrorist attacks or arrive at his conclusions could be termed a waste of money, as Mr. Ryan so evidently believes it was, its conduct was not the sort of wrongdoing, the report of which the private employer whistle blower statute is aimed to protect. In short, Mr. Ryan has not alleged a statutory claim. The Amended Complaint provides no reasonable basis for inferring that UL broke any laws or federal regulations, or spent public resources on an unallowed purpose. . . . Even under the most favorable reading of the Amended Complaint, in which the court accepts all of his factual allegations as true and draws all reasonable inferences in his favor, Mr. Ryan’s right to relief under Indiana’s private employer whistle blower statute is speculative at best. . . .

Only earlier this year, the Indiana Supreme Court reaffirmed the narrowness of the public policy exception. Meyers v. Meyers, 861 N.E.2d 704, 706 (Ind. 2007). The court noted that the Frampton exception was based on express statutory language prohibiting employers from evading the obligations of the Indiana Worker’s Compensation Act. Id. The Act provided that “no rule, regulation, or other device” shall relieve an employer from its obligations, and the Frampton court had found the threat of discharge to be such a device. Id. (quoting Frampton, 297 N.E.2d at 427-28). The McClanahan exception was based on the recognition that the absence of a remedy would encourage criminal conduct. Id.

Following the Indiana Supreme Court’s lead, the Indiana Court of Appeals has generally allowed the public policy exception only in cases involving worker’s compensation claims or in cases in which a plaintiff was “allegedly terminated in retaliation for refusing to violate a legal obligation that carried penal consequences.” Id. at 707 (citing McGarrity v. Berlin Metals, 774 N.E.2d 71, 78-79 (Ind. Ct. App. 2002) (refusal to file fraudulent tax return); Haas Carriage, Inc. v. Berna, 651 N.E.2d 284, 288 (Ind. Ct. App. 1995) (refusing to haul unlawful road); Call v. Scott Brass, Inc., 553 N.E.2d 1225, 1230 (Ind. Ct. App. 1990) (refusing to disregard jury summons)).

Likewise, in keeping with this narrow view of the public policy exception, Indiana appellate courts have not allowed wrongful discharge lawsuits based on alleged retaliation for filing an unemployment claim, Lawson v Haven Hubbard Homes, Inc., 551 N.E.2d 855, 860 (Ind. Ct App. 1990), for refusing to submit to a polygraph examination, Hamblen v. Danners, Inc., 478 N.E.2d 926, 929 (Ind. Ct. App. 1985), for internally reporting misconduct affecting the validity of a drug company’s federal drug safety reports, Campbell v. Eli Lilly & Co., 413 N.E.2d 1054, 1061-62 (Ind. Ct. App. 1980), and for reporting to a company official a supervisor’s alleged illegal kickbacks, Martin v. Platt, 386 N.E.2d 1026, 1028 (Ind. Ct. App. 1979). (Aside from Lawson, these cases were decided prior to McClanahan. However, in Meyers, the Indiana Supreme Court cited all four as examples of the decisions establishing that the public policy exception is “quite a limited exception.” Meyers, 861 N.E.2d at 707.)[bolding mine; footnotes omitted]


Please explain, if you would, Christopher7, exactly how you feel that the judge misinterpreted the law and/or misapplied precedent in his ruling. For your convenience I've linked the relevant code and cases.
 
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There is a fatal irony in your post, one of which you are probably unaware, and that is that Mr. Ryan cannot be using the word "we" in the manner you expect.

We know this because Mr. Ryan criticized my use of the "editorial we" in my whitepaper on Dr. Griffin and the scientific method, as seen in this letter in the "Journal" of 9/11 Studies. In the letter, Mr. Ryan betrays his ignorance of this usage, and reveals that there are only two uses of "we" that he understands:
Ryan said: "It is not clear weather this use of "we" means . . . "
"We" referring to a group of individuals, in expressing a collective opinion, and [or]
the "Royal We," which is a presumptive special case of the above.
He did not say these were the only two uses of "we".

It's a moot point anyway because the key words here are:
"I'm sure" - personal opinion
"I think" - not sure
and "we can all agree" - a possibility; does not mean "we do agree"

Ryan is definitely NOT speaking for UL in these three statements.

However, regardless of his intent, the simple fact is that he expressed his opinions in a manner that could reasonably have been interpreted as coming from his employer.
There is some merit to this argument.
However
Ryan used the UL letterhead and identified himself as the manager of a UL environmental lab. [someone with a vested interest in UL's reputation]
Mr. Gayle knows that the
manager of an environmental lab does not speak for the CEO and the Fire Protection business manager.
Furthermore, Mr. Gayle was working closely with UL and knew their views.

"I felt the need to contact you directly."[go around management] indicates that Ryan was speaking as an employee of UL who was not satisfied with the response from management and was concerned for the reputation of the company.

He states his primary concern thusly:
I'm aware of UL's attempts to help, including performing tests on models of the floor assemblies. But the results of these tests appear to indicate that the buildings should have easily withstood the thermal stress caused by pools of burning jet fuel.

and ends:
Please do what you can to quickly eliminate the confusion regarding the ability of jet fuel fires to soften or melt structural steel.


 
respectfully disagree with what? Spifire as you how you feel that the judge misinterpreted the law? and you respectfully disagree?

Chris, you are a a legal disadvantage. you're repeating of statements over and over again, only proves you do not know what you are talking abut. The fact that you want to argue legal jargon with a lawyer, shows that you are ill prepared to understand what the judge ruled.
 
I'm going to leave it at "Respectfully disagree".


In other words, you feel that the judge should have ignored several recent precedents from the Indiana Court of Appeals, the Indiana Supreme Court, and the United States Supreme Court, merely because you wish the case had been decided differently. :rolleyes: To quote LashL, "You really don't understand this law thing, do you?"
 
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C7 said:
Do you agree that the "we" includes Mr. Gayle? [remember, he is speaking to Mr. Gayle]
It could or it could not. It could mean the company as a whole.

C7 said:
You are referring to the first two statements. the other three are obviously Ryan's opinion. "I'm sure we can all agree . . . " "I think we can all agree . . . '
Do you agree?
Yes, I can agree to that
Thank you.
That leaves:
"We know that the steel components were certified to ASTM E119"
"And as we all agree, the steel applied met those specifications"

He is stating a points of agreement. This could be interpreted as Ryan expressing his opinion or speaking for UL
Since the other 3 statements are clearly not Ryan speaking for UL, the reader should not assume Ryan was speaking for UL in the first 2 statements.
Ryan opened his letter with "I felt the need to contact you directly."
[go around management] indicating that he was speaking for himself.
As a whole, the letter did not give the impression that Ryan was speaking for UL.

but it's still irrelevant to the court case.

Whether or not Mr. Gayle thought that is irrelevant to the court case.The fact is that someone could and did misrepresent Kevin's statements as UL statements as I have already shown. That is the basis for that part of the court case.
You just said this is irrelevant to the court case. Make up your mind. :boggled:
We're debating weather or not Ryan created a misleading impression that he was speaking for UL. That is part of the court case but played no part in the ruling.

Just because someone somewhere ignored the disclaimer "Ryan made it clear he is speaking for himself only, not on behalf of his laboratory or the company" and got it wrong, it doesn't mean the letter was misleading.
It means that person was being misleading.
 
Just because someone somewhere ignored the disclaimer "Ryan made it clear he is speaking for himself only, not on behalf of his laboratory or the company" and got it wrong, it doesn't mean the letter was misleading.
It means that person was being misleading.

You're right, Kevin Ryan was being misleading because he wrote an opinion on UL letterhead. This is, of course, a fireable offense since it gives the impression that he is stating an opinion for the company as its representative.
 
You're right, Kevin Ryan was being misleading because he wrote an opinion on UL letterhead. This is, of course, a fireable offense since it gives the impression that he is stating an opinion for the company as its representative.
No
911 Truth contacted Ryan to verify the authenticity of the letter and posted it with the disclaimer "Ryan made it clear he is speaking for himself only, not on behalf of his laboratory or the company".
It could not be more clear.
Ryan and 911 Truth did not mislead anyone.
 
No
911 Truth contacted Ryan to verify the authenticity of the letter and posted it with the disclaimer "Ryan made it clear he is speaking for himself only, not on behalf of his laboratory or the company".
It could not be more clear.
Ryan and 911 Truth did not mislead anyone.


No. Ryan's email was in fact first posted on septembereleventh.org. Here is the site's news archive page for November 11, 2004.

Rather than any sort of disclaimer, the only editorial comment that appears is:

The following letter was sent today by Kevin Ryan of Underwriters Laboratories to Frank Gayle of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST). Underwriters Laboratories is the company that certified the steel componets used in the constuction of the World Trade Center towers. The information in this letter is of great importance. [bolding mine]


911truth.org posted Ryan's email the following day (having taken time to confirm its authenticity). 911T's editorial comments (see here) are much more extensive; several paragraphs before the disclaimer you cite, the following passage appears:

While Ryan's letter does not constitute an official statement from Underwriters Laboratories, it suggests incipient disagreements between UL and NIST about the true cause of the WTC collapses. [bolding mine]


Further, Ryan's email was parroted on several other sites and forums, with no disclaimer whatsoever, and in some cases with little or no comment.

So please explain, if you would, Christopher7, how Ryan didn't create a misleading impression that he was speaking for UL, or that UL disagreed with NIST.
 
No
911 Truth contacted Ryan to verify the authenticity of the letter and posted it with the disclaimer "Ryan made it clear he is speaking for himself only, not on behalf of his laboratory or the company".
It could not be more clear.
Ryan and 911 Truth did not mislead anyone.

Chris, do you or have you ever worked for a large corporation? Do you know that most companies have a strict policy against using company letterheads for personal correspondence of any type? Can you figure out why this may be? It absolutely does not matter what kind of disclaimer Ryan puts in, it is a fireable offense. Once you figure out why it is against the rules, you can figure out why he deservedly got fired.

Do you think Ryan knew this policy? I have known about it for the 12 years I have worked at a large company, so there would be an expectation that he would know. So, if Ryan knew this policy, why would he have written on the company letter unless he had the intention to deceive?
 
Chris, do you or have you ever worked for a large corporation? Do you know that most companies have a strict policy against using company letterheads for personal correspondence of any type? Can you figure out why this may be? It absolutely does not matter what kind of disclaimer Ryan puts in, it is a fireable offense. Once you figure out why it is against the rules, you can figure out why he deservedly got fired.

Do you think Ryan knew this policy? I have known about it for the 12 years I have worked at a large company, so there would be an expectation that he would know. So, if Ryan knew this policy, why would he have written on the company letter unless he had the intention to deceive?


Just to clarify: Although Ryan's communication is often referred to as a "letter," it was actually an email. From UL's initial brief supporting the company's motion to dismiss Ryan's suit:

Because the letter was sent by Plaintiff using UL’s e-mail system, it bore his company title and thus clearly identified Plaintiff as a UL employee.


I've read somewhere that Ryan claims his title was added automatically by the company's email system; likely this was simply his .sig file appended at the end.

Even granting that, however, what Ryan did was still the electronic equivalent of using company letterhead, and thus was no less of a firing offense.
 
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Ryan says Mr. Knoblauch came to South Bend in 2001 and told the entire staff that UL had certified the steel used in the WTC buildings

Yes, Ryan says that. But Ryan is a known liar and fraud so I do not take anything he says at face value. Corroborating evidence is required. Got any?


As a matter of law, Ryan is not a whistleblower. I respectfully disagree with the Judge's narrow interpretation of the law.


You can "respectfully disagree" all you like but the judge correctly intepreted the law, in my educated, informed and professional opinion, based on years of relevant education, information and legal experience - as opposed to your uneducated, uninformed, and non-professional opinion based on nothing but a faith-based desire to cling to an unfounded, unsupported conspiracy theory.

Spitfire very kindly pointed out the salient portions of the judgment for you and invited you to specify what you think the judge got wrong, and you refuse to do so.

Unless you can articulate a legally sound, cogent argument in support of a different conclusion, your "disagreement" with the judge's decision means absolutely nothing, and you must accept the reality that Ryan is not a "whistleblower" at all.

His continued self-description as such, and your continued description of him as such, is dishonest.


*Source? I read somewhere that Ryan was no longer accepting donations.


Ryan's request for donations for his "legal defense fund" for his failed litigation against UL and the Paypal link to it remain operational at his website, which is linked no fewer than three times on the "scholars" for truth and justice website. It is also still actively linked via numerous other websites, mostly those of other conspiracy fantasists like AE911, Hufschmid's site, nutjob Kevin Barrett's site, etc. A quick Google search on ultruth.com will quickly show you that.

The front page of his site is titled "Legal Defense Fund for Kevin Ryan" in which he requests donations to fund his litigation against UL. The second (and only other) page of his site - which has been updated as recently as April 2008, by the way - prominently features a link back to "Legal Defense Fund" page and his request for donations.

I don't know where you read that he was no longer accepting donations but it seems quite obvious to me that that is not the case.
 
No. Ryan's email was in fact first posted on septembereleventh.org. Here is the site's news archive page for November 11, 2004.
Point made.

Ryan should have included the disclaimer with his letter and he should have corrected those who implied he was speaking for UL.
 

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