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10 story hole in WTC 7

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You know, there are times I feel bad because I went and found those patents for you guys. I knew you'd latch onto them like a drowning man with a life preserver.


But then I realize, questions such as this one serve to show that, even when a document might support your position, you guys still don't read the darn things. How do I know this? Because if you'd actually read any of these documents, as opposed to just looking at the pretty pictures, you'd know that they give some guidelines for how large the devices must be to cut certain dimensions of metal.

And I'm not going to point you to where they say that. I want you to either go and actually read it for yourself, or continue to display your unwillingness to do even that little thing to prove your point, so that all and sundry here can see exactly how much of an intellectual fraud a twoofer really is.


erm do you really think me or others would not be able to find those patents?
pls, and what patent exactly are you talking about ? patent nr.? cause there are diffrent patents.

and why do you have troubles presenting exactly why you think they will not work or would be to big?
 
Read the article (including the experiment).
I scanned the atricel and read portions of that double talk.I didn't see any experiment that would explain how the temp reached 2,000 °F in the first place.
Where is the experiment and did it explain how the temp reached 2,000 °F?
 
I scanned the atricel and read portions of that double talk.I didn't see any experiment that would explain how the temp reached 2,000 °F in the first place.
Where is the experiment and did it explain how the temp reached 2,000 °F?
The article (if you ever bother to actually read it) talks about the chemical reactions (oxidation) that starts at room temperature and goes up from there. The decomposing gypsum in the piles (drywall) accelerates this causing more heat.
The other interesting thing about "iron fire" (fast oxidation of iron) is that it creates a "vacuum" of sorts that "sucks" oxygen to itself. Ordinary carbonaceous "fire" creates carbon monoxide (CO) or carbon dioxide (CO2), which are gases that can take the place of consumed oxygen (02) gas. Carbon monoxide production releases two molecules of CO gas per one O2 molecule consumed. Thus, such a carbon fire requires a "convection" current to remove the hot carbon mon/dioxide (out the top) to make room for more cold oxygen to be brought in (at the bottom).
By contrast, an "iron fire" converts the oxygen gas (and possibly also nitrogen gas, but that is tangent) into a solid (rust). Thus, the burning iron metal effectively sucks atmospheric oxygen INTO the pile of burning metal, regardless of convection currents. Convection currents are a strong mechanism for REMOVING heat from a fire. Of course convection currents will also be present even in a huge iron pile furnace, but a result of direct conversion of oxygen gas into a solid (rust) is that there are weaker convection currents and that means that the heat of combustion escapes more slowly from the metal fire furnace than from a carbonaceous fire furnace. Thus, since the heat of combustion does not leave with the combustion products, a metal-air furnace could become much "hotter" faster than a carbon-air furnace of the same scale (e.g., at the same oxygen demand level).
Theoretically, there is no limit upon the temperature that such a large air-metal-fire could attain. It could, in theory, attain a temperature high enough to not only melt iron, but also to boil (vaporize) iron, but not at the same location at the same time. (You cannot maintain solid, liquid, and gaseous iron at the same location, because "melting" and "vaporization" occur at greatly different temperatures). The difficulty with that however is that the molten (burning) iron would tend to settle into a pool, having a smaller surface area (on its top surface only), thus reducing its rate of oxidation.

Read, educate.
 
The article talks about the chemical reactions (oxidation) that starts at room temperature and goes up from there.
Nowhere in the article does it say iron can start at room temperature and "go up from there" to 2,000 °F.
If it could, all iron would self destruct.
Nowhere in that article does it explain how the temperature got to 2,000
°F in the first place!

The decomposing gypsum in the piles (drywall) accelerates this causing more heat.
That is as unprecedented and unproven theory.
 
Here's the closest thing i could find:
Introduction to wildland fire: pg 23
Smoldering ground fires . . . can raise mineral soil temperatures above 300 °C (570 °F) for several hours with peak temperatures near 600 °C (1100 °F)

Is that seriously the nearest thing you can find? It could hardly be more irrelevant. Ground fires are not insulated. There's nothing to stop the heat escaping by convection, so the temperature doesn't get very high.

The situation you're supposed to be looking at is an underground fire, where there's a pile of rubble preventing heat from escaping, and the fire is continuing to generate heat. If heat continues to be supplied to the system faster than it can escape, the temperature will continue to rise. The rate of heat conduction through the rubble will also increase with temperature, so that at some point a dynamic equilibrium will be reached. The temperature at which this can occur depends on how well insulated the region around the fire is, and on how fast the fire is burning. Give me some numbers or a reference that indicates that this must be below 1000ºC, and you've got a point. At the moment, you haven't.

Dave
 
The Truth is that: HOT STEEL WILL CONTINUE TO UNDERGO EXOTHERMIC OXIDATION REACTIONS WHILE EXPOSED TO AIR, CAUSING IRON TO INCREASE ITS TEMPERATURE UNTIL IT MELTS, FORMING POOLS OF MOLTEN IRON.

pls? so when i get steel glowing red, and expose it to AIR, it will eract? or will it react when i add oxygen under pressure?
 
strange, FEMA didnt know the stuff claimed in linked articel .....
 
pls? so when i get steel glowing red, and expose it to AIR, it will eract? or will it react when i add oxygen under pressure?

Both, Steel reacts at room temperature with oxygen, this creates rust. Such a reaction is exothermic, that is it releases heat. The more concentrated the oxygen supply and the higher the temperature of the steel (and surface area of unoxidized material) the higher the reaction rate.

Typical fires with the same fuel load readily achieve 1100C+ temperatures which leads to 700C+ temperatures in unprotected steel. I made these graphs a while ago to illustrate this, the source for these is the Cardington Fire Tests. These were done by a NGO in the UK.

pro10624.png

pro11133.png

pro4483.png
 
Both, Steel reacts at room temperature with oxygen, this creates rust. Such a reaction is exothermic, that is it releases heat. The more concentrated the oxygen supply and the higher the temperature of the steel (and surface area of unoxidized material) the higher the reaction rate.

Typical fires with the same fuel load readily achieve 1100C+ temperatures which leads to 700C+ temperatures in unprotected steel. I made these graphs a while ago to illustrate this, the source for these is the Cardington Fire Tests. These were done by a NGO in the UK.

[qimg]http://xs124.xs.to/xs124/08092/pro10624.png[/qimg]
[qimg]http://xs124.xs.to/xs124/08092/pro11133.png[/qimg]
[qimg]http://xs124.xs.to/xs124/08092/pro4483.png[/qimg]

oc steel will react, thats true, but relatively slow, oxidation.
but we often make steel glowing red form it and let it cool down, sometimes we help cooling it, with water or oil to make it harder.
but also when we just let it cool down in a room full of air, it will cool down, it will not rise.

in the pile the steel was most prolly not exposed to air like in a room full of air.
it was covered with dust and other stuff, and the air had not so easy acces to the steel.
 
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you got a link to more details about that firetest?

found it sorry :)
 
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The effects of sulfur dioxide on iron has been known for hundreds of years. It's kind of why blacksmiths used high sulfur charcoal (wood fire oh no.........) to melt and form steel.

and what do you thnk is the source for the sulfur FEMA found in theys samples?
 
and also after stress relief annealing at 600°C i never saw oxidation.
i find that theory very strange and not convincing.
 
Arnold was always my favourite character on that show. :D


You might appreciate this story, then. My father's best friend, Rex, used to teach high school, and back in the 1980s, he was dating a woman from Canada. One day Rex brought her to school with him, and afterwards she commented, "I never believed that American schools were like they're shown on Welcome Back, Kotter, but I was wrong." :D
 
The situation you're supposed to be looking at is an underground fire, where there's a pile of rubble preventing heat from escaping, and the fire is continuing to generate heat.
You are asking for something that doesn't exist. There has never been a case where there were smoldering fires under the debris of a collapsed steel and concrete building.

If heat continues to be supplied to the system faster than it can escape, the temperature will continue to rise
until the temperature of the smoldering fire is reached.
The rate of heat conduction through the rubble will also increase with temperature,
until the temperature of the smoldering fire is reached.

so that at some point a dynamic equilibrium will be reached. The temperature at which this can occur depends on how well insulated the region around the fire is, and on how fast the fire is burning.
How fast and hot a fire can burn is determined by the air supply.
There was no air supply in the debris pile.
The concrete and everything else was pulverized and mixed together leaving few if any air pockets.
It is doubtful that there were any concentrations of combustible material.


Give me some numbers or a reference that indicates that this must be below 1000ºC, and you've got a point. At the moment, you haven't.

Dave
[FONT=&quot] NIST FAQ
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Normal building fires and hydrocarbon (e.g., jet fuel) fires generate temperatures up to about 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,000 degrees Fahrenheit). [/FONT][FONT=&quot]NIST reported maximum upper layer air temperatures of about 1,000 degrees Celsius (1,800 degrees Fahrenheit) in the WTC towers
[/FONT]
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm


NISTIR 7213 PG 41[43 on pg counter]
Temperatures in this simulated room fire were 700-800 °C.
When the window was opened, the temperature rose to 900-1,000 °C.
Thats a difference of 200 °C.
An oxygen starved fire would smolder at a lower temperature than the unventilated room.

The molten steel was burning the combustible material scattered throughout the debris, not the other way around.
 
The molten steel was burning the combustible material scattered throughout the debris, not the other way around.

Really?

The steel stayed molten all the way until DECEMBER?

But your theory fails on many levels.

Particularly the USGS surveys that show the fires MOVED around.in the rubble pile over time.
 
I scanned the atricel and read portions of that double talk.I didn't see any experiment that would explain how the temp reached 2,000 °F in the first place.
Where is the experiment and did it explain how the temp reached 2,000 °F?

Chris, in Canada woodstove chimneys must pass tests to 2100oF

Why would you think that is since wood does not burn close to that temp?
 
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