Will Obama's Association with Bill Ayers Scuttle his Candidacy?

[BPSCG]

You see how this works?

Uh, no, I don't. Unless you can show me where I said Obama was unpatriotic.

Well, not unless you can quote her out of context saying that she's "ashamed of America's history" and then spin it a little.

DA, I've noticed you have this clever little tactic of dismissing as "spin" any words that didn't come verbatim out of the candidates' mouths.

When someone says that this (2008) is the first time in her adult life that she's ever been proud of America, it's fair to conclude that up to now, she either a) has been ashamed of America, or, b) like some Elbonian peasant, has had no particular feelings of pride or shame about a country she does not identify with.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Uh, no, I don't. Unless you can show me where I said Obama was unpatriotic.

Wow, that one flew right over your head.

DA, I've noticed you have this clever little tactic of dismissing as "spin" any words that didn't come verbatim out of the candidates' mouths.

You call it a "clever little tactic", I call it honesty.

By all means quote what she actually said, but don't think that you can get away with the most malicious interpretation you can put on it.

C'mon, be realistic. She is proud that her country put a man on the moon.

When someone says that this (2008) is the first time in her adult life that she's ever been proud of America, it's fair to conclude that up to now, she either a) has been ashamed of America, or, b) like some Elbonian peasant, has had no particular feelings of pride or shame about a country she does not identify with.

You see, there you go again.

 

[BPSCG]

You call it a "clever little tactic", I call it honesty.

You can call a pig a peacock, but it's still a pig.

C'mon, be realistic. She is proud that her country put a man on the moon.

She has a funny way of showing it, wouldn't you say? She lives in a nation where "they" keep resetting the bar against black folks.

And you know who "they" are. Don't you?

Here in our nation's capital, which is largely black, there used to be a conspiracy theory known as "The Plan." It doesn't get much play now, since DC has had nothing but black mayors since getting home rule, and the last two, Anthony Williams and Adrian Fenty, have put the lie to the idea that DC is incapable of self-government, by returning competence to city hall after the catastrophic rule of Marion Barry.

Perhaps the most powerful symbol of the distance and fundamental lack of understanding between Washington's black and white residents is a concept called ''The Plan'' - the theory that white people systematically intend to reclaim the city they lost control of during the troubled 60's. As evidence, believers point to the continuing gentrification of formerly black neighborhoods, like Foggy Bottom and Capitol Hill. They point to real-estate developers, the predominantly white banking system and The Washington Post as The Plan's principal conduits. They point to David A. Clarke, chairman of the City Council of the District of Columbia, as foreshadowing one of The Plan's central tenets: a white mayor.

Although many people of all colors and economic levels dismiss the notion of The Plan as preposterous, it has become a point of reference for most blacks. When The Plan was mentioned to white people during a series of recent interviews, few knew what it meant; black people knew, and had an opinion.

''Whites are going to drive the housing prices up, make it difficult for blacks to get loans, and they are going to elect a white mayor,'' says Grier M. Greene, a 27-year-old native Washingtonian who works as an information analyst at The Greater Washington Research Center. ''Those are the basics of The Plan.''

As I said, you don't hear much about "The Plan" these days. But you do hear Michelle Obama speak darkly about how "they" keep changing the rules for blacks in the middle of the game.

She believes America is still racist, but she's proud of it.

 

[Pookster]

... When someone says that this (2008) is the first time in her adult life that she's ever been proud of America, it's fair to conclude that up to now, she either a) has been ashamed of America, or, b) like some Elbonian peasant, has had no particular feelings of pride or shame about a country she does not identify with.

It's fair to conclude possibly other things beyond even that. Maybe she's been too busy with in her adult life and hasn't noticed anything to make her stop and realize and reflect on her pride of America? I can't remember the last time I stopped and said anything such as: "Wow, I'm proud of America". Adult life can get kinda busy like that. But some events can cause it to happen. She seems to be referring to one with her quote. But to state any one thing applies to what she meant without any verification from her is, in essence, putting words in her mouth.

Maybe she should be asked what she actually meant? Wouldn't you want that same courtesy before someone starts saying what you meant? Just askin'

 

[Dr Adequate]

You can call a pig a peacock, but it's still a pig.

And that would be a snappy retort if I had ever called a pig a peacock. Your move.

She has a funny way of showing it, wouldn't you say? She lives in a nation where "they" keep resetting the bar against black folks.

And you know who "they" are. Don't you?

I'm assuming that she's talking about racists. Why do you ask?

Here in our nation's capital, which is largely black, there used to be a conspiracy theory known as "The Plan." It doesn't get much play now, since DC has had nothing but black mayors since getting home rule, and the last two, Anthony Williams and Adrian Fenty, have put the lie to the idea that DC is incapable of self-government, by returning competence to city hall after the catastrophic rule of Marion Barry.

As I said, you don't hear much about "The Plan" these days. But you do hear Michelle Obama speak darkly about how "they" keep changing the rules for blacks in the middle of the game.

So this stuff about "The Plan" has nothing to do with what Michelle Obama has ever said in any way?

She believes America is still racist ....

That is not how I should have put it. Is that how she put it?

 

[BPSCG]

And that would be a snappy retort if I had ever called a pig a peacock. Your move.

Look up the word "metaphor."

So this stuff about "The Plan" has nothing to do with what Michelle Obama has ever said in any way?

That is not how I should have put it. Is that how she put it?

Funny, Dems accuse Republicans all the time about using "code language" as part of their nefarious plot to keep blacks down. But you don't recognize when blacks try the same thing for their own purposes. "They keep resetting the bar..." It takes a heavy set of blinders to fail to see that that's code for, "Those racist Republicans are keeping you down."

Seems to me I recall posting something earlier about how you dismiss as "spin" any words that didn't come verbatim out of the candidates' mouths. Doing it again, I see.

I also begin to see why corplinx got tired of your antics.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Look up the word "metaphor."

Look up the phrase "extended metaphor".

Funny, Dems accuse Republicans all the time about using "code language" as part of their nefarious plot to keep blacks down. But you don't recognize when blacks try the same thing for their own purposes.

Well, if you consider me a "Dem", then show me where I accuse Republicans all the time of using code language.

After all, I do it "all the time", so it should be easy enough to catch me doing it once.

Otherwise, you seem to be accusing me of hypocrisy for not doing something in reality that I do in your imagination.

"They keep resetting the bar..." It takes a heavy set of blinders to fail to see that that's code for, "Those racist Republicans are keeping you down."

I have to wonder once again why the secret of the Sooper Sekrit Code that the Obamas speak in is known only to people who wouldn't have voted for Obama whatever he or his wife said or did. I can't read the Sooper Sekrit Obama Code, despite supporting him, so how come you got the Decoder Ring?

I'm jealous.

Seems to me I recall posting something earlier about how you dismiss as "spin" any words that didn't come verbatim out of the candidates' mouths. Doing it again, I see.

Not quite. I dismiss as spin any attempt to put into candidates' mouths anything that didn't actually come out of them.

I also begin to see why corplinx got tired of your antics.

Yes, indeed, the constant pwnage wore him down.

 

[chipmunk stew]

You can call a pig a peacock, but it's still a pig.

She has a funny way of showing it, wouldn't you say? She lives in a nation where "they" keep resetting the bar against black folks.

And you know who "they" are. Don't you?

Here in our nation's capital, which is largely black, there used to be a conspiracy theory known as "The Plan." It doesn't get much play now, since DC has had nothing but black mayors since getting home rule, and the last two, Anthony Williams and Adrian Fenty, have put the lie to the idea that DC is incapable of self-government, by returning competence to city hall after the catastrophic rule of Marion Barry.

As I said, you don't hear much about "The Plan" these days. But you do hear Michelle Obama speak darkly about how "they" keep changing the rules for blacks in the middle of the game.

She believes America is still racist, but she's proud of it.

She's been giving that speech on the stump for months. She's almost always talking to mostly whites. Nowhere in her speech does she talk about the bar moving for blacks. She mentions "regular folks" if I remember correctly.

It's a pretty standard populist pitch. Where do you get the racist innuendo from?

The same speech could be given by a white person, and race wouldn't even cross your mind.

I think this says more about you than it does about Michelle Obama.

edit: It says a lot about the National Review and Byron York, too, that the author sprinkled the piece with the congregation's exclamations, making fun of their participatory worship style.

 

[chipmunk stew]

Funny, Dems accuse Republicans all the time about using "code language" as part of their nefarious plot to keep blacks down.

Which Dems?

But you

I'm fairly certain Dr. Adequate is not a Dem.

don't recognize when blacks try the same thing

So you're saying that Republicans do use code language to keep blacks down...

for their own purposes. "They keep resetting the bar..." It takes a heavy set of blinders to fail to see that that's code for, "Those racist Republicans are keeping you down."

Michelle Obama's speech, as noted above, is her standard stump speech.
It's been delivered to white crowds in towns across the country.

By "they", she's referring to people who use their educated, moneyed advantages to ride the backs of "regular folks."

Seems to me I recall posting something earlier about how you dismiss as "spin" any words that didn't come verbatim out of the candidates' mouths. Doing it again, I see.

The part about her using code language meaning blacks vs. racist Republicans is spin.

I'm willing to entertain the possibility that you've spun yourself, though.

 

[BPSCG]

It says a lot about the National Review and Byron York, too, that the author sprinkled the piece with the congregation's exclamations, making fun of their participatory worship style.

Making fun of their participatory worship style? Or making it clear to the reader that this is a black audience she's talking to?

By "they", she's referring to people who use their educated, moneyed advantages to ride the backs of "regular folks."

I see what you're saying. She's not making an appeal to racial divisions.

She's making an appeal to class divisions.

The wife of the candidate who promises to bring us back together. Do you think he knows and approves of what she's saying?

This is politics as usual; the candidate stays loftily above the fray while sending out his surrogates to do the dirty work. Do you remember when Richard Nixon used Spiro Agnew in much the same way?

 

[corplinx]

I also begin to see why corplinx got tired of your antics.

It was cute having my own forum stalker who posted a template "ANOTHER FANTASY MADE UP ON THE SPOT< ARE YOU INSAEM?" message every time I posted.

 

[Pookster]

... I see what you're saying. She's not making an appeal to racial divisions.

She's making an appeal to class divisions.

The wife of the candidate who promises to bring us back together. Do you think he knows and approves of what she's saying?

This is politics as usual; the candidate stays loftily above the fray while sending out his surrogates to do the dirty work. Do you remember when Richard Nixon used Spiro Agnew in much the same way?

When you read her words, she is referring to McCain and the RNC. The article even says "They — she doesn’t mention anyone in particular but does refer to one “brand name politician” — are trying to win this election for themselves and thereby deny Obama the opportunity to move America to the mountaintop of hope". She then alludes to how the majority of people work hard to pay their bills, but the economy grows worse. "The bar" keeps getting re-set. She alludes to how precarious most people live their lives ... basically a hospital stay away from bankruptcy, etc.. They watch the cost of a college education rise (re-setting of a bar), while their incomes haven't kept pace over the past 8 years. Etc.

I guess you could also read an appeal to class divisions in her words, but it would just be showing a personal bias toward believing such a thing. The Republican and Democratic parties both cross practically all classes of people. I tend to see her appealing to anyone who is struggling or worse off in this economy ... based on the words she actually used and the context spoken within. That seems to cross a number of class (of all types) lines in these days as well, including most Republican voters. However, you first read it as an appeal to race. Now you read it as an appeal to class. I wonder what you will read it as next.

I believe her husband knows and approves of her message too. She seems to have a great understanding of how most in America (regardless of class or race) are struggling in this economy. She understands that it will be business as usual if McCain wins as well. It's a pretty good speech for her to make and mirrors Barack's typical speeches quite well.

 

[Brainster]

When you read her words, she is referring to McCain and the RNC. The article even says "They — she doesn’t mention anyone in particular but does refer to one “brand name politician” — are trying to win this election for themselves and thereby deny Obama the opportunity to move America to the mountaintop of hope".

Nope, she is referring to Hillary Clinton when she talks about the "brand name politician". As others have pointed out she's used this same stump speech for ages, and the Clintons have been the "they" all this time.

 

[T.A.M.]

So Brainster:

Do you think Obama is unpatriotic? Do you think he is secretly good friends with Ayers, but hiding it? Do you think his relationship with Ayers has effected, or will effect his judgement?

I am trying to figure out why you are hell bent on bad mouthing Obama, trying to make him look like the evil archdevil?

TAM

 

[Pookster]

Nope, she is referring to Hillary Clinton when she talks about the "brand name politician". As others have pointed out she's used this same stump speech for ages, and the Clintons have been the "they" all this time.

I stand corrected. Thanks.

So, she's actually pointing at a specific candidate's campaign and not even a Party. Given that, it seems to just be rhetoric to try to show substantial differences between Clinton and Obama, even though there is little difference in what either believes or proposes to do.

 

[BPSCG]

When you read her words, she is referring to McCain and the RNC. The article even says "They — she doesn’t mention anyone in particular but does refer to one “brand name politician” — are trying to win this election for themselves and thereby deny Obama the opportunity to move America to the mountaintop of hope".

Nope, she is referring to Hillary Clinton when she talks about the "brand name politician".

Well, there seems to be some division here as to who "they" are. I think the two of you need to hash this out.

Or maybe someone should ask Mrs. Obama who "they" are.

Whoever "they" are, this is clearly the politics of grievance, the politics of class warfare. The reason you are having trouble is because the amorphous they are keeping you down. They are getting rich by keeping you down.

There's another thread here asking if what Obama is preaching is some strange hermaphrodite animal called "Socialistic Reaganism" or somesuch. Ronald Reagan never preached that the poor are poor because some sinister "they" were keeping them poor.

And Ronald Reagan never described America as being "just downright mean" (and neither, I'll bet, did Nancy Reagan). Only someone who believes that America's rich and powerful got that way and stay that way by oppressing the poor and weak could say something like that.

 

[Pookster]

I think the two of you need to hash this out.

It's been hashed out. It's the Clintons.

Or maybe someone should ask Mrs. Obama who "they" are.

No need now. Good suggestion though!

Whoever "they" are, this is clearly the politics of grievance, the politics of class warfare. The reason you are having trouble is because the amorphous they are keeping you down. They are getting rich by keeping you down.

Well, "they" isn't amorphous anymore. It's Clinton. And although some would put Clinton in a class all by herself, I tend to just see her as a seasoned politician.

There's another thread here asking if what Obama is preaching is some strange hermaphrodite animal called "Socialistic Reaganism" or somesuch. Ronald Reagan never preached that the poor are poor because some sinister "they" were keeping them poor.

Yeah, but he has preached about how Clinton isn't good for America. It does help to know who "they" is, doesn't it?

 

[Brainster]

So Brainster:

Do you think Obama is unpatriotic?

Yes. Given that his wife is and his pastor is and that anti-American sentiment is pretty standard fare in Chicago liberal circles (according to Tsukasa), it appears to be a reasonable assumption.

Do you think he is secretly good friends with Ayers, but hiding it?

I don't know about "good friends". Their relationship is certainly closer than Obama has claimed. Ayers is not an "English professor" (given their work together on the Annenberg Challenge Obama knows he's an education professor) who just happens to live in his neighborhood.

Do you think his relationship with Ayers has effected, or will effect his judgement?

Affected? No. Reflected? Yes.

I am trying to figure out why you are hell bent on bad mouthing Obama, trying to make him look like the evil archdevil?

Archdevil? No. I was hoping that he would not get the nomination, that the Democrats would show some common sense for once. Ayers is a very evil person (and Dohrn, his wife, is even worse). It would be very difficult to come up with a pair that would bother me more. Charlie Manson and Susan Atkins, I guess. But that's about it.

 

[BPSCG]

It's been hashed out. It's the Clintons.

(...snip...)

Well, "they" isn't amorphous anymore. It's Clinton.

It's the Clintons? Really?

This from your earlier post:

She then alludes to how the majority of people work hard to pay their bills, but the economy grows worse. "The bar" keeps getting re-set. She alludes to how precarious most people live their lives ... basically a hospital stay away from bankruptcy, etc.. They watch the cost of a college education rise (re-setting of a bar), while their incomes haven't kept pace over the past 8 years. Etc.

All that is because of the Clintons?

She's blaming the last eight years on the Clintons?

I bet she isn't.

 

[Pookster]

It's the Clintons? Really?

This from your earlier post:
All that is because of the Clintons?

She's blaming the last eight years on the Clintons?

I bet she isn't.

Well, aren't you the observant one ...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3686630&postcount=115

I stand corrected. Thanks.

So, she's actually pointing at a specific candidate's campaign and not even a Party. Given that, it seems to just be rhetoric to try to show substantial differences between Clinton and Obama, even though there is little difference in what either believes or proposes to do.

It not only helps to know who "they" are; it helps to read all the posts too. I've made that mistake myself.