Offer to the Truth Movement: Let's Settle It

I have one simple question for you R. Mackey.

If WTC 7 was a natural collapse (gravity acting on debris and fire damage) vs. an artificially induced controlled demolition collapse, why did it maintain such a relatively level roofline?

I'll simplify the question by breaking it down further.

If failure was due to a critical column failure originating in a well off-center location, would not the logical expectation be for that initial failure, to at the very least, lead the collapse?

If you agree with that, would this portion of WTC 7, which is leading the collapse not pull the other intact side down with it---in a delayed, unbalanced manner?

Would that unbalanced failure not have produced a dramatically non-level roofline, as well as a probable topple with the likely possibility of leaving a portion of the intact structure still standing?

MM
 
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My spreadsheet is not from the SAP data. Only the core column steel mass is. The rest of the data is from NIST. I have provided possible explanations for the insignificant anomaly (from the SAP data) you have identified but you continue to hack on my work.

My apologies for saying the spreadsheet was from SAP2000. I misunderstood. But if your other data is from NIST and the SAP2000 data is from NIST then shouldn't the data that you did not extract from the SAP2000 files be pretty much the same anyway?

I am not sure what you mean by "hack" your work. I am assuming you are just accurately passing on data you got from the NIST. If there is anything wrong with it the fault is the NIST's. You admitted they did not even specify the number of each type of perimeter wall panels used. Considering how easy that should be I consider it significant though I do not regard it as your fault.

I am computing the weights of the basement core columns on the basis of data on Lon Waters' site that you pointed me to. Considering that the core columns had to support 50% of the weight I do not consider that insignificant. But computing the cross sectional area and tons per foot isn't what I regard as scholarship. it is lots of idiotic busy work which should not be necessary. This could have all been done within a few months of 9/11. It is like a 9/11 industry has been created.

psik
 
If WTC 7 was a natural collapse (gravity acting on debris and fire damage) vs. an artificially induced controlled demolition collapse, why did it maintain such a relatively level roofline?

I'll simplify the question by breaking it down further.

If failure was due to a critical column failure originating in a well off-center location, would not the logical expectation be for that initial failure, to at the very least, lead the collapse?

Apologies for jumping in here, but this seems to me to have a very straightforward explanation.

What was noticeable about the global WTC7 collapse, after the penthouse had already vanished, is that the roofline had a pronounced downwards kink in it. This suggests that the failure was due to a critical column failure, but that this failure was not well off-centre at all, rather in fact close to the centre of the building. As a result, this initial failure did indeed lead the collapse, but because it was close to the centre of the building it didn't result in a very great amount of tipping. It wasn't precisely in the centre; then again, the collapse wasn't precisely vertical, as we know.

That's the way I would interpret it, anyway.

Dave
 
What was noticeable about the global WTC7 collapse, after the penthouse had already vanished, is that the roofline had a pronounced downwards kink in it. This suggests that the failure was due to a critical column failure, but that this failure was not well off-centre at all, rather in fact close to the centre of the building. As a result, this initial failure did indeed lead the collapse, but because it was close to the centre of the building it didn't result in a very great amount of tipping. It wasn't precisely in the centre; then again, the collapse wasn't precisely vertical, as we know.

That's the way I would interpret it, anyway.

Dave



Sorry Dave I have to strongly disagree.

If you examine the NIST diagram that Danny Jowenko was shown;

Figure l-31 Plan View of Collapse Progression

nistl31tx4.png


You'll notice that NIST make reference to two kinks; the one first observed in the East Penthouse and a second one several seconds later in the North Facade.

BOTH of these kinks are clearly off center and significantly to the east. Certainly far enough from center that a balanced collapse would not be a logical expectation.

As a footnote, Danny Jowenko, an expert in controlled demolition, watched the WTC 7 collapse video several times, and examined the NIST diagram above, Figure L-31, and, without any doubt, stated it was a controlled demolition.

MM
 
Sorry Dave I have to strongly disagree.

If you examine the NIST diagram that Danny Jowenko was shown;

Figure l-31 Plan View of Collapse Progression

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/4017/nistl31tx4.png

You'll notice that NIST make reference to two kinks; the one first observed in the East Penthouse and a second one several seconds later in the North Facade.

BOTH of these kinks are clearly off center and significantly to the east. Certainly far enough from center that a balanced collapse would not be a logical expectation.

As a footnote, Danny Jowenko, an expert in controlled demolition, watched the WTC 7 collapse video several times, and examined the NIST diagram above, Figure L-31, and, without any doubt, stated it was a controlled demolition.

MM


Jowenko has no doubts that the Twin Towers collapsed from the impacts of the planes and the resultant fires. In this instance, all other demolition experts agree with him.

In his bizarre opinion that WTC 7 was a CD, no other demolition experts agree.

Isn't it funny that he only knows what he's talking about when he's right and the rest of the world is wrong? No, it isn't funny to you.
 
Jowenko has no doubts that the Twin Towers collapsed from the impacts of the planes and the resultant fires. In this instance, all other demolition experts agree with him.

In his bizarre opinion that WTC 7 was a CD, no other demolition experts agree.

Isn't it funny that he only knows what he's talking about when he's right and the rest of the world is wrong? No, it isn't funny to you.

What's funny, is that in your inability to address my major point about the absurdity of WTC 7 having a natural balanced collapse, you feel compelled to challenge my Danny Jowenko footnote.

Not only do you ignore the really interesting point I made, you apparently felt compelled to add more lies to your debunking arsenal by making the broad, unproven statements; "no other demolition experts agree" and "when he's right and the rest of the world is wrong".

What is it with people like yourself who join a debunking forum and when presented with a clear opportunity to debunk a specific point of argument, you shy away and present more of the same old feeble rhetoric?

Hopefully R. Mackey or Dave will bring something more thoughtful to the table.

MM
 
What's funny,

...a natural balanced collapse, ...

MM
When is the last time you had your vision checked?

When will you ever have some evidence to support your hearsay?

It looked off-balance to me, part falling before the exterior failed. The exterior was clearly not balanced. But then you are who? What is your expertise? Have you had your eyes calibrated?

All this from a video? Cool (and of course you have contacted the FBI and authorities that WTC7 was blown up by bad guys; or have you done anything but make up stuff? What did they say?)
 
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MM:
It would go a long way if you could explain what a "natural balanced collapse" is and how it pertains to buildings (or any man made structure).

That's strange.

Dave Rogers appeared to have no difficulty with the concept.

MM
 
That's strange.

Dave Rogers appeared to have no difficulty with the concept.

MM

Actually, you didn't use the phrase "natural balanced collapse" until after Dave Rogers replied. You previously used "natural collapse".

So, could you explain what a "natural balanced collapse" is and how it pertains to buildings (or any man made structure)?
 
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Actually, you didn't use the phrase "natural balanced collapse" until after Dave Rogers replied. You previously used "natural collapse".

So, could you explain what a "natural balanced collapse" is and how it pertains to buildings (or any man made structure)?
Thank you.
 
Actually, you didn't use the phrase "natural balanced collapse" until after Dave Rogers replied. You previously used "natural collapse".

So, could you explain what a "natural balanced collapse" is and how it pertains to buildings (or any man made structure)?

Take more time to read comprehensively and you'll see I did previously address this point about "balance" in my earlier response to R. Mackay.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3683445#post3683445

It seems to be a favorite tactic here to challenge points that have been already explained.

MM
 
The reason the exterior (face?) would lag behind is that it's an independent load bearing structure. The core failure dragged the exterior down with it.

Now MM: Explain how this would not happen in a "long span" structure.
 
BOTH of these kinks are clearly off center and significantly to the east. Certainly far enough from center that a balanced collapse would not be a logical expectation.

How far from centre? How much tilt would you expect to see? The collapse wasn't vertical or symmetrical, it tilted significantly to the south, although that's not evident from the specific video stills you posted; there are others. The figure shows a preponderance of damage to the south side of the building, and it fell that way. Where's the inconsistency?

As a footnote, Danny Jowenko, an expert in controlled demolition, watched the WTC 7 collapse video several times, and examined the NIST diagram above, Figure L-31, and, without any doubt, stated it was a controlled demolition.

Everything that can possibly said about Danny Jowenko by either side in this debate has been said many times. I really can't be bothered to read or say any of it yet another time.

Dave
 
Take more time to read comprehensively and you'll see I did previously address this point about "balance" in my earlier response to R. Mackay.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3683445#post3683445

It seems to be a favorite tactic here to challenge points that have been already explained.

MM

Oh, I read it. And saw where you talked about an "unbalanced failure". You came up with a new phrase though. It's always good to know if these phrases actually have a meaning in reality.
 
If WTC 7 was a natural collapse (gravity acting on debris and fire damage) vs. an artificially induced controlled demolition collapse, why did it maintain such a relatively level roofline?

Welcome back. This is actually an interesting question. You've received a couple of terse replies that I basically agree with, but I will elaborate. To those bickering in my thread, cut it out, guys. Thanks.

If failure was due to a critical column failure originating in a well off-center location, would not the logical expectation be for that initial failure, to at the very least, lead the collapse?

If you agree with that, would this portion of WTC 7, which is leading the collapse not pull the other intact side down with it---in a delayed, unbalanced manner?

Would that unbalanced failure not have produced a dramatically non-level roofline, as well as a probable topple with the likely possibility of leaving a portion of the intact structure still standing?

To answer this question, we need to make some assumptions about both the initiating failure event and the condition of the structure at that time. Both of these are going to be somewhat speculative. The NIST Report, which as you probably know is supposed to be out by the end of Summer, may provide a significantly different hypothesis.

We know a few things about the collapse. One is that the interior almost certainly failed first, and we know this because the collapse of roof structures preceded motion of the exterior wall. Another is that the collapse initiated low in the structure, which is why a large portion of the perimeter all moved downward as a unit, rather than the progressive mechanism seen in the Towers.

The core of WTC 7 was not entirely different from the Towers -- it was dominated by a small number of massive columns, with connections to the exterior wall spanning an unusually long distance. One of the problems with this design, as noted by Mr. Scheuerman whom I've discussed this with in some detail, is that the core is relatively susceptible to single-point failure. In normal operation, there is no reason why any column should fail, and this is why such a design is acceptable in ordinary practice. But should a column fail for whatever reason, the remainder of the core has very little ability to resist side loads. If the other columns cannot support the weight and the sudden eccentric load, the first column failure can literally pull the rest of the core sideways and then down along with it.

In the WTC Towers, one of our key pieces of evidence for the collapse mechanism is the inward buckling seen at various parts of the perimeter. This indicated severe eccentric loading appled to the perimeter by buckling floor trusses. WTC 7, as far as I know, did not demonstrate this behavior, but instead showed us something different -- a three-story "bulge" in the perimeter, reported by firefighters on the scene well before collapse. This "bulge" is indicative of a similar but slightly different mechanism. Instead of the floors drawing the perimeter inward, the building as a whole is sagging, with the "bulge" marking the shortened side of the structure. Rather than just pull in the perimeter at a point, what we have here is the core being pulled towards the perimeter, and where there is still some stretch opposite this pull a bulge appears.

So with the setup out of the way, let me answer your questions. At the moment stability is lost, the core buckles first -- a column gives way, and the neighboring columns cannot handle the sudden increase in their own load. This failure occurs well down in the structure, and momentum starts to accumulate.

This load next passes to the perimeter columns via whatever parts of the floor survive -- downward motion in the core above now acts in tension on the perimeter, in a fairly even manner. The floors are bent downward at their attachments. So now we have a race condition. Will the floors give way first, leaving a shell of perimeter columns while the core tumbles completely? Or will the floors remain attached, leaving the perimeter columns to fail at their weakest points?

The latter seems to be what happened. In addition to the roof giving way first, there were also "ripples" observed in the perimeter just before total collapse, indicating flexure in the structure. This might be due to "snapthrough" as the core load was suddenly relieved, but I think it is more likely due to an increase in load than a sudden decrease.

An increased load on the perimeter columns will cause them to buckle, and this will almost certainly happen at the same low level as the initial core failure. There are two reasons for this. First, the perimeter was already deflected here, as the bulge demonstrates. The "kink" low in the structure is the maximum stress point in the perimeter. Second, where the core fails is also where the floor support is weakest, so the perimeter is least braced in this location.

As a result, what we expect is an "upper block" of perhaps 30 stories or more, with the core leading the collapse, detached from the lower floors. Many of the perimeter column failures will be along the same line, low in the structure. Probably not all of them, but most, and the few that remain will still be bound to the other perimeter columns by spandrels. Thus, we do not expect the different perimeter walls to fall at different times, but instead the upper perimeter wall should fall more or less as a unit.

It is, however, still possible for the upper portion to tilt. And it did. But the situation is much different here than in, say, the WTC Towers. In that case, both upper blocks rotated by a noticeable amount as they started to fall. In the case of WTC 7, the structure also rotated, but not nearly as much in terms of angle.

This is explained through simple geometry. Both WTC Towers upper blocks were comparable in terms of width and height. In WTC 7, the upper block is considerably taller than it is wide, particularly along the short axis. A small angular rotation requires a proportionally much higher unbalanced force in the perimeter wall. This simply isn't expected. There is no expectation that one of the perimeter walls would survive, essentially supporting the entire upper mass of the structure, while the core and other three walls had failed. There is some, of course, and this is why the facade wound up laying on top of the debris pile, but we only expect a degree or two in this case rather than ~8 degrees, as in the Towers.

Now, as you remark, we do expect the off-center initial failure to lead the collapse, but only just. The collapse of the roof before the perimeter is evidence of the core failing first. The "kink" in the upper roofline is evidence of locally higher stresses at one point of the perimeter, and evidence of that stress being counteracted by spandrels and floor structures pulling down neighboring perimeter columns. The slight lean and rotation of the structure as it fell is evidence of an off-center collapse initiation, but the structure is simply too tall relative to its footprint to support a large amount of rotation -- the "hinge" will fail very quickly, before it can impart much angular momentum.

So the answers to your questions are "yes, but only slightly." None of these features is unexpected in an unassisted building collapse, due to its design. The above would not necessarily be true of a more conventional post-and-beam structure, a nested-tube design, or a masonry structure.

Regarding some remnant remaining, since the collapse initiation appeared to be low in the structure, any remnant would have to survive being hit by the falling mass of the structure. This would be sheer luck. Above the collapse initiation, neither the core nor the perimeter, nor any fraction thereof, would be likely to survive this kind of collapse. The two systems are braced by each other, and singly are simply not stable.

I apologize for the degree of speculation in this post. I look forward to the NIST Report in helping refine the possible space of explanations.
 
My apologies for saying the spreadsheet was from SAP2000. I misunderstood. But if your other data is from NIST and the SAP2000 data is from NIST then shouldn't the data that you did not extract from the SAP2000 files be pretty much the same anyway?

I am not sure what you mean by "hack" your work. I am assuming you are just accurately passing on data you got from the NIST. If there is anything wrong with it the fault is the NIST's. You admitted they did not even specify the number of each type of perimeter wall panels used. Considering how easy that should be I consider it significant though I do not regard it as your fault.

I am computing the weights of the basement core columns on the basis of data on Lon Waters' site that you pointed me to. Considering that the core columns had to support 50% of the weight I do not consider that insignificant. But computing the cross sectional area and tons per foot isn't what I regard as scholarship. it is lots of idiotic busy work which should not be necessary. This could have all been done within a few months of 9/11. It is like a 9/11 industry has been created.

psik

There is essentially no usable core column data in the NCSTAR reports but they do give some examples and an erroneous statement about the max plate thickness.

There are omissions and mistakes in the NCSTAR reports but the design and construction data generally makes sense. Though I am not a NIST appologist, they did do alot of good work. Considering their budget for the project, it's hard to imagine that they could have done more. I blame the politicians for the budget limitations. Nonetheless, NIST could have been more open with their data.

What I meant by "hacking on" is that it seems like you are calling my results into question over insignificant details. Consider that even if any individual floor or the total is off by 10% that the effect on collapse dynamics will be insignificant. Even 50% more weight makes only a small difference in the collapse times. I can post a collapse spreadsheet if you want to play with it.

Regarding the core colums, you might want to check the appendix in my paper. I've already done B6-B3 and 02-07.
 

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