Merged Fireballs and Backdraft in WTC1 Basement and Lobby

[thewholesoul]

are you smoking jet fuel?

Easy. It was already a fireball (No fuel smell), and the speed precluded early detection. Was it really too hard to figure that out by yourself?

what about the explosion supposedly caused by a fireball at b2-3 level? woudlnt that leave a trace of jet fuel?

this fireball had to pass over their elevator (car 50) perhaps they didnt smell it as you claim but they could have seen it, or felt a slight increase in heat. in a previous post #158 i include one testimony of someone inside an elevator when a fireball past it. go read that.

surely this fireball would have ignited once in contact with the sparks from the emergency brakes of car 50?

no, i must be crazy. your right, all the damage done in the basement from turning a machine shop and car park into rubble ( Pecoraro’s testimony),
causing elevators servicing the lowest floors to blow out (Walsh’s testimony), causing structural damage to the PATH Plaza, human damage etc was all caused by a fireball with no smell of jet fuel. yet jet fuel was smelled all over the building from much lesser events.

now what could cause a explosion with no jet fuel? i will let you dwell on that one amigo.

besides if your saying that an extremely powerful FAE from jet fuel came barrelling down the shaft of car 50, past car 50 undetected, then exploded leaving all that damage without leaving a trace or odor of jet fuel - then i want what your smoking!!!


oh one more thing - whats this speed precluded early detection lark? their was no detection early or late, pre or post explosion in the car 50 elevator shaft. THAT WAS MY POINT. THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE IF THE EXPLOSION WAS SUPPOSEDLY CAUSED BY A BUCKET LOAD OF JET FUEL - is that really too hard to figure out bubba??

 

[Vincent Vega]

To put the proverbial nail into the coffin of this discussion, please examine Page 5 in this document, or better yet, read the whole thing and then try to form a reasonable argument supporting the official theory.

If these calculations are accurate the paper the WTC towers were hit by 20 ton cans of fuel at 450 mph that then burst open and spread an ENTIRE floor's worth of area with 1/4 inch deep kerosene that then burst into flames...but caused insignificant damage. :

 

[Alferd_Packer]

Holy moly...
The towers had THREE zones. It is plausible on the third zone fuel managed to enter the severed shafts of local elevators on the third zone...but not on the first zone!!!!!!!!!!!!

So tell me where did these shaft explosions occur? On what floor?

Why was the jet fuel not consummed in that area by the explosion?

How could descending jet fuel pass horizontally into another shaft?

Have you ever seen the inside of an elevator shaft?

Have you ever seen the inside of the elevator shafts of the WTC towers?

Do you have proof that they were not interconnected?

 

[cloudshipsrule]

so what your basically saying is - i dont know the answer!

you dont need a HVAC blueprint either.

we know elevator shafts other than 6, 7 and 50 were affected.

what i wish to discuss is the “mechanism” by which this jet fuel could pass from one closed elevator shaft into another.

I believe the 'forrest from the trees' analogy applies here. If you don't know how the shafts were interconnected via HVAC ductwork, you don't know jack. Hence, without HVAC plans you don't know, and neither does anyone else without those plans. I take it you've never worked around or on HVAC equipment.

 

[DGM]

I believe the 'forrest from the trees' analogy applies here. If you don't know how the shafts were interconnected via HVAC ductwork, you don't know jack. Hence, without HVAC plans you don't know, and neither does anyone else without those plans. I take it you've never worked around or on HVAC equipment.

I don't think he knows what the inside of a elevator shaft looks like. I think he's picturing a closed tube of some sort when in reality its more like an open section in the core of the building. Two or more shafts may occupy the same area with nothing but space between them.

I got the chance a while back to ride the top of a car at the Hancock building in Boston. It was more than a little scary with nothing around you and a long way down.

 

[thewholesoul]

local shafts were divided

I believe the 'forrest from the trees' analogy applies here. If you don't know how the shafts were interconnected via HVAC ductwork, you don't know jack. Hence, without HVAC plans you don't know, and neither does anyone else without those plans. I take it you've never worked around or on HVAC equipment.

i dont have the HVAC plans. what i do have is the "schematic section of the shuttle and freight elevators" at gravy's paper:
http://911stories.googlepages.com/wtcelevatorshafts

now, what you will see in this floor section is that each tower was divided into three sections by skylobbies. that means that even if the shafts were interconnected the local shafts in the lobby and section one did not vertically go all the way to the top of the building!!! if that were the case then all the local shafts would have plumetted to the lobby piled on top of one another. they didnt because the local shafts were divided horizontally.

so use a little common sense.

 

[thewholesoul]

i will post this again because NOBODY CAN ANSWER IT.

damage to the basement level was caused by a fireball descending the freight car 50 elevator shaft.

"The doors were blown off by the fireball that came down the elevator shaft (Basement level of WTC 1)." (NIST NCSTAR 1-8, p.43)

“A jet fuel fireball erupted upon impact and shot down at least one bank of elevators.The fireball exploded onto numerous lower floors, including the 77th and 22nd; the West Street lobby level; and the B4 level, four stories below ground.”– 9/11 Commission Report, P. 285

so the magic fireball is supposed to have past the freight car 50 and then burst down the shaft door at b2-3.

read the following statement by Harry Waizer. this is what one expects to hear when a fireball passes over your elevator car!!

Waizer, to the 9/11 Commission: "The elevator was ascending when, suddenly, I felt it rocked by an explosion, and then felt it plummeting. Orange, streaming sparks were apparent through the gaps in the doors at the sides of the elevator as the elevator scraped the walls of the shaft. The elevator burst into flame. I began to beat at the flames, burning my hands, arms and legs in the process. The flames went out, but I was hit in the face and neck by a separate fireball that came through the gap in the side of the elevator doors. The elevator came to a stop on the 78th floor, the doors opened, and I jumped out"

arturo griffith or marlene cruz report no sparks, no heat, no flames, in fact there is no mention or even the slighest allusion that a fireball had past their car. kinda strange dont you think? and lets not forget, this fireball had the strength to blown down the shaft door at b2-3, the PATH, turn carparks into rubble etc yet it magically did no harm to car 50, the shaft, or its occupants. there wasnt even a smell of jet fuel detected by griffith or cruz either!!!

so debunkers - explain to me how this is POSSIBLE. how could an FAE pass the elevator car 50 cause emense damage to basement levels yet it past undetected by the car 50 occupants????

can anyone debunk this??

i dont think so.

and because nobody can that means that the official story has been DEBUNKED and secondary devices must be considered.

and please if you do respond stay on point by addressing the question that i have just stated.

 

[DGM]

>Snipped for space <

can anyone debunk this??

i dont think so.

and because nobody can that means that the official story has been DEBUNKED and secondary devices must be considered.

and please if you do respond stay on point by addressing the question that i have just stated.

What did said "devices" do a hour before the collapse? The buildings collapsed from the top, People survived in the core area, your bunk is debunked.

 

[DGM]

Also Soul:
http://911stories.googlepages.com/wtcelevatorshafts

These diagrams show how it could happen if you only knew how to read them.

 

[R.Mackey]

We've answered this over and over again, despite your claim that "no one can answer this."

There is no requirement for a fireball to pass the elevator. All that is required is for fuel to pass the elevator. Vapor, liquid streams, droplets, whatever. The amount of fuel that has to pass, as I demonstrated rigorously, is quite reasonable.

The fuel almost certainly ignited at several different places. Not just one big 80-story high fireball. Lots of fireballs.

Very, very simple.

 

[johnny karate]

so the magic fireball is supposed to have past the freight car 50 and then burst down the shaft door at b2-3.

It's "passed". The word you're looking for is "passed".

I don't mean to be overly pedantic, but in a smug and self-congratulatory post, it kind of undercuts the desired effect if you can't manage to correctly spell the one word you bolded for emphasis.

 

[johnny karate]

arturo griffith or marlene cruz report no sparks, no heat, no flames, in fact there is no mention or even the slighest allusion that a fireball had past their car. kinda strange dont you think? and lets not forget, this fireball had the strength to blown down the shaft door at b2-3, the PATH, turn carparks into rubble etc yet it magically did no harm to car 50, the shaft, or its occupants. there wasnt even a smell of jet fuel detected by griffith or cruz either!!!

Also, it should be noted that this narrative is not entirely factual. Griffith and Cruz certainly did experience the indications of a fireball's presence, and were fortunately pulled from freight car 50A just before it came down the shaft.

From Gravy's paper William Rodriguez, Escape Artist:

Elevator operator Arturo Grffith was in freight car 50A with carpenter Marlene Cruz: "The whole car shook and juddered as he heard an ominous noise from above." Source

"'I felt the explosion and the elevator dropped,' Arturo said at St. Vincents Hospital in Manhattan, where he's being treated for a broken leg." Source

"Arturo Griffith was in a freight elevator when the building was attacked. The elevator dropped to B1 (the basement level), fell below the landing. He was trapped in the elevator beneath debris and unconscious. He remembers seeing a beam of light. He called out. The smoke was so thick; Arturo could not see his own hand. So his rescuers had to follow his voice to find him. 'I don't know who saved me. It was so black and smoky. I couldn't see nothin',' Arturo said. 'When they got me out, I told them there was someone else down there, a woman. They went back to get her. Seconds after they pulled her out, a ball of fire came down the shaft. They almost got killed.' " Source

 

[LashL]

I don't think he knows what the inside of a elevator shaft looks like. I think he's picturing a closed tube of some sort when in reality its more like an open section in the core of the building. Two or more shafts may occupy the same area with nothing but space between them.

I got the chance a while back to ride the top of a car at the Hancock building in Boston. It was more than a little scary with nothing around you and a long way down.

Exactly. It seems to be a fairly common misconception, though. I think that some people erroneously think that the hoistways in large skyscrapers are the same as the elevator "shafts" they may have seen in a movie rendition or those they may be familiar with in their own experience in low rise buildings. They are not.

In modern skyscrapers, it is common for multiple elevator cars in multiple hoistways to share common, unseparated space within the interior (core) space that they occupy. Some people have a completely inaccurate impression and belief that every elevator they occupy is in its own dedicated space, cordoned off from all other hoistways and elevator cars, but that isn't so. They erroneously assume that all elevator cars are enclosed in - as you said - "tubes" separated from all of the other elevator cars and adjacent hoistways, but that is simply not accurate.

In large modern skyscrapers (such as the 57 storey one that I worked in for several years in downtown Toronto and several others that my beau continues to serve as a fire captain whose squad does elevator rescues in such skyscrapers), I know for a fact that there are multiple elevator cars that share hoistway space and are not individually enclosed. This common element, in fact, helps in high rise elevator rescues as the firefighters are able to get on top of an elevator car in a hoistway adjacent to the one in which people are trapped, position it so that they can then walk over to the top of the elevator car in which the people are trapped, and enter that elevator car to facilitate the rescue of those trapped.

(A similar rescue was made in one of the WTC towers in, I believe, 2000)

Also, many modern highrise buildings now have dedicated "firefighter elevators" which have - among other things - robust fire protection between the hoistway of the FF elevator car and the other hoistways, separate "shafts" if you will, but the WTC towers (and most other skyscrapers) did not have those at the time. It was not required by any of the codes during the time that the WTC towers existed but one of the recommendations that came out of the NIST report was that building codes ought to require these for buildings over a certain height, and that recommendation has since been endorsed by the IBC.

 

[jhunter1163]

If there were explosives in the basement, why did the Towers collapse from the impact zones?

 

[thewholesoul]

your inability to debunk is not debunking

that did said "devices" do a hour before the collapse?

you no make but how much sense!

The buildings collapsed from the top, People survived in the core area, your bunk is debunked.

1. my bunk is not debunked because you COMPLTELY AVOIDED my question. perhaps you lack the intellegence to answer it i suppose.

2. secondary devices in the basement played several functions.
- weakened the core structure
- all the engineering rooms were destroyed. they were responsible for the water pumps which if functioning properly pump the water upwards through the building in the event of a fire! if you wanted the fire to continue then destroying the pump system would be imperative

3. the elevators were blown out. if you wanted to prevent firefighters from reaching the fire then disabling the elevator system would be imperative.

4. controlled demolition can be from the top down!!!!!!!!

5. people survived in the core because they were lucky and not located within the core but in offices alongside.

so answer my simple question. i answered yours!

peace

 

[DGM]

Your question was answered by the diagrams that you posted. The fact you do understand them is not our problem.

 

[beachnut]

you no make but how much sense!

1. my bunk is not debunked because you COMPLTELY AVOIDED my question. perhaps you lack the intellegence to answer it i suppose.

2. secondary devices in the basement played several functions.
- weakened the core structure
- all the engineering rooms were destroyed. they were responsible for the water pumps which if functioning properly pump the water upwards through the building in the event of a fire! if you wanted the fire to continue then destroying the pump system would be imperative

3. the elevators were blown out. if you wanted to prevent firefighters from reaching the fire then disabling the elevator system would be imperative.

4. controlled demolition can be from the top down!!!!!!!!

5. people survived in the core because they were lucky and not located within the core but in offices alongside.

so answer my simple question. i answered yours!

peace

You are totally devoid of evidence. Do you make this up all by yourself?
1, you have been debunked for 6 years.
2. There were no secondary devices anywhere in the WTC. Failure to provide evidence
3. lol, a paranoid fantasy idea, without merit.
4. There was no CD, you have failed to provide evidence.
5. What? That does not make sense. Take a break and get clean.

Please give the full story? You left out the facts and evidence to support your ideas which must be dismissed as fantasy.

 

[A W Smith]

you no make but how much sense!



1. my bunk is not debunked because you COMPLTELY AVOIDED my question. perhaps you lack the intellegence to answer it i suppose.

2. secondary devices in the basement played several functions.
- weakened the core structure
- all the engineering rooms were destroyed. they were responsible for the water pumps which if functioning properly pump the water upwards through the building in the event of a fire! if you wanted the fire to continue then destroying the pump system would be imperative

3. the elevators were blown out. if you wanted to prevent firefighters from reaching the fire then disabling the elevator system would be imperative.

4. controlled demolition can be from the top down!!!!!!!!

5. people survived in the core because they were lucky and not located within the core but in offices alongside.

so answer my simple question. i answered yours!

peace

why do you lie and ignore the FACT that the column shapes at the basement level were built up from steel plate 3 inches thick? any device strong enough to "weaken" a column made up of 3 inch plate would have killed everyone in all the basement levels. The planes compromised the sprinkler system by cutting off the pipes at the impact level. Pumps had nothing to do with it.

Debunked. You are nothing more than a fantasist and terrorist apologist.

 

[thewholesoul]

We've answered this over and over again, despite your claim that "no one can answer this."

There is no requirement for a fireball to pass the elevator. All that is required is for fuel to pass the elevator. Vapor, liquid streams, droplets, whatever. The amount of fuel that has to pass, as I demonstrated rigorously, is quite reasonable.

The fuel almost certainly ignited at several different places. Not just one big 80-story high fireball. Lots of fireballs.

Very, very simple.

I will make this very simple for you – “mackey’s fuel-pool theory” was not the theory that my post #187 debunks. My post debunks the position of norseman, NIST, and the 911 commission who all clearly state that a fireball, not jet fuel, descended the elevator shaft 50 causing the subsequent damage in multiple basement levels.

Norseman states:

The burning jet fuel cascading/raining down the elevator shafts of car number 6,7 and 50 would consume all available oxygen in the shaft on its way down. Behind the burning front of the fireball, in the shafts, there would follow a cloud of expanding hot gasses including evaporated jet fuel

NIST states:
"The doors were blown off by the fireball that came down the elevator shaft (Basement level of WTC 1)." (NIST NCSTAR 1-8, p.43)

911 commission states:
“A jet fuel fireball erupted upon impact and shot down at least one bank of elevators.The fireball exploded onto numerous lower floors, including the 77th and 22nd; the West Street lobby level; and the B4 level, four stories below ground.”– 9/11 Commission Report, P. 285

As can be clearly seen, all of the above advocate the fireball theory and not the “mackey fuel-pool theory” so it would be perfectly legitimate if i simply ignored your comments because you are not, strictly speaking, defending the official theory that my post intended to debunk. You do recognise this fact?

As for my post #187 being “answered over and over again”...i havent heard one half way convincing answer from advocates of the official magic fireball theory and i seriously doubt that i will. In the context of the official explanation the problems posed in post #187 remain unanswered and like i said will remain so.

However what some like yourself attempt to do is basically avoid defending the impossible (official fireball theory) and give a more nuianced explanation that claims jet fuel in liquid, vapour and/or gas form descended the elevator shaft passed elevator car 50 creating the damage to multiple basement floors. So lets look at that:

1: elevator cars are not airtight that means that if liquid, vapour or gas were hurdling down the shaft they must have entered the elevator car given the over pressure. The occupants within the elevator did not report seeing or smelling jet fuel vapour or gas entering the car. This is not possible because humans can smell jet fuel as low as 1 part per million so how on earth did the jet fuel whether liquid vapour or gas pass the elevators without entering the elevator car? For a fuel/air mixture to ignite a range between 7000ppm to 50000ppm needs to established. So because the elevator shaft 50 was the ONLY shaft with access to the basement levels we are expected to believe that 7000ppm – 50000ppm of jet fuel passed the elevator car without even 1ppm being detected. moreover when the occupants arrived at b2-3 level they did not report smelling any jet fuel eventhough the supposedly jet fuel explosion had occured moments earlier.

2: elevator car 50 apllied its emergency breaks producing sparks, yet these sparks were unable to ignite the descending jet fuel in liquid, vapour and/or gas form? Eventhough though in post #187 Henry Waisers testimony clearly mentions how the sparks caused presumably descending jet fuel to burst into flames.

3: according to mackey’s personal theory, jet fuel descended the freight elevator shaft and pooled in the shaft pit. Yet the explosion occurs above the shaft pit at floor b2-3.

4: you say “The fuel almost certainly ignited at several different places” which sounds very random yet these spontaneous ignitions managed to destroy the mechanical rooms in both towers disabling the water pumping system. doesnt sound very random to me.

peace

 

[LashL]

you no make but how much sense!

I have no idea what that combination of words is supposed to mean.

1. my bunk is not debunked because you COMPLTELY AVOIDED my question. perhaps you lack the intellegence to answer it i suppose.

You got the first two words right. The rest, not so much. (And if you're going to attempt to denigrate DGM's - or anyone else's - intelligence, that would be a particularly good time to spell "intelligence" correctly and a particularly good time to demonstrate your own intelligence by utilizing correct grammar, punctuation, spelling, and capitalization.)

2. secondary devices in the basement played several functions.

There is no evidence of secondary devices in the basement.

- weakened the core structure

There is no evidence of the core structure being weakened at basement levels, and the collapse of the towers is not consistent with your assertion (in fact, the core of each tower stood for several seconds after the rest of the building collapsed).

- all the engineering rooms were destroyed. they were responsible for the water pumps which if functioning properly pump the water upwards through the building in the event of a fire! if you wanted the fire to continue then destroying the pump system would be imperative

There is no evidence that "all the engineering rooms were destroyed" by "secondary devices".

There were water supply systems throughout the towers - not just in the basements - including storage tanks on the 110th floors and supply piping from those throughout the towers.

However, with standpipes damaged by aircraft impact, structural damage and resulting fires, it is true that the firefighting capacity was horribly compromised - but not by bombs in the basement.

By the way, if, as you posit, there were bombs in the basement to weaken the core in order to facilitate collapse of the towers, what would be the purpose of destroying the basement water pumping operations to stymie firefighting efforts with respect to fires 80 and 90 floors above? Or are you suggesting that the terrorists who hijacked and deliberately flew the planes into the towers also expected that doing so would result in numerous huge fires over multiple floors, (at the impact floors and other floors to which jet fuel would naturally flow and to which fires would naturally ignite and spread) and that the terrorists knew or planned that these large fires, concomitant structural damage at the impact floors, and these purported "basement bombs" would operate in conjunction with one another to bring down the buildings?

I'm just not sure what it is that you are trying to present here as your theory, and I would appreciate it if you could flesh that out a bit.

3. the elevators were blown out. if you wanted to prevent firefighters from reaching the fire then disabling the elevator system would be imperative.

Some elevators were blown out - certainly not all of them. There were hundreds of people trapped in numerous elevators, after all, and many of them did, sadly, end up dying in them. However, in some instances, firefighters used elevators to get up higher than others had been able to reach; in some instances, firefighters used elevators to evacuate people; and in some instances, trapped occupants managed to free themselves. (See, for instance, 102 Minutes by Dwyer and Flynn for details).

In any event, the elevators were not disabled by basement bombs, but by the airplane impacts.

4. controlled demolition can be from the top down!!!!!!!!

If you use enough exclamation points, you just might convince readers that your unsupported assertion is true, even if your assertion has no rational connection to the collapse of the Twin Towers and the events of 9/11.

There is nothing about the collapses of the twin towers that would lead any rational person - possessed of all of the available facts and evidence - to say that they were "controlled demolitions".

5. people survived in the core because they were lucky and not located within the core but in offices alongside.

As far as I know, those who survived the collapses (as opposed to those who got out before the collapses were complete), were all in stairwells, which were within the core. I am not aware of anyone being rescued post-collapse from areas outside the core, but please correct me if I am wrong on this.