Offer to the Truth Movement: Let's Settle It

Well the CIA was good at overthrowing a legitimate Iranian government and putting the Shah in power.

http://www.angelfire.com/home/iran/1953coup.html

But that's OK. The Good Guys can do whatever they want.

Of course that doesn't settle the TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE question.

psik
The fact that you don't understand the data does not give you the right to derail this informative thread. You have been reported as of topic. Start a new thread with your BS.
 
I definitely agree with the official account on the events that transpired on that fateful day in 2001. Something that I notice keeps coming up is the issue about what one "eyewitness" claims she saw at Shankseville.

The eyewitness in question is none other than Susan Mcelwain

She claims she saw a UAV type aircraft performing some incredible acrobatic feats. The technology described appears to be far superior to that of a Predator or Global Hawk. Some people have backed up her claims with evidence of some new police and military UAV's that share features and are able to match the performance of the craft she saw that day.

What are the views on her testimony? What about the countless video interviews of her accounts of that day?
 
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I definitely agree with the official account on the events that transpired on that fateful day in 2001. Something that I notice keeps coming up is the issue about what one "eyewitness" claims she saw at Shankseville.

The eyewitness in question is none other than Susan Mcelwain

She claims she saw a UAV type aircraft performing some incredible acrobatic feats. The technology described appears to be far superior to that of a Predator or Global Hawk. Some people have backed up her claims with evidence of some new police and military UAV's that share features and are able to match the performance of the craft she saw that day.

What are the views on her testimony? What about the countless video interviews of her accounts of that day?


There appears to be a missing negative in your first sentence.
 
The eyewitness in question is none other than Susan Mcelwain

She claims she saw a UAV type aircraft performing some incredible acrobatic feats. The technology described appears to be far superior to that of a Predator or Global Hawk. Some people have backed up her claims with evidence of some new police and military UAV's that share features and are able to match the performance of the craft she saw that day.

What are the views on her testimony? What about the countless video interviews of her accounts of that day?

There's not much to tell. Ms. McElwaine has extremely little knowledge of aircraft, as evinced by her use of nonstandard terminology, such as "spoilers" and "fins." She also describes what is nearly impossible, i.e. a jet aircraft passing within 100 feet of the ground, yet being almost silent. Her value as a witness is quite limited. (ETA: "Spoilers" are present on modern aircraft, but they aren't what she thinks they are. They are control surfaces on the upper wing that "spoil" aircraft lift, allowing descent without a great increase in speed.)

The most plausible explanation, from my perspective, is that the aircraft she described was the well-known white Falcon 20 business jet that was in the area, and was asked by Air Traffic Control to survey the area looking for the crash site. I believe they were flying at an altitude of only a few thousand feet, which would plausibly match the apparent size and speed of the object Ms. McElwaine described.

If the aircraft was not the Falcon 20, whatever it was went unnoticed by them and by Air Traffic Control. A stealth aircraft? Or flying at extremely low altitude? Ms. McElwaine seems to imply the latter.

However, this is not possible. If the aircraft was truly as low as she says, then it had to be very small as well, so small that it cannot have carried a pilot. Regarding UAVs, there are no UAVs that can operate so close to the ground. I've commented before on why UAV technology is inadequate to create "drone planes" that hit the World Trade Center, and the mission called for in this case -- flying nap-of-the-earth in rural Pennsylvania -- would be far more challenging.

The reason why this can't be done remotely is quite simple. At an altitude of, say, 100 feet, and speed of 250 knots, the time required to close the control loop without hitting ground obstacles is on the order of 200 milliseconds to execute the full cycle. This is at about the limit of human performance. If you add radio control and comm latency, this is totally impossible.

Similarly, there are no on-board autonomy systems with that level of performance. All current UAVs that are not remotely piloted will not let you fly that low. Global Hawk, for instance, only passes through those altitudes during takeoff and landing, and only after it has taken a radar image of the ground so that it knows there are no obstacles along its intended flightpath. Otherwise, it would not even sense the obstacles.

The only UAVs that can possibly operate at such low altitude are those which are both small and slow. There are some autonomous helicopter efforts at NASA Ames, for instance, but they are far from mature, and Ms. McElwaine wasn't describing a whirlybird. There are also several lightweight, hand-thrown and similar surveillance platforms, but these rarely exceed 100 knots, and many are slower still. I fail to see what possible threat such a small and impotent UAV could have presented to a jetliner. Such a UAV would not have a hope of intercepting or even tracking a 500+ knot capable large transport. It couldn't even get out of the way.

The fantasy UAV story strikes me as yet another unfounded UFO story, and nothing more.
 
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Well, R., i really don't see any "offer" here. To settle it doesn't mean that one side is 100% correct. 9/11 isn't 100% about rocket science. You are not able to answer all our questions. You are able to answer some of them and you are doing a great job but your dismissive answer to the possible existance of a list of potential whistleblowers is typical of the "debunkers" side of argument.

You are hiding behind the Joneses and other "popular figures" because you aren't able to "settle it" in a fair compromise, in a free exchange of ideas. You can't concede ONE SINGLE POINT, because if you would you would have to join us in demanding a new investigation of an unsolved crime.

The people who are presenting us the "official story" are proven war criminals and mass murderers. There is no reason to give them any benefit of the doubt, whatsoever. You closing your mind to the very real suspicions about 9/11 borders on treason, i'm sorry to say that.

edit: and as i've said before, there is no possible question thats answer could cure me from demanding a new investigation into 9/11 - in May 2008.
 
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edit: and as i've said before, there is no possible question thats answer could cure me from demanding a new investigation into 9/11 - in May 2008.


Err... that's quite a paradox. Presumably, you demand a new investigation to answer your questions about 9/11, but... if no answers to the questions you have could stop you from demanding a new investigation, then why would the potential answers given by said new investigation stop you from demanding yet another investigation?
 
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{snip-drivel}


The people who are presenting us the "official story" are proven war criminals and mass murderers. There is no reason to give them any benefit of the doubt, whatsoever. You closing your mind to the very real suspicions about 9/11 borders on treason, i'm sorry to say that.



Ah, but the problem is that there is no "official" story, the people you are slandering are neither war criminals nor mass murderers, and your mindless, evil movement never proves anything. Apart from that, you make an excellent point.


edit: and as i've said before, there is no possible question thats answer could cure me from demanding a new investigation into 9/11 - in May 2008.


And as all of us rationalists have said, there is no possible investigation that includes serious researchers that would produce the mad, agenda-driven answers you desire so desperately.

Have you ever considered changing your handle to "Lola," you know, like the old Kinks' song?
 
edit: and as i've said before, there is no possible question thats answer could cure me from demanding a new investigation into 9/11 - in May 2008.

In other words, you have no such question as I asked for in my OP. It leaves me to wonder precisely what you hope the investigation to accomplish...
 
Perhaps it wouldn't accomplish anything. I'm realistic about that (and frankly i'm sick of the topic). But perhaps it will, i simply cannot understand why anybody could oppose a new investigation, given the flaws of the Kean/Hamilton-Commission as it was. 9/11 is the root cause of the willingness of the average american to participate in imperialistic wars. Do you disagree with the last sentence?

edit: and it would be nice if you could answer my remarks on the nature of this thread.
 
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Perhaps it wouldn't accomplish anything. I'm realistic about that (and frankly i'm sick of the topic). But perhaps it will, i simply cannot understand why anybody could oppose a new investigation, given the flaws of the Kean/Hamilton-Commission as it was.

I can't speak for others, but if you want me to support your investigation, I want to first know what it is about. In other words, what question is it designed to answer?

9/11 is the root cause of the willingness of the average american to participate in imperialistic wars. Do you disagree with the last sentence?

The United States has been involved in "imperialistic wars" almost since its founding, so no, I don't agree with that last sentence. September 11th has been used as a motivator in political rhetoric, but had it not happened, we'd use something else. It's part of history, and that's all. To pretend otherwise is a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy.
 
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You can't concede ONE SINGLE POINT, because if you would you would have to join us in demanding a new investigation of an unsolved crime.


So if one tiny aspect of a crime is unknown that means the crime remains unsolved? What sort of nonsense logic is that?
 
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... edit: and as i've said before, there is no possible question thats answer could cure me from demanding a new investigation into 9/11 - in May 2008.
You just said you don't need a new investigation, nothing can answer your questions, you can't formulate in the first place! Oxymoronic-irony, 9/11 truth style.

You posted a subtle stundie. We are also off topic~! You can make the same point by not POSTING! Sorry…
 
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I definitely agree with the official account on the events that transpired on that fateful day in 2001. Something that I notice keeps coming up is the issue about what one "eyewitness" claims she saw at Shankseville.

The eyewitness in question is none other than Susan Mcelwain

She claims she saw a UAV type aircraft performing some incredible acrobatic feats. The technology described appears to be far superior to that of a Predator or Global Hawk. Some people have backed up her claims with evidence of some new police and military UAV's that share features and are able to match the performance of the craft she saw that day.

What are the views on her testimony? What about the countless video interviews of her accounts of that day?


She saw an executive jet that was asked to fly past the crash site, that is all.
 
You just said you don't need a new investigation, nothing can answer your questions, you can't formulate in the first place! Oxymoronic-irony, 9/11 truth style.


No, i didn't. I said that nothing short of a new investigation can cure me from my curiosity about what really happened on 9/11. After all i've seen from 2001-2008.

[beachnut mode]
How can anybody be so wrong?
[/beachnut mode]
 
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I can't speak for others, but if you want me to support your investigation, I want to first know what it is about. In other words, what question is it designed to answer?


Who did it.

The United States has been involved in "imperialistic wars" almost since its founding, so no, I don't agree with that last sentence. September 11th has been used as a motivator in political rhetoric, but had it not happened, we'd use something else. It's part of history, and that's all. To pretend otherwise is a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy.


This is a very cynical answer. Of course i'm speaking about the post cold war mindset of the average american. And i'm speaking about the actions taken by the US "empire" after 9/11.
 
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I said that nothing short of a new investigation can cure me from my curiosity about what really happened on 9/11.


What questions do you have that you feel can't be answered by anything short of a new investigation?

I think that may be part of what Mr. Mackey is trying to accomplish here. Do those questions really need a new investigation, or is that demand just overkill for the sake of attention?
 
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Who did it.

That's not good enough. There have already been investigations into this question, the question has been answered quite definitely, and those so accused (or at least, the subset that remains alive) continue to reiterate their responsibility and even pride in the event.

What I'm trying to say is that, if you can't formulate a specific set of tasks, you cannot conduct or even design an investigation. Either you are unaware of the previous answers, or you have some specific problem with them. So, what is it?

This is the reasoning behind this thread. I'm not a full investigation by any means, but I will give the best answer I can. So, once again, what is your question?

This is a very cynical answer. Of course i'm speaking about the post cold war mindset of the average american. And i'm speaking about the actions taken by the US "empire" after 9/11.

It's not cynical at all. For example, I believe -- unfortunately -- that we would be currently at war in Iraq even if September 11th had never happened. But that's a matter for Politics and outside the scope of this thread. I reject the idea that September 11th is the root cause. I view it as more of an excuse and a case study than the cause itself. But, again, Politics. I'll comment no further on it in this thread.
 
So if one tiny aspect of a crime is unknown that means the crime remains unsolved? What sort of nonsense logic is that?


The logic is that: Without the demonisation of people like Avery and [forename] Jones, hyprocrites like you wouldn't be able to dismiss the questions we are asking so easily. And i mean real questions like what Cheney did that day, what NORAD did (and no, you didn't answer these questions - you simply can't answer them) and the evidence all the people not questioned by the commission wanted to put forward.
 
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