WTC collapses - Layman's terms again

[funk de fino]

Beachnut my big teacher, can you pls show me wich figure is the "rebuild" of the "Seat with Stiffener Plates" ind this document/test.

http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-6B.pdf

Why are you linking to the fire tests?

 

[DC]

I am not saying what you say I am. I am asking you what the most likely breaking point would be? You keep dodging and it is noted.

You said the core could stand on its own. Then you said the welding between the floor connections and the columns held the building up. You cannot have it both ways.

If the weight of the floors are dropped onto the ones below which part of the connections will give way first? If you fail to at least try and answer this from a logical point of view and continue to dodge and put words into my mouth then any lurkers can see this.

well i do agree with Beachnut, my nutty teacher, when he says the WTC construction is a system, it is a very very complex "system".
so i dont think that only the weldings help the building up, also the bolts, but also the steel angles and and and.

but pls let me ask you one questions what in the core "system" will give away mainly when it would collapse do to gravity? because it cannot stand alone according to you.

 

[DC]

Why are you linking to the fire tests?

because i wondered if there is a "rebuild" of the "Seat with Stiffer Plate" from Detail B i linked to.

im sure an engineer , wven non engineer can show me the green rubber thingy my teacher told me of, or something other that is representing what i ask for

 

[funk de fino]

well i do agree with Beachnut, my nutty teacher, when he says the WTC construction is a system, it is a very very complex "system".
so i dont think that only the weldings help the building up, also the bolts, but also the steel angles and and and.

So, you were wrong in your claim.

but pls let me ask you one questions what in the core "system" will give away mainly when it would collapse do to gravity? because it cannot stand alone according to you.

Wait a second pal, it works like this. I ask you a question, you answer. You may then ask me something in return if you wish. I will not dance around like you though. If I know, I will answer.

 

[rwguinn]

Who told you they can't?

Everybody who knows anything about modeling.
Prior to collapse, the solution is (relatively) simple. You have n equations for n unknowns.
Once collapse begins, you now have n equations in at least n^n unknowns.
The answer is indeterminate.

 

[funk de fino]

because i wondered if there is a "rebuild" of the "Seat with Stiffer Plate" from Detail B i linked to.

im sure an engineer , wven non engineer can show me the green rubber thingy my teacher told me of, or something other that is representing what i ask for

Why would they do it for the fire tests? They were testing the performance of the assemblies with fire proofing on.

 

[DC]

So, you were wrong in your claim.



Wait a second pal, it works like this. I ask you a question, you answer. You may then ask me something in return if you wish. I will not dance around like you though. If I know, I will answer.

well see, there seems to be a problem with my language or your tendency to twist my words.

isnt it that your claim

The welding does not matter.

is uther nonsence?

 

[applecorped]

Everybody who knows anything about modeling.
Prior to collapse, the solution is (relatively) simple. You have n equations for n unknowns.
Once collapse begins, you now have n equations in at least n^n unknowns.
The answer is indeterminate.

umm...thank you but the question was directed to DC to determine if he can support his statements or whether he is talking out of his ***. I suspect he knows nothing about modeling.

 

[DC]

Everybody who knows anything about modeling.
Prior to collapse, the solution is (relatively) simple. You have n equations for n unknowns.
Once collapse begins, you now have n equations in at least n^n unknowns.
The answer is indeterminate.

so with up to date soft and hardware we are not able to do some simulations that would be more accurate than a "theory" based on Elementary Calculations?

so a "nonlinear structural simulation" will not be as accurate as a some Elementary Calculations.......

and i get called liar.....

 

[funk de fino]

well see, there seems to be a problem with my language or your tendency to twist my words.

You claimed the building could not stand without the welding.

without the weldings it would have never been able to stand there in the first place

We were talking about the connections between the floors, the perimeter columns and the core columns. You have also claimed the core could stand on its own. If the building needed the welds to stand then the core could not stand on its own. We were not talking about the bracing or any other type of connection.

The core cannot stand on its own.

isnt it that your claim

This was part of my theoretical scenario to you.

So theoretically, if you dropped a weight that was in excess of the amount the floor was designed to hold as a static load, which part of the connection would most likely break first?

Do you know what hypothetical means? You asked for specifics about metals involved in the welding, I said it did not matter.

is uther nonsence?

See above not a claim.

Yet again you dance around like a child and will not answer questions.

 

[DC]

Why would they do it for the fire tests? They were testing the performance of the assemblies with fire proofing on.

i think i know why you sayd "would" insteed of "did"

isnt fig 4-8 and 4-13 something similar?

 

[DC]

You claimed the building could not stand without the welding.



We were talking about the connections between the floors, the perimeter columns and the core columns. You have also claimed the core could stand on its own. If the building needed the welds to stand then the core could not stand on its own. We were not talking about the bracing or any other type of connection.

The core cannot stand on its own.



This was part of my theoretical scenario to you.



Do you know what hypothetical means? You asked for specifics about metals involved in the welding, I said it did not matter.



See above not a claim.

Yet again you dance around like a child and will not answer questions.

you claerly said the weldings didnt mather.
i sayd without weldings, the building would not stand there in the first place.
do you say they did all those weldings just for fun? or are they part of Beachnuts system?

 

[funk de fino]

i think i know why you sayd "would" insteed of "did"

isnt fig 4-8 and 4-13 something similar?

Why would they recreate the rubber parts for a fire test on the steel? Are the connections they made during the test exactly like in the Towers?

You are still not answering questions asked of you. If you want to play games then carry on, if not I will continue. Just let me know when you want to act like an adult.

 

[DC]

umm...thank you but the question was directed to DC to determine if he can support his statements or whether he is talking out of his ***. I suspect he knows nothing about modeling.

well im pretty sure im on the save side when i claim that i know more about FEA modeling and CGI Modeling than you do. While i am totally sure Newton Bits for example knows alot more about FEA modeling. I think he was the only one that wondered that i would have only used a 2dof/node model on his test about my claim that FEA modeling is part of my job.
im sure he would use 8dof/node or more

 

[funk de fino]

you claerly said the weldings didnt mather.
i sayd without weldings, the building would not stand there in the first place.
do you say they did all those weldings just for fun? or are they part of Beachnuts system?

Lets just see how it went shall we

And the core was not designed as a building, it was designed as part of a building. Take away the perimeter columns due to the loss of connection between the floors, and the core falls down.

I will repeat an earlier question as you ignored it. If you look at the perimeter columns and the floor and the core columns what do you think the weakest link in the connection of these would have been if something was dropped on them?

i supect one of this connections in Detail A. dependent on the particular forces.

and do you know details to the Seat with Stiffener Plate in Detail B?
what kind of connection is that exactly?

So theoretically, if you dropped a weight that was in excess of the amount the floor was designed to hold as a static load, which part of the connection would most likely break first?

what is the assumed impact area?
what is the thickness of the wledings?
what metal was added in the Welding?

The floors above drop on the floors below. There is enough weight so that the designed limit for static load is exceeded due to the added momentum. The welding does not matter. What held the floors, perimeter columns and core columns together? What was the connection and what do you think the weakest point would be?

without the weldings it would have never been able to stand there in the first place

I was clearly talking about the connections from floor to columns. If it could not stand without those welds as you claimed then the core could not stand on its own.

I also was talking theoretically and said it did not matter about the welds in reply to your dodging about types of metals added and thickness of the welds.

Why is it so difficult to answer a question?

What would happen to the connections at the floors where they connect to the core and to the perimeter if the static load of the floor was exceeded?

 

[pomeroo]

It is possible, isn't it? Collapse arrest seems to have been overlooked. So I raise the topic in this link (message #1).

I doubt very strongly that it is possible. There are literally thousands of engineers and physicists who reach the same conclusion. You, whose incompetence has been demonstrated, beg to differ. Why should anyone take you seriously? The real engineers here point out your errors with regularity and you ignore everything they write.

 

[DC]

Why would they recreate the rubber parts for a fire test on the steel? Are the connections they made during the test exactly like in the Towers?

You are still not answering questions asked of you. If you want to play games then carry on, if not I will continue. Just let me know when you want to act like an adult.

when i say "rebuild" does that meen exactly? is something similar like something exactly the same?

 

[funk de fino]

well im pretty sure im on the save side when i claim that i know more about FEA modeling and CGI Modeling than you do. While i am totally sure Newton Bits for example knows alot more about FEA modeling. I think he was the only one that wondered that i would have only used a 2dof/node model on his test about my claim that FEA modeling is part of my job.
im sure he would use 8dof/node or more

And NIST and many on here know far more than you about buildings yet you think you know more. Why cant you model it if you are the expert?

You are being evasive, childish and quite frankly very annoying. You are not in the slightest bit interested in the truth or in learning anything. I find this very sad indeed.

 

[Heiwa]

And the core was not designed as a building, it was designed as part of a building. Take away the perimeter columns due to the loss of connection between the floors, and the core falls down.

Of course the core steel columns/horizontal beams assembly can stand for itself with no floors attached to it. 47 columns connected by horizontal beams every 3.7 metres spread over 600 m². Stresses are then very low in the columns. Say 2% yield due to own weight only. Reason? No floors attached.

Likewise the four perimeter columns wall can stand for themselves without floors attached - like a square empty cage held together by spandrels. The four walls support each other. You can even fit a roof on it. No collapse. Because stresses are very low - 2% yield due to own weight only. No floors attached.

And than you can hang floors between the perimeter and the core. They will add vertical loads to the perimeter and the core so that the stresses there increase ... to <30% yield. And then you can fit windows etc.

You don't seem to know much about steel structures, funk!

Nice with all these pictures of floors/trusses/columns and their connections shown above. Prove my point that the floors are just hanging on the columns. Held by bolts.

So if a column for any reasons is cut, shifted sideways onto the floors and then is displaced down (or up - floors moving down), then the column will slice through the floor like a knife. NIST, Bazant and Seffen missed that. They think there is an IMPACT.

Maybe the drawings were not available when they invented their fairy tales? Anyway, my children audience didn't fall for those - so I wrote the real story for them.

 

[funk de fino]

when i say "rebuild" does that meen exactly? is something similar like something exactly the same?

Nonsensical use of english renders this unreadable