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Most atheists do not know what science says about our origins

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He's a lousy programmer?

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Don't forget the 24 hour service desk line. Endless tape loop of celestial music occasionally interrupted by "Your prayer is important to us".
 
I'm afraid with Radrook that evidence doesn't matter. If you replaced the word evidence with "Jellybeans" it would hold the same meaning to him.
I don't say this to insult Radrook, but to highlight the fact that people who don't want to believe science do not care for evidence. They do not appreciate the difference between "wishes to be true" and having verifiable, repeatable, hypothesis testable evidence. To a scientist evidence is everything. To a believer, evidence is simply a word meaning "I believe more than you."

That's a misrepresentation of my position. I have absolutely no nothing against true science and do accept evidence. However, what I look at with suspicion is misinterpretation of evidence to fit preconceptions. Also the inconsistent application of criteria which indicates bias and dishonesty and total disregard for the very principles that science supposedly considers sacrosanct. When so-called scientists behave that way-then they are begging to be suspected of foul play.

I don't believe in a story that requires millions of happy accidents to be true. In fact, when I come across that type of tall tale in writing or in film, I immediately reject it as an insult to adult intelligence. In fact, even young children will protest if stories contain to many happy-go-lucky accidents.

BTW

There is no repeatable testable evidence in relation to abiogenesis.
What you have is a simple chemical reaction which is interpreted within the abiogenesis preconception as being proof of that preconception. Coming around full circle in the process. Now that's what I teach all my students.
 
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What's he complaining about, Articulette, I smell the "let's you and him fight" kind of false rhetoric from Jerome here?

Oh, Doc keeps persisting with saying that evolution teaches that all life came from a single cell--I told him it was more correct to say that all visible life-- eukaryots came from a single cell-- I tried to explain how mitochondria and chlorpasts were proto cells of sorts that became organelles in later eukaryotes... but he thinks that you are saying life didn't come from a single cell and that I'm saying it did. We both understand that all life on this planet has a common source, but we wouldn't necessarily describe that source as a single cell since some life forms are barely cells themselves...

But he's right in that evolution shows in stunning genetic detail that we all come from the same source and we meet up with the shared ancestors of life around us as we go back in time.

And, IMO, Jerome is just a garden variety creationist who denies he is a creationist... very self-important... never says anything... imagines that what he doesn't understand about evolution means that some alternate explanation that he never voices is correct. I just have him on ignore. To me, he's just a typical religious right wing kind of woo, but he denies believing in a creator (which of course will cause him to burn in hell :) )

They both extract the meaning they want from words in order to keep their delusion (that they never ever lay out for examination) alive. They think that by picking up facts and science, their alternative woo remains a likely possibility. As long as they don't understand the facts, they don't have challenge the faith they hold so dear. They vilify all those who explain or disbeliever whatever point they imagine they are making so as not to see that they are the incompetents they think everyone else is.

As for their point, your guess is as good as anybody's-- basically, I think it's: "you all suck for believing the evidence over me." But feel free to form your own interpretation.

You know creationist rhetoric... if they can find areas where scientists don't agree on the details of evolution, they can pretend it means that evolution isn't a fact.
 
I don't believe in a story that requires millions of happy accidents to be true.
Then you must reject creationism in all of its forms, because it would be so hard, otherwise, to get EVERYTHING right in a fashion that makes it seem like we evolved slowly over millions of years!
In fact, when I come across that type of tall tale in writing or in film, I imediately reject it as an insult to adult intelligence. In fact, even young children will protest if stories contain to many happy-go-lucky accidents.


Unlike evolution, in which the dead ends, extinctions, and disasters of this and that sundry kind are well established, showing that in fact, a random walk guided by selection is a painful, difficult process that goes slowly, in fits and starts, and leads to results that are not necessarily optimal.

What's your vermiform appendix for, anyhow?

I'm glad that you understand so clearly why you must utterly reject creation, and accept evolution.
 
I accept evidence. What I look at with suspicion is misinterpretation of evidence to fit preconceptions. Also the inconsistent application of criteria which indicates bias and dishonesty and total disregard for the very principles that science supposedly considers sacrasanct. When so-called scientists behave that way-then they are begging to be suspected of foul play.

BTW

I don't believe in a story that requires millions of happy accidents to be true. In fact, when I come across that type of tall tale in writing or in film, I imediately reject it as an insult to adult intelligence. In fact, even young children will protest if stories contain to many happy-go-lucky accidents.

which is why you shouldn't get your science from preacher men. Evolution is not about happy accidents... it's about a slow and steady accumulation of the very best "accidents" over time... Evolution is no mor a series of accidents then the evolution of cities and ecosystems and languages and market ecomomies. You don't need a designer to get complex things that look amazingly designed... like the internet... all you need is a way to replicate information and cull from the results.

Here's a geneticist, Jerry Coyne, discussing Behe's book--the ambiguity of "random"--the need to distinguish--and the fact that what we see in various species did not come about "randomly"...

On the basis of much evidence, scientists have concluded that mutations occur randomly. The term "random" here has a specific meaning that is often misunderstood, even by biologists. What we mean is that mutations occur irrespective of whether they would be useful to the organism. Mutations are simply errors in DNA replication. Most of them are harmful or neutral, but a few of them can turn out to be useful. And there is no known biological mechanism for jacking up the probability that a mutation will meet the current adaptive needs of the organism. Bears adapting to snowy terrain will not enjoy a higher probability of getting mutations producing lighter coats than will bears inhabiting non-snowy terrain.

What we do not mean by "random" is that all genes are equally likely to mutate (some are more mutable than others) or that all mutations are equally likely (some types of DNA change are more common than others). It is more accurate, then, to call mutations "indifferent" rather than "random": the chance of a mutation happening is indifferent to whether it would be helpful or harmful. Evolution by selection, then, is a combination of two steps: a "random" (or indifferent) step--mutation--that generates a panoply of genetic variants, both good and bad (in our example, a variety of new coat colors); and then a deterministic step--natural selection--that orders this variation, keeping the good and winnowing the bad (the retention of light-color genes at the expense of dark-color ones).

It is important to clarify these two steps because of the widespread misconception, promoted by creationists, that in evolution "everything happens by chance." Creationists equate the chance that evolution could produce a complex organism to the infinitesimal chance that a hurricane could sweep through a junkyard and randomly assemble the junk into a Boeing 747. But this analogy is specious. Evolution is manifestly not a chance process because of the order produced by natural selection--order that can, over vast periods of time, result in complex organisms looking as if they were designed to fit their environment. Humans, the product of non-random natural selection, are the biological equivalent of a 747, and in some ways they are even more complex. The explanation of seeming design by solely materialistic processes was Darwin's greatest achievement, and a major source of discomfort for those holding the view that nature was designed by God.


http://richarddawkins.net/article,12...e-New-Republic

If you got your science from actual scientists you wouldn't sound like a creationist throwing out creationist straw men... but I suppose a leopard can't change it's spots (at least not it's own generation...)
 
Then you must reject creationism in all of its forms, because it would be so hard, otherwise, to get EVERYTHING right in a fashion that makes it seem like we evolved slowly over millions of years!



Unlike evolution, in which the dead ends, extinctions, and disasters of this and that sundry kind are well established, showing that in fact, a random walk guided by selection is a painful, difficult process that goes slowly, in fits and starts, and leads to results that are not necessarily optimal.

What's your vermiform appendix for, anyhow?

I'm glad that you understand so clearly why you must utterly reject creation, and accept evolution.

Yes, radrook believes the most inane story of our origins based on the most unverifiable of evidence while no amount of actual verifiable evidence will get him to believe that which is obvious to all biologists.
 
which is why you shouldn't get your science from preacher men.

First, thanx for your decent reply and the info. I have a question which needs to be answered to claridfy matters a bit. Why do call fully-accredited scientists mere preacher men?



Evolution is not about happy accidents... it's about a slow and steady accumulation of the very best "accidents" over time...

What's the difference? If they are accidents, they remain accidents no matter the time involved. Calling the very best as opposed to happy makes no difference since they are synonymous.

Evolution is no more a series of accidents then the evolution of cities and ecosystems and languages and market ecomomies. You don't need a designer to get complex things that look amazingly designed... like the internet... all you need is a way to replicate information and cull from the results.

The examples you give aren't convincing because both the cities and the internet needed a guiding mind or minds to develop. That's similar to the hurricane 747 analogy example which I will admit is a false analogy since it doesn't take into consideration the factors you mention.

Here's a geneticist, Jerry Coyne, discussing Behe's book--the ambiguity of "random"--the need to distinguish--and the fact that what we see in various species did not come about "randomly"...

.... The explanation of seeming design by solely materialistic processes was Darwin's greatest achievement, and a major source of discomfort for those holding the view that nature was designed by God.[/I]

Strange since Darwin was a believer in God when he came up ewith that Idea and did not intend it to be an argument for atheists to disprove God's hand in the matter.
.


Excerpt
As a Deist, Charles Darwin believed that God set in motion the physical laws of the universe, which he proposed included laws of "natural selection" and the mutability of the speciesClearly, Charles Darwin was not an Atheist, and those among the "conservative" Theist who misrepresent him as such, do him great disservice. Since he never was an Atheist, he had nothing to recant, when his life drew near its end.http://av.rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geun...raphy/Charles-Darwin-Was-Not-an-Atheist.47125

http://richarddawkins.net/article,12...e-New-Republic

If you got your science from actual scientists you wouldn't sound like a creationist throwing out creationist straw men... but I suppose a leopard can't change it's spots (at least not it's own generation...)

Again the accusation that if you believe in ID you can't be a scientist. Which makes you sound extremely irrationally unfair since such an argument is nonsensical and can't be logically defended.
 
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Again the accusation that if you believe in ID you can't be a scientist. Which makes you sound extremely irrationally unfair since such an argument is nonsensical and can't be logically defended.


You can't be a scientist and believe ID is science. Heck, ID's strongest supporters couldn't even convince a US judge that ID is science.

After a searching review of the record and applicable caselaw, we find that while ID arguments may be true, a proposition on which the Court takes no position, ID is not science.

http://www.pamd.uscourts.gov/kitzmiller/kitzmiller_342.pdf
 
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Yes, radrook believes the most inane story of our origins based on the most unverifiable of evidence while no amount of actual verifiable evidence will get him to believe that which is obvious to all biologists.


What you mean is that since you tag all biologists who disagree with you as preachers and not biologists at all then the remainder-which you tag as the real biologists constitute 100% of biologists. Which is a boldfaced lie-which only serves to cast doubt on any other assertion you might chance to concuct.


Here are some who disagree with you and which you imediately call mere preachers:

Roger W. Sanders Ph.D. received a BA in Biology from the College of the Ozarks, Point Lookout, a M.S. in Botany from the University of Michigan,

William Sandine Ph.D. Emeritus Professor of Microbiology, Oregon State University. In 1994 he was appointed distinguished professor. In 1981 he was awarded an American Society of Microbiology Achievement Award.

John Sanford Ph.D. a Geneticist, Associate Professor Cornell University. His Ph.D. is in Plant Breeding/Plant

Genetics from the University of Wisconsin in Madison. Dr. Sanford has over seventy publications and holds 27 patents.

Julie Sanford M.En.S. is instructor of Science at Cornerstone University. She has a BA from Grand Rapids Baptist College and a M.En. S, from Miami University in Ohio.

Charles G. Sanny is Professor of Biochemistry at Oklahoma State University Center for Health Sciences

BTW
Constantly calling the belief in ID inane, and using the term sky fairy and orther such tactics does NOTHING in terms of convincing
a person who believes in ID to chanmge his mind. What it might convince the ID person is that name-calling and mockery are being used in order to annoy and in that case why even have it on the screen. But, as you said in reference to me-people simply don't change.
 
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Actually no peer reviewed biologists are ID proponents... their need to believe in magic makes them unable to understand or convey certain concepts. They, like you, have to claim that scientists think all this came about randomly. There are Christian evolutionists like Francis Collins-- they do not support ID because it is not supportable by any evidence at all. It pretends that a lack of evidence means that their "alternate explanation" could be true. So could Scientology and the Muslim explanation and the matrix by the exact same reasoning. That's why they are not scientists. That is why Behe' alma mater does not want to be associated with him. He is an embarrassment to them and all rigorous science. He promotes the same inanity you do... and won't let any amount of evidence correct it-- he was so embarrassingly laughable at the Dover trial--

If you don't understand and can't convey natural selection then real scientists in biology will treat you like an astronomer who thinks the earth is flat-- or a dentist whose salvation relies on a belief in the tooth fairy. Why? Because it's that ridiculous and insane. Young earth creationism is even more insane. I can't remember which version you've been brainwashed with--but the only person you are convincing with your rhetoric is your god and the invisible man you think wrote the magic book you get your science from.
 
Yeah... I better put Radrook back on ignore...

I think he blinks a neon warning of his viewpoint in every post. He has some major DOC leanings--

I think it's time to rid my mind of them both lest I say something that makes steam exit their ears.
 
And to clarify, you are talking about one individual organism (that for example can be given a name like Fred or Judy or LUCA, and not a group of similar one celled organisms)

So, just for the sake of argument, suppose we are talking about that. What then?
 
I've never read or seen anything that proves its a fact. And I have read a portion of Darwin's Origin of Species. But even if it is a fact, that doesn't disprove God.

This is one of the most cogent things I have seen you say. No scientific theory, evolution or otherwise, can "disprove God", nor does it try to. God, by definition, is an untestable entity, one does not try to "disprove God" anymore than one can try to "prove God" using the scientific method.

You are absolutely correct, Evolutionary theory has nothing to say about God. Neither does Relativity, QD, Germ theory, etc.

Since you understand this, it is completely baffling to me why your other posts indicate a huge bias against evolutionary theory as if it threatens belief in God, when in fact it has nothing whatsoever to say about it.

In other words, I have more evidence that Christianity is true than I have evidence that evolution is true.

That of course depends on what evidence one is willing to accept, and what evidence one is required by other beliefs to reject. People who see no conflict between the two, such as Kenneth Miller, apparently see evidence for both. Creationists who see a conflict, reject the evidence of evolutionary theory in favor of their religion.

The only question is, do you really believe there is no conflict or not. If you don't think there is a conflict, then the evidence of Evolutionary theory is trivially easy to demonstrate. If you do think there is a conflict, no amount of evidence will ever be enough. Simple.
 
That's a misrepresentation of my position. I have absolutely no nothing against true science and do accept evidence.
Your use of the word "true" science helps support my case. Radrook, I respect many of your opinions, but evolution is, indeed, science. It generates testable hypotheses and has resulted in multiple instances of validation. I once asked you for an alternative hypothesis to evolution which would explain 17 seperate observations. It is true that exact mechanisms by which certain aspects occur has not been worked out. It is also true that we may come across a part of life that does not fit evolutionary theory. If that occurs, than evolution will be disproven and a new theory will replace it. however, due to the success of evolution to explain so much of the observed data, it is unlikely that the new theory wouldn't have some sort of evolutionary component to it. Consider it a Newtonian/quantum mechanical split.

However, what I look at with suspicion is misinterpretation of evidence to fit preconceptions. Also the inconsistent application of criteria which indicates bias and dishonesty and total disregard for the very principles that science supposedly considers sacrosanct. When so-called scientists behave that way-then they are begging to be suspected of foul play.
I agree. That is why I have no respect for ID. it isn't science. It isn't even in the running as a comptetitor theory.

I don't believe in a story that requires millions of happy accidents to be true. In fact, when I come across that type of tall tale in writing or in film, I immediately reject it as an insult to adult intelligence. In fact, even young children will protest if stories contain to many happy-go-lucky accidents.
that's an odd statement. The collision of two chemical species is a random chance, and indeed can be considered a happy accident. But such an analogy is meaningless as we know it occurs.

Also, the chance of me existing is a "happy accident" There are ~300,000 oocytes per woman.
So there is a 1 in 300,000 chance that the right (Joobz egg to have been there)
There are about 10-100million sperm prodcued per day) So, assuming there are a good 50 years of sperm producing life in an average person, that results in about 0.2-2 trillion sperm. Which means that there was at best (not factoring in success of fertilization, success of development...) a 1 in 60,000 trillion chance that I would be here. But here I am. Do you doubt that I'm here, since I'm merely a happy accidenct?

You are arguing from incredulity, which only works if we have never observed the steps which would have led to the conditions we see. We know that these events are random and imporbable, but we know they occur. As such, incredulity doesn't work.

BTW

There is no repeatable testable evidence in relation to abiogenesis.
We know that abiogenesis had to occur. The question is how. Creationist claim it is god that did it (poofed life into existence). Since there is no proof of ANYTHING EVER having poofed into existence, I am led to believe that this explanation is wrong.

Science merely assumes that there is a natural mechanistic explanation. You are completely right to say that science has no real proof yet on what those mechanisms would be.


What you have is a simple chemical reaction which is interpreted within the abiogenesis preconception as being proof of that preconception. Coming around full circle in the process. Now that's what I teach all my students.
No one ever said that it was proof of natural abiogenesis. I certainly do not claim proof. But it is a testable hypothesis. Which makes it a scientific claim. Untested, yes. Unscientific, no.
 
Martians presenting themselves claiming that they initiated life on Earth also would falsify TOE. Your point is fallacious.

Sorry to be pedantic, but the Martians would have to present actual evidence, not just claim they did it. On top of which, initiating life would be abiogenesis, not ToE.

Now, the potential fossil find is not fallacious at all. Granted the rabbit comment is a bit off the cuff, but the point is correct: there are certain fossil finds that would cause serious difficulties for current CD theories, and would require extensive modification. If a modern human were found in the same fossil layer with dinosaurs, for example, that would be a serious problem. But it need not be so dramatic, there are others that could be found as well. There is nothing fallacious about that. Just because such finds haven't been made doesn't mean they could not be made.

And before you say that a modification is not falsification, that is how science treats all well established theories. You don't throw out a theory that has made correct predictions in the past because of a single problem, you find out why it doesn't work in certain situations and what new theories have to be incorporated into the overall framework. Newton's laws still work in most situations, and his equations are still used most of the time, with modest corrections for the effects of relativity at higher speeds and higher gravity.

But I am certain you will find some reason to dismiss this. I think it would be easier for you to list a few finds that _you_ think would be evidence to falsify ToE. Barring that, how about a few finds that would falsify some other well established theory such as relativity, QD or germ theory. Some indication of what you are looking for would I think be more helpful than playing verbal "whack a mole".
 
Here's a question off the top of my head:

How much should we respect or coddle anyone who equates abiogenesis with evolution this deep into the thread? Anyone who does at this point, in the face of your wonderfully patient explanations, is someone who is probably never, ever going to accept reality on its own terms. They are so entrenched in their belief that they aren't actually reading or attempting to understand anything you are trying to share with them.
 
Constantly calling the belief in ID inane, and using the term sky fairy and orther such tactics does NOTHING in terms of convincing
a person who believes in ID to chanmge his mind. What it might convince the ID person is that name-calling and mockery are being used in order to annoy and in that case why even have it on the screen. But, as you said in reference to me-people simply don't change.

ID proponents are inane, because ID is clearly not science yet they cannot see this when it is repeatedly pointed out to them in the clearest possible way.

It is not science for the simple reason that it deals exclusively with teleological principles. All ID proponents agree on one thing: one cannot say anything about how or why the "designer" performed a certain action. That is, questions of _mechanics_ are completely off limits, and those are the _only_ questions that the scientific method is concerned with because questions of mechanics are the only ones that are testable.

So there it is, ID in a nutshell: The only questions that ID is concerned with are not scientific (teleological), and the only questions that ID is _not_ concerned with _are_ scientific (mechanistic). It doesn't get much more unscientific than that.
 
I'll say this for the creationists:

Evolution does not care where life came from. The assumption that Evolution makes is that Life Already Exists.

How life came to be, and where it came from is a different branch of Biology.

The previous message is brought to you by the letter 'E'.
 
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