Vegetarianism seen through the skeptical eye

[Lilith]

I'm a veggie; I certainly don't do it for health reasons. My reasons came from the fact that I simply couldn't justify animals dying for me to have a greater choice on the dinner plate. I miss meat; even after 10 years - but not enough to go back to eating it.

I often tell people I'm a vegetarian. It's somewhat true. I eat very little meat, sometimes going long stretches without eating any, for similar reasons as Rocko's. I have a hard time accepting the killing of animals. Kinda makes my career difficult (research biologist). I was never that fond of meat - neither the taste nor the texture. I don't miss red meat at all - I never really liked it. I eat a little chicken and fish FOR health reasons. I do miss ham and bacon, but I don't like the idea of killing pigs, so I don't eat it. And I refuse to try venison. I do not try to convince others to feel the same. I usually don't even mention my moral reason for not eating much meat, but instead just say that I don't like meat.

I make up for the protein by being naturally very fond of beans, eggs, milk, and ice cream. I order tofu when I'm out, but never cook with it (well, I don't cook much at all).

... the hilarious carnivores who, on finding out you don't eat meat, will wave bits of bacon or sausage in your face and then bang on and on about how amazing meat is, how they *love* steak etc etc. IME that's a far more common phenomenon than the preaching vegetarian.

Yes. I find it gross, though. And, around here, I have idiots try to tell me their huntin' stories each winter because they are sure it will bother me. Ugh.

 

[Dr. Imago]

Is there any scientific evidence that meat (or certain types of meat) is harmful for human beings?

Eating meat is not harmful. Repetitively overeating (anything) can be harmful... eventually.

Avoiding animal products altogether creates a deficiency of vitamin B12. Even the strictest vegan will have to supplement B12, produced by bacteria in animals and subsequently derived from those animals products or by ingesting specific bacteria, in order to avoid illness.

Is there any evidence of this old claim that supposedly, the stress that the animal goes through when he is killed somehow remains in its flesh which we eat and thus, harms us?

Doubtful. Epinephrine and norepinephrine are rapidly degraded by catechol-O-methyltransferase (COMT) in the bloodstream on the order of a few minutes. This enzyme does not immediately stop functioning when an animal dies, and likely will breakdown any residual, even non-circulating, elevated levels of catecholamines in the bloodstream released from a "stress response" before the animal is processed.

-Dr. Imago

 

[CapelDodger]

I'm a veggie; I certainly don't do it for health reasons. My reasons came from the fact that I simply couldn't justify animals dying for me to have a greater choice on the dinner plate. I miss meat; even after 10 years - but not enough to go back to eating it.

One thing that does wind me up is the perception of vegetarians as ceaseless proselytisers; IME that's very rarely the case. Most veggies just get on with it; the idea of trying to convert people to their diet just isn't a consideration.

Far more common are the hilarious carnivores who, on finding out you don't eat meat, will wave bits of bacon or sausage in your face and then bang on and on about how amazing meat is, how they *love* steak etc etc. IME that's a far more common phenomenon than the preaching vegetarian.

That's my experience. We need only look at the thread title. I'm not affronted by meat-eating, I just don't do it myself. The affront is mostly taken by others, for some reason.

 

[Ateius]

The affront is mostly taken by others, for some reason.

Because of PETA's antics, perhaps? Guilt by association?

 

[luchog]

To your specific questions, I have little evidence. I am told that adrenaline will ruin meat, but I have no citations to support that.

Dunno if it "ruins" it, but it sure makes it taste like ◊◊◊◊.

* The physiology of humans was clearly evolved to handle consumption of various food sources: including meat and vegetables, etc.

Just because it can handle certain foods, doesn't necessary mean it should. Certainly not in the quantities that most westerners tend to eat them.

* Certain proteins, and other nutrients, are harder to come by in vegetable form.

This a myth that is long since debunked. Oh, and the term you're looking for there is "amino acids", not "proteins". The idea that it's not possible to get a sufficient balance of amino acids has been thoroughly refuted, and was based on an outdated and erroneous concept of how many seperate amino acids are actually necessary (the human body has been noted to synthesize most amino acids it needs), as well as the amount of protein necessary. The one amino acid that was considered tricky is Lysine. However, this appears in moderate concentrations in most grains; and in very high concentrations in soybeans, amaranth, and a few other sources. In fact, soy has a higher concentration of bioavailable protein than any animal source, and amaranth is not much lower than most animal sources. Legumes have all the other necessary amino acids in highly concentrated and bioavailable forms.

The average adult residing in a First World country eats many times the amount of protein he actually needs in a day. A bowl of beans and rice, or a few ounces of tofu, a day is pretty much all that's really necessary. Obviously, if your body is still developing, you're sick, or have one of a number of system dysfunctions, then you're going to need more protein, but that's not difficult either.

The other old myth of vegetarianism is lack of iron. This is also untrue. Dark green leafy vegetables, most legumes, and many root vegetables contain at least as much bioavailable iron as any animal souce. Iron deficiency is the result of a poor diet, not a vegetarian one.

The only serious deficiency of a purely vegan (no animal products at all) diet is vitamin B12. This is definitely not a myth, since there is only one known siginificant source for bioavailable B12 that is not animal-based, and that is a particular kind of yeast. The big problem with this deficiency is that it's a very slow and progressive one. The body contains large B12 reserves, and it can take years for deficiency symptoms to manifest to the point where they're obvious; and by that time, the damage is often done. This is not a problem for non-vegan vegetarians who eat dairy and/or egg products, as both of these provide sufficient B12; and taking regular cultured-yeast B12 supplements solves the problem for vegans.

I'm, personally, a vegetarian for health reasons. I cannot easily digest animal products. Not sure if it's an allergy as such, or some other dysfunction, but I am unable to eat meat. Fish I can manage, and eggs and dairy don't seem to be a problem, if I don't overdo it.

It is possible to be a vegetarian/vegan and be extremely unhealthy; the same as it is for an omnivore. Eating too many processed foods will make anyone unhealthy; and many pre-packaged/processed vegetarian foods are very high in unhealthy fats, due to the amount of coconut oil, palm kernal oil, and hydrogenated oils that they use; all of which contain more saturated fat than any animal product.

 

[JoeEllison]

That's my experience. We need only look at the thread title. I'm not affronted by meat-eating, I just don't do it myself. The affront is mostly taken by others, for some reason.

Meat! MEAT! MEEEEEEAT!!!!

You're an affront to good taste, my friend. Frankly, I don't care what you eat, so long as you eat bacon, the closest thing to a good reason to believe in a kind and benevolent god.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I agree, though I don't think veganism is an unreasonable moral position. It doesn't (necessarily) rely on spurious metaphysics, though I accept that a lot of vegetarians and perhaps most vegans do frame their beliefs in that way.

Funny, I've heard meat-eating justified using spurious theological arguments (not here, of course). God created the animals for our use. God gave humans a soul but not other animals, etc.

 

[JoeEllison]

Funny, I've heard meat-eating justified using spurious theological arguments (not here, of course). God created the animals for our use. God gave humans a soul but not other animals, etc.

I think that's full of crap. Meat eating is based on the fact that grilled animal flesh is tasty. Any argument beyond that is BS rationalization.

 

[volatile]

Even the strictest vegan will have to supplement B12, produced by bacteria in animals and subsequently derived from those animals products or by ingesting specific bacteria, in order to avoid illness.

Nonsense.

Have you not heard of Marmite?

 

[soylent]

Doesn't raising animals for food require significantly more energy that a vegetarian diet?

http://geosci.uchicago.edu/~gidon/papers/nutri/nutriEI.pdf

Depends. Grain/corn fed, yes, but not when they are grass fed.

 

[Lilith]

Regarding B12 - cool fact: it's produced by bacteria in the gut! But most of it is produced downstream (so to speak) of good absorption sites. We humans excrete the B-12 made in our intestines. Cows get lots of B12 by regurgitating a few times (ick) and that's why beef and dairy products are a good source of B12. Keep in mind that many of our foods are fortified with extra vitamins (cereal, e.g.), including B12, so even if you don't take a supplement, you're probably getting a supplement anyway.

As I said, I rarely eat meat - but due to an unusually high serum iron level (go figure!) I was tested for a B12 deficiency, and my B12 was absolutely average. Incidentally, my high iron is coupled with slightly higher than normal tsat, and anemic-low ferritin. My high iron, tested 3 times in the last few years, may just be due to a diurnal variation phenomenon and red blood cell turnover. In the afternoon it looks better than it does in the morning.

 

[CapelDodger]

Meat! MEAT! MEEEEEEAT!!!!

You're an affront to good taste, my friend. Frankly, I don't care what you eat, so long as you eat bacon, the closest thing to a good reason to believe in a kind and benevolent god.

I'd eat cat first.

I used to know this guy who was brought up Jewish but realised he was an atheist early on. After a while of thinking on the whole thing it occurred to him that pork, in all its forms, was back on the menu. He could drop that revulsion response that he realised he'd been trained to.

Instead of removing that revulsion this realisation extended it to all meat. It was emotionally easier to take all meat off the menu than to put pork on it. The human mind's a funny old thing, don'cha think? Like, what's the problem with roadkill as long as it's fresh?

There's a whole world of cheeses out there, you know .

 

[CapelDodger]

I think that's full of crap. Meat eating is based on the fact that grilled animal flesh is tasty. Any argument beyond that is BS rationalization.

Meat-eating came before cooking, let alone grills. Have you not seen film of chimps tearing into monkey-flesh in a frenzy? We've evolved to gorge on fats, sugars, protein, and salt because they didn't always come our way every day (and may not in future). Meat scores well on that reckoning, and when cooked it scores even higher.

 

[CapelDodger]

Nonsense.

Have you not heard of Marmite?

All B-vitamins are present in Beer. That's what the "B" signifies (scientifically). I heard it from this guy up the pub, so it must be true.

 

[JoeEllison]

Meat-eating came before cooking, let alone grills. Have you not seen film of chimps tearing into monkey-flesh in a frenzy? We've evolved to gorge on fats, sugars, protein, and salt because they didn't always come our way every day (and may not in future). Meat scores well on that reckoning, and when cooked it scores even higher.

Meat!!

I just cook it to get it back to more-or-less body temperature.

 

[JoeEllison]

I'd eat cat first.

I'd eat cat too, if you cook it right!

I used to know this guy who was brought up Jewish but realised he was an atheist early on. After a while of thinking on the whole thing it occurred to him that pork, in all its forms, was back on the menu. He could drop that revulsion response that he realised he'd been trained to.

Game on!

Instead of removing that revulsion this realisation extended it to all meat. It was emotionally easier to take all meat off the menu than to put pork on it.[ The human mind's a funny old thing, don'cha think?

Game not on?

Like, what's the problem with roadkill as long as it's fresh?

Depends on the animal and your definition of "fresh". I've eaten venison from a deer that a friend ran over.

There's a whole world of cheeses out there, you know .

There's nothing wrong with a side of cheese fries.

 

[Kahalachan]

Some of the claims made by some vegans/vegetarians definitely call for skepticism.

-Meat is always unhealthy
-Animal testing produces no useful data.

That aside, I would say most do it for moral reasons.

That's not for me. For moral reasons, I refuse to eat dolphin, chimpanzee, gorilla, orangutan, human, neanderthal, etc. For emotional reasons I won't eat dog or cat.

 

[CapelDodger]

I'd eat cat too, if you cook it right!

Game on!

Game not on ?

Depends on the animal and your definition of "fresh". I've eaten venison from a deer that a friend ran over.

You seem to have an almost diametrically opposite reaction to me friend's : If any meat's on the menu, it's all on the menu. Which is a fine and rational position to take. It's people who turn their noses up at, say, horse-meat that get my goat. If I was stranded in the Andes I'd be cooking up the airkill from day one so that we could eke out the complementary peanuts and keep some kind of balanced diet.

There's nothing wrong with a side of cheese fries.

How very Colonial .

 

[CapelDodger]

Some of the claims made by some vegans/vegetarians definitely call for skepticism.

-Meat is always unhealthy
-Animal testing produces no useful data.

"Vegan" and "vegetarian" are types of diet; animal testing only comes into it in terms of taste-testing. By people who eat meat.

Whether JoeEllison would eat labkill (given all the relevant documentation), well, that's for him to say. (I'm thinking "yes, he would" myself.) Would you?

 

[JoeEllison]

I don't know if my position is rational, but it is pretty consistent. I also have a problem with people who won't eat some animals, but eat others, for any reason besides health or taste reasons. I mean, there's some animal meat I just don't like, mostly some of the odder roadkill stuff like possum and raccoon. If I had to eat it, I would.

One of my favorite shows on the TV, BTW, is Bizarre Foods with Andrew Zimmern. That guy will eat ANYTHING, and I admire his spirit, even if he does go places that I'm not sure I could.