Should prostitution be legalized?

[GStan]

Jaana isn't proposing to educate men out of their natural biological attraction to women. She's proposing to educate men to respect women.

Perhaps, but the sentence that preceded her two proposed solutions implied that she wanted to eliminate the demand. Such education may or may not result in a more respectful male population, but it will not reduce demand. The demand is governed by natural biological attraction.

Additionally, can a John be respectful to a prostitute? Is having sex with a prostitute necessarily disrespectful to women? Can't such activity be conducted where both parties are respectful to each other?

 

[Michael C]

Additionally, can a John be respectful to a prostitute? Is having sex with a prostitute necessarily disrespectful to women? Can't such activity be conducted where both parties are respectful to each other?

I would hope that this is possible. I'm sure that there are clients who respect the prostitutes, but the evidence points to them being in the minority. According to all reports I have read from people who have interviewed large numbers of prostitutes, the majority of clients are not just paying for having a nice time. They're paying for having power over somebody, power to humiliate or power to hurt.

As I said in my first post in this thread, if we can detach the violence and abuse from prostitution, I'm all for it being legal. If we can ensure that every client considers the prostitute with respect, all well and good. I just don't know how to achieve this. Simply making prostitution legal is not enough.

 

[The Atheist]

Who is Adam and Eve? And how do you know what women thought ever since this person "Eve" saw "Adam's" "reaction to her nudity?"

Who is "Noah?" And please support evidence of you assertion that "some women (were) forced into prostitution through slavery or economic necessity" during the days of this person "Noah."

Glad to see you had the humour bypass at the same you got the common sense removed.

If you want to try to argue that prostitution is not an extremely old profession, please go ahead and do so. If you doubt that women have been forced into prostitution for thousands of years, you're just being deliberately obtuse.

African-American slavery went away, despite the fact that some even wished to continue serving their "owners."

Oh yeah, it went away all on its own, did it? I seem to remember a small matter called the American Civil War which may have had something to do with it. What are you going to do to stop prostitution? Civil war, men vs women?

Blaming men is pointless? Men are the primary reason (the primary demand) for the existence of prostitution and other sex 'industries'! Without the demand, there would be no sex industry!

Oh, you are going to start a war of the sexes!

How to stop them? Simple:

• Standing up against mass media and demanding that the sexualization of degradation, subordination, sexism and violence against women and children is stopped.
• Educating men, most effectively during childhood, that women are not 'sex toys' or 'commodities', and that they are to be respected and treated equally as men.

OMG! You know, I think you actually believe that. Ten thousand years and you're going to stop it by teaching the little boys that women aren't commodities. Genius.

Why do you think it's going to work all of a sudden when the problem hasn't ever gone away in all human history? Please do try to inject at least a little realism through those rose-tinted spectacles!

Just as a side issue, I'd be most interested to know how women being "respected and treated equally as men." is going to help the situation? You are aware that men not only beat the crap out of each other, they have been known to rape and/or pay for sex with one another?

Please provide evidence to support your claim. So far, the evidence posted has pointed in the complete opposite direction.

Here, read and learn. From the horses' mouths instead of whatever fantasyland you inhabit.

Please provide evidence for your claim that "most of the women against prostitution are also pro-lifers."

I said that in my experience, that is the case. Meg was straight on the money.

I am not a pro-lifer, nor is any other woman that i know who is against porn or prostitution.

Just to confirm that, because labels can be misleading, that means that you are anti-abortion, correct? If so, then at least your position is consistent.

Curiosity question: Do you live in the bible-belt or some place similar? If so, that might explain some of the assertions you have made, and some of the language you tend to use (i.e. "righteous indignation".... )

Uh, no. That's just the way I talk. I live in one of the least religious societies on earth. I do, however, have several friends who are past or current prostitutes, all of whom work as hookers by personal choice for the extreme income it provides. Those women would laugh in your face at you trying to "save" them from themselves. One of them is a near-completed MA Psych candidate.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I'd like to toss in teh gehys. With prostitution and pornography it always reaches a gender war where men view women as objects. Well, what about gay porn and male prostitutes? Do these exist because men see men as merely sex objects for their own amusement?

And I don't really see how telling boys in school that girls are more than a head is going to stop prostitution. I really just don't get it.

And do you think that the schools aren't already trying? The entire slant of my sex ed course was that men only date women to get into their pants and then leave them. And men only date certain women to gain points. And women are more than just a head. Blah, blah, blah. Let me tell you, I don't think it had the magical effect you think it might.

And would you stop comparing a job to slavery. My god, I only thought socialists would pull the "labor turns people into objects to be sold, it turns them into less than human, this allows the rich people to abuse them for profit blah, blah, blah."

 

[OneShotKi11]

Should be leagal and non regulated.

If you regulate it your just going to be back at square one.
Regulated Prostitutes will charge more then those who are not regulated.

Men will be cheap and go to non regulated prostitutes, and the fighting Task force will be out still trying to catch non legal Prostitutes.

Which in the end will still be the law trying to catch illegal prostitutes.
Basically where we are now!

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Should be leagal and non regulated.

If you regulate it your just going to be back at square one.
Regulated Prostitutes will charge more then those who are not regulated.

Men will be cheap and go to non regulated prostitutes, and the fighting Task force will be out still trying to catch non legal Prostitutes.

Which in the end will still be the law trying to catch illegal prostitutes.
Basically where we are now!

But there would be an incentive to paying the extra money to lower the risk of disease, and that it is legal. I don't know if there are many people that cheap.

 

[meg]

The real issue here is those arguing against legalization really *need* the slave trade to be lumped in with prostitution for your argument to hold. You are making a fantasy argument that demand is somehow linked to legality when it's plainly not. Legalization opens these places to inspection, with our current system there is no regulation to protect sex workers and this is what widens the avenue for abuse. Where there IS legal brothels, such as in Nevada, I don't see a huge influx of sex slaves but maybe you have some data that would challenge that notion.

No Kosai, the fantasy argument is the argument that prostitution and human trafficking do not go hand in hand. The facts are that in those places where prostitution is legalized and/or tolerated, human trafficking for sexual exploitation increases.


Magyar, I am awaiting the arrival of this book: http://www.lulu.com/content/1134372 and a trip to the library to retrieve some articles I've reserved before I will feel able to speak specifically about exactly what is happening in Nevada. In the meantime, you yourself have not posted anything other than your own opinions about what the definition of prostitution is, and some hearsay about prostitutes being able to refuse customers in NV brothels, and a link to the advertising website of a brothel. You've provided absolutely no evidence to support anything.

Here are a few articles we could start with, though, if you really want to talk about Nevada:

Outlaw Industry Ex-prostitutes say: Researcher spotlights human trafficking
http://www.lvrj.com/news/9612332.html

OPERATION DOLL HOUSE: Bust 'just tip of the iceberg'
Authorities suspect women forced into prostitution
http://www.lvrj.com/news/7164646.html

IGNORING PROSTITUTION: Human trafficking and Nevada
http://www.lvrj.com/opinion/7483782.html

Women nabbed in raid to stay
Trafficking victims won't be deported
http://www.lvrj.com/news/7331261.html

Police carry out raids of brothels
Establishments linked to organized crime
http://www.lvrj.com/news/7147256.html

California man sentenced to 30 years for bringing girl to LV for prostitution
http://www.lvrj.com/news/9441096.html

If you think that human trafficking is not happening in Nevada, you are wrong.

If you think that legal brothels in Nevada are full of happy healthy hookers, read this one http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/sep/07/usa.gender

If you wish me to believe that prostitution can be reformed to be a legitimate industry that respects a woman's autonomy, provides for her physical safety, and works to provide an environment free of harassment, as well as eliminates the infiltration of traffickers that exploit women for the purpose of prostitution, all you have to do is show me some place that does it that way. Show me a system that works. Show me someplace where the majority of women don't want out. Show me someplace where the majority of women have other legal methods of receiving a liveable income, but who choose to be prostitutes instead, because it is just a better job.

 

[OneShotKi11]

But there would be an incentive to paying the extra money to lower the risk of disease, and that it is legal. I don't know if there are many people that cheap.

Trust me it will happen no matter the cost.

Being regulated will cost the prostitutes money. Nothing regulated by the government is going to be free. Plenty of prostitutes wont want to waste the money or time to get regulated. Plus it will just be an extra useless cost on the taxpayer.

It girls want money for sex then so be it. The risk of catching a disease is something a man will always have to face. Even if its not prostitution and is a girl he met in a bar for free. The risk of disease will be their so i feel regulating it for disease control is pointless.

Its probably only illegal because they cant keep track of and tax it!!!!

 

[meg]

Atheist, even though this is irrelevent to the conversation, I think you are confused.

"Pro-life" = anti-abortion = against abortion

You have stated that you think most women who are against prostitution are "pro-life".

I am not pro-life. Neither is Jaana.

 

[The Atheist]

Show me a system that works. Show me someplace where the majority of women don't want out. Show me someplace where the majority of women have other legal methods of receiving a liveable income, but who choose to be prostitutes instead, because it is just a better job.

I have already, several times in this thread: New Zealand Prostitutes' Collective.

Atheist, even though this is irrelevent to the conversation, I think you are confused.

"Pro-life" = anti-abortion = against abortion

You have stated that you think most women who are against prostitution are "pro-life".

I am not pro-life. Neither is Jaana.

Duh, me!

You're quite right. I meant pro-abortion - I have no idea how I stuffed that up! But it is absolutely relevant, because on one hand you're saying women are entitled to abortion (in your case, up to birth) because her body is her own, but on the other, you're denying her right to do what she wants with her body - sell it for sex.

In effect, you're saying that murder* is ok, but prostitution isn't.

*In NZ, Australia, England and most of USA, murder charges may be brought against a person killing a foetus of 8 month + gestation.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Even if prostitution is somehow morally objectionable and damages women I still don't get how throwing them in jail helps the situation. Some jobs are dirty and the dirtier the job the higher the pay. I would much rather have legalization than the current set of half enforced laws.

Also for anyone wondering if Jaana lives in the real world take a look at the 'porn generation' thread. Her opinion definitely comes across as man-hating and unrealistic.

 

[Island Skeptic]

If you want to try to argue that prostitution is not an extremely old profession, please go ahead and do so. If you doubt that women have been forced into prostitution for thousands of years, you're just being deliberately obtuse.

No, i do not deny that prostitution dates back thousands of years. But, i would not be so confident as to claim it is "the oldest profession." I believe slavery is the oldest "profession."

African-American slavery went away, despite the fact that some even wished to continue serving their "owners."

Oh yeah, it went away all on its own, did it? I seem to remember a small matter called the American Civil War which may have had something to do with it. What are you going to do to stop prostitution? Civil war, men vs women?

I was merely following your choice of terminology.
My response was to your statement:

Whether it is legal or not it will not go away.

And, I do not believe a civil war would be necessary to stop prostitution. Simply education and awareness.

Blaming men is pointless? Men are the primary reason (the primary demand) for the existence of prostitution and other sex 'industries'! Without the demand, there would be no sex industry!

Oh, you are going to start a war of the sexes!

Do you honestly believe there would be a 'sex industry' if all men withdrew their demand for it?

How to stop them? Simple:

* Standing up against mass media and demanding that the sexualization of degradation, subordination, sexism and violence against women and children is stopped.
* Educating men, most effectively during childhood, that women are not 'sex toys' or 'commodities', and that they are to be respected and treated equally as men.

OMG! You know, I think you actually believe that. Ten thousand years and you're going to stop it by teaching the little boys that women aren't commodities. Genius.

Why do you think it's going to work all of a sudden when the problem hasn't ever gone away in all human history? Please do try to inject at least a little realism through those rose-tinted spectacles!

Not long ago, very few people would have imagined such a concept as equal rights & the idea of an African-American or a woman running for president. They would have been just as quickly brushed off and accused of unrealistic idealism.

Just as a side issue, I'd be most interested to know how women being "respected and treated equally as men." is going to help the situation?

How would it hurt?

You are aware that men not only beat the crap out of each other, they have been known to rape and/or pay for sex with one another?

Yes. Your point is...?

Please provide evidence to support your claim. So far, the evidence posted has pointed in the complete opposite direction.

Here, read and learn. From the horses' mouths instead of whatever fantasyland you inhabit.

Biased, and proves nothing.

Please provide evidence for your claim that "most of the women against prostitution are also pro-lifers."

I said that in my experience, that is the case. Meg was straight on the money.

No, you did not say "in my experience."
You boldly stated, "Most of the women against prostitution are also pro-lifers!"

I am not a pro-lifer, nor is any other woman that i know who is against porn or prostitution.

Just to confirm that, because labels can be misleading, that means that you are anti-abortion, correct? If so, then at least your position is consistent.

Pro-life is anti-abortion!

I specifically said i am NOT a pro-lifer, which means i support a woman's right to have an abortion.

Curiosity question: Do you live in the bible-belt or some place similar? If so, that might explain some of the assertions you have made, and some of the language you tend to use (i.e. "righteous indignation"....)

Uh, no. That's just the way I talk. I live in one of the least religious societies on earth.

OK, good.

I do, however, have several friends who are past or current prostitutes, all of whom work as hookers by personal choice for the extreme income it provides. Those women would laugh in your face at you trying to "save" them from themselves. One of them is a near-completed MA Psych candidate.

Well, i am happy to hear your prostitute friends are/were financially successful, although you somehow failed to mention anything about their level of happiness or sense of fulfillment with their occupation (or past occupation).

Unfortunately there are far more sad stories than happy ones, and far too many prostitutes are harmed than not.

I ventured to the "Bunny Ranch" link someone posted here, which proudly provided a link to an interview between one of their top young prostitutes "Air Force Amy" and Tyra Banks on its home page:

http://www.bunnyranch.com/news/TyraBanksShow/story2/

"It was evident that this type of life took a toll on these women. When asked where they saw themselves in five years, Amy replied, 'I'll be dead by the end of this year'" (and then added that she says that every year)

Hmm... This does not sound very encouraging, especially as it is coming from a young prostitute who was specifically selected for this interview to represent the brothel, but also: one of the more "esteemed" brothels around?

"I'll be dead by the end of this year" just doesn't have a pleasant ring to it.

....and it certainly makes one wonder how the "lower-leveled" prostitutes of this "esteemed" brothel feel.

 

[Island Skeptic]

Even if prostitution is somehow morally objectionable and damages women I still don't get how throwing them in jail helps the situation.

I'm not sure anyone has suggested throwing the prostitutes in jail. The general consensus, i believe, is to prosecute the "johns" and the "pimps" -but not the prostitutes.

Also for anyone wondering if Jaana lives in the real world take a look at the 'porn generation' thread. Her opinion definitely comes across as man-hating and unrealistic.

Awww, Trino.... You are just jealous.

 

[kosai]

No Kosai, the fantasy argument is the argument that prostitution and human trafficking do not go hand in hand. The facts are that in those places where prostitution is legalized and/or tolerated, human trafficking for sexual exploitation increases.

Most of the links you've provided are concerning Operation Dollhouse and other similar asian human trafficking incidents in the Las Vegas area. The problem with the articles you've presented as evidence is that they took place in Clark County. In Clark County prostitution is ILLEGAL, so basically the proof you've shown is that where it is illegal doesn't stop the human trafficking anyway. The Guardian article was an interesting read and I definately don't support the abuses they cover however I would love to see the laws they claim are on the books to protect slave like ownership of the women who work there. Also, we should remember the porn industry also began with such abuses however as time goes on those "inside" the industry begin to rise up and the, usually women, entrepreneurs begin to make changes to the industry. The industry recieves more light and the abuses can be worked out, better companies emerge and the actors and actresses can move to where they feel better respected. One needs to look no further than adult video to see the process of bringing light to socially uneasy businesses helps, not hurts, those involved.

 

[Island Skeptic]

You're quite right. I meant pro-abortion - I have no idea how I stuffed that up! But it is absolutely relevant, because on one hand you're saying women are entitled to abortion (in your case, up to birth) because her body is her own, but on the other, you're denying her right to do what she wants with her body - sell it for sex.

In effect, you're saying that murder* is ok, but prostitution isn't.

Are you pro-life or something? This is a topic for a whole other thread if you wish to argue over whether abortion is "murder" or not, but the last time i checked, the general consensus was that abortion is not "murder."

Abortion is a completely different issue that cannot even remotely be compared to prostitution.

*In NZ, Australia, England and most of USA, murder charges may be brought against a person killing a foetus of 8 month + gestation.

I am quite sure that most of us who are pro-abortion are referring to abortions prior to the term of 8 months ("close to term").

 

[GStan]

No, i do not deny that prostitution dates back thousands of years. But, i would not be so confident as to claim it is "the oldest profession." I believe slavery is the oldest "profession."

Doesn't the term 'profession' presume that one is getting some kind of payment?

And, I do not believe a civil war would be necessary to stop prostitution. Simply education and awareness.

Do you honestly believe there would be a 'sex industry' if all men withdrew their demand for it?

Are you being serious? You make it sound like we have a choice or something.

 

[meg]

Atheist, a website seeking to improve conditions for sex workers in New Zealand is not evidence that New Zealand's prostitution industry is without problems.

The Nature and Extent of the Sex Industry in New Zealand: An Estimation
http://justice.org.nz/pubs/reports/...-nz-estimation/nature-extent-sex-industry.pdf

2.3.3 Exploitation of sex workers

Police respondents were asked if they were aware of exploitation of sex workers in their area and just over a quarter (11) answered affirmatively. Exploitation took a variety of forms.

Bonds and fines system
Three respondents mentioned a system of fines and bonds. Workers in parlours were fined for turning up late or not doing what a client wanted them to do. Parlour owners held back credit or wages and used this to pressure workers to come in when sick. Some parlours also required a bond for the privilege of working there which was not paid back if the worker left after a short period.

In addition, one respondent mentioned that some workers did not get their fair share of money charged in some parlours - one business was known to charge the client $145 per hour, but the worker only got $45.

Use of drugs

Three respondents mentioned the use of drugs in combination with sex work. This included sex workers being forced to work in order to fuel their drug habit or that of their boyfriends. In some cases it was reported that workers were given free drugs to get them 'hooked' and were then forced to work to supply their habit.

Unreported crime against sex workers

A couple of respondents indicated that many sex workers did not report crimes committed against them.

Foreign workers
Three respondents mentioned exploitation of immigrant sex workers. This could take several forms. One mentioned that passports were sometimes withheld from foreign workers. Another indicated that students were brought here on the pretence of learning English and were then forced to work as sex workers.

Street workers

A couple of respondents mentioned that street workers were particularly vulnerable to exploitation. One mentioned the territorial aspect of the street industry and another that some street workers were under the influence of minders.

Other forms of exploitation

Other forms of exploitation included workers being forced to have unprotected sex, stand-over tactics in return for sexual favours and gang involvement.

...

3.3.3 Exploitation of sex workers

Bonds and fines system

NZPC key informants mentioned that sex workers were frequently exploited in their employment conditions. In particular, employers sometimes use a system of fines to coerce certain behaviors from their workers. This may include sex workers seeing more clients or working longer hours than they wish.

This system of bonds and fines was facilitated by the fact that more recently money no longer passes between the client and worker but instead is managed centrally by the house because of the increasing use of payment by Eftpos and Visa. ...

In total, 210 workers under the age of 18 were identified and over half (60%) were located in the street sector. Three-quarters of those under age workers were identified in one police district.

Non New Zealand sex workers were considered to be a significant issue in the greater Auckland area. These workers were predominately from Thailand and China but other Asian countries were also represented.

 

[Magyar]

Magyar, I am awaiting the arrival of this book: http://www.lulu.com/content/1134372 and a trip to the library to retrieve some articles I've reserved before I will feel able to speak specifically about exactly what is happening in Nevada. In the meantime, you yourself have not posted anything other than your own opinions about what the definition of prostitution is, and some hearsay about prostitutes being able to refuse customers in NV brothels, and a link to the advertising website of a brothel. You've provided absolutely no evidence to support anything.

Meg,

Apparently you didn't look hard enough! I am not saying, and I don't think that anyone else who has supported legalization is saying that there will be no more abuses. You are the only one making absolute statements. You've been shown evidence that legalization can improve things, you’ve been told of first hand knowledge of people who know former prostitutes who would laugh in our face (if I have the quote right) but you brush all of this off because it's contrary to your agenda.

Here are some more links directly dealing with and quoting the desires of the people involved. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13863047/ tell me JUST exactly where else could these workers protest like this for their rights where prostitution is illegal. And IF you think that the rights they have are not enough, or they are not asking for enough, you can put your money where your mouth is. Pick up a picket sign and advocate FOR them! Because THAT would be the real feminist stand - that women should have the right to WHAT ever they chose and be respected for it, instead of the sexually represt victorian/xian puritan agenda woo agenda you seem to be pushing.

Nevada brothels often hire women to work for just weeks at a time, require prostitutes to live on the premises and mandate costly STD tests too frequently, she said.
"Most sex workers don't want to work in those restrictive conditions," she said.

NOTE that IT’S the sex workers who are complaining that the STD testing is TOOO frequent!!!!! http://www.desireealliance.org/Vegas Sex Workers Demand Rights, Respect.htm. Now I don't necessarily agree with this! BUT it clearly shows that they are empowered ENOUGH to standup in a public forum complain and state their grievances and advocate for themselves WHERE It's legal!

But at this point I am fairly sure that you will just brush this off as some brainwashed abused women who have been beat down by the "man" and are too stupid and weak to know better.
I am guessing it's because it simply doesn't support your feminist agenda to admit that some women of their free will are willing to do this. The saddest part is while you wax eloquent about these horrors you turn a blind eye to all the other, far more damaging ways that women on a daily basis prostitute themselves and perpetuate the negative stereotypes – clue divorce court and orange county wives, Average Joe (I think that’s the right name for the TV show where 12 women try to figure out how to get the millionaire to marry them by GUESS WHAT, and that got some of the highest ratings by women)
Anyway, have fun.

 

[meg]

Magyar, why don't you get off your high horse for minute and read my posts again.

Apparently you didn't look hard enough! I am not saying, and I don't think that anyone else who has supported legalization is saying that there will be no more abuses. You are the only one making absolute statements. You've been shown evidence that legalization can improve things, you’ve been told of first hand knowledge of people who know former prostitutes who would laugh in our face (if I have the quote right) but you brush all of this off because it's contrary to your agenda.

Let's see, I've made several links to Department of Justice papers, news journals, and research works that say legalization of prostitution contributes to the problem of human trafficking, but they don't mean anything. Atheist claims he has some prostitute "friends" who say they like it, and you say "there's proof it works!". (BTW - that's not "firsthand knowledge")

Here are some more links directly dealing with and quoting the desires of the people involved. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13863047/ tell me JUST exactly where else could these workers protest like this for their rights where prostitution is illegal.

Well, if they're protesting in Las Vegas city limits, they're protesting where its illegal. What's your point?

Let's look at what these advocates for sex workers say in the one story you posted:

"Are they protecting and empowering women? Are they making our communities safer?” said Kate Hausbeck, a University of Nevada, Las Vegas sociology professor and advocate. “Are they improving the health, safety and well-being of prostitutes?

These are the same questions I have been asking. Has legalization done anything to empower women? Is it improving the health, safety and well being of the prostitutes?

But the nation’s only legal bordellos aren't a model for advocates, said Priscilla Alexander, a 67-year-old activist with COYOTE, a sex workers’ rights organization.

Thanks magyar. Kosei, there you go. From the horse's mouth. Nevada's legal bordellos are not the model for advocates who care about sex workers' rights.

And PUH LEEZ. The day I need you to tell me what a proper feminist attitude should be, I'll be sure to ask you. Get off your high horse already, will ya? I have not said one "sexually represt [sic] victorian/xian puritan agenda woo agenda" thing. What I have said is that legalization of prostitution by itself does nothing to improve the conditions of sex workers. What I have said is that places that have legalized prostitution found an increase in human trafficking for sexual exploitation, not the decrease that was promised.

NOTE that IT’S the sex workers who are complaining that the STD testing is TOOO frequent!!!!!

Yup. I do note that. I think that says something to validate my point that testing of sex workers is not for the benefit of the sex workers, but for the benefit of the customers.

Now I don't necessarily agree with this! BUT it clearly shows that they are empowered ENOUGH to standup in a public forum complain and state their grievances and advocate for themselves WHERE It's legal!

Again, no it doesn't. Prostitution is not legal where they were protesting, - at the Las Vegas courthouse. It is only legal in counties in Nevada with populations under 400,000. So being legal is not what empowered these people.

I am guessing it's because it simply doesn't support your feminist agenda to admit that some women of their free will are willing to do this. The saddest part is while you wax eloquent about these horrors you turn a blind eye to all the other, far more damaging ways that women on a daily basis prostitute themselves and perpetuate the negative stereotypes – clue divorce court and orange county wives, Average Joe (I think that’s the right name for the TV show where 12 women try to figure out how to get the millionaire to marry them by GUESS WHAT, and that got some of the highest ratings by women)

[sarcasm]Yeah, you're right. Who gives a crap about women being abused and coerced into prostitution in real life? The important thing is that a few women might actually want to screw for money! Their rights are way more important. And it's so true that the most damaging and saddest thing in all of this is that actresses perpetuate negative stereotypes about women on tv. Thanks for straightening me out about what real feminists should care about.[/sarcasm]

Get a grip.

 

[The Atheist]

No, i do not deny that prostitution dates back thousands of years. But, i would not be so confident as to claim it is "the oldest profession." I believe slavery is the oldest "profession."

Oldest, second oldest, I'm not going to argue. The point is that it isn't something you can sweep under the mat. The obvious and clear difference between hooking and slaving is that the hooker chooses to do it. Stockholm Syndrome says that slaves born into slavery might want to stay there, but I don't see too many people offering to become slaves anywhere nowadays.

And, I do not believe a civil war would be necessary to stop prostitution. Simply education and awareness.

And I think you're dreaming, but then again, I'm first and foremost, a realist. I leave fantasies for the devout.

Do you honestly believe there would be a 'sex industry' if all men withdrew their demand for it?

And do honestly think that's ever going to happen?

Not long ago, very few people would have imagined such a concept as equal rights & the idea of an African-American or a woman running for president. They would have been just as quickly brushed off and accused of unrealistic idealism.

Thanks for quoting those things, because it's quite obvious that women and coloured people wanted equal rights and were prepared to fight for it. You're fighting a battle you haven't been asked to join.

No, you did not say "in my experience."
You boldly stated, "Most of the women against prostitution are also pro-lifers!"

All my fault, I was posting quickly and thinking of the opposite of "anti-abortion". I've already pointed that out to Meg. For some reason I was trying to avoid "pro-abortion", shocking cock-up. No matter, all explained now.

Glad to see I had you pegged right the first time though.

Again, I find it simply mind-boggling that you'd fight to allow a woman to have an abortion on the basis that it's her body and her right, but when it's her body and sex, she has no rights.

Well, i am happy to hear your prostitute friends are/were financially successful, although you somehow failed to mention anything about their level of happiness or sense of fulfillment with their occupation (or past occupation).

Now you're back in fantasyland again. Ask a street cleaner, a hospital maid or a labourer about their sense of fulfilment with their occupation.

Unfortunately there are far more sad stories than happy ones, and far too many prostitutes are harmed than not.

Sure there are. Please explain how you're going to make prostitution go away then.

I am quite sure that most of us who are pro-abortion are referring to abortions prior to the term of 8 months ("close to term").

Ok, but Meg didn't have that view, nor do lots of others on this forum.

Atheist, a website seeking to improve conditions for sex workers in New Zealand is not evidence that New Zealand's prostitution industry is without problems.

I'm not claiming it's without problems, I've said from the start that the way to lessen the risks for women is to have legal prostitution with appropriate agencies enforcing the laws. Every single problem that's been quoted so far in places where prostitution is legal has come about through either poorly written laws or poor enforcement. Thanks to NZ being almost corruption-free at the political level and with a very low-level of police corruption, I'm hopeful that we can show the rest of the world that women can be protected by legislation.

Given the arrests and convictions for illegal activities, I'd like to think thatbhope isn't misplaced. Time will tell.