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Fiona said:
Well if the problem is private banks do they want to nationalise them? I doubt that because the inclusion of opposition to income tax suggests they are quite right wing? How do such people think we should provide public services?
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Ron Paul has pointed out that there was no federal income tax in America before a certain date (late 1800's early 1900's). Yet, infrastructure existed. Income tax is just one of many taxes. Remember, a lot of taxes are hidden, meaning you and/or other people are paying them when you buy things (gas for example).

The claim is that income tax goes soley to pay the interest for the loaning of printed money to the U.S. ie, the value of a dollar has interest on it, to be paid to "rich bankers" who controls/owns the system that prints money "out of thin air". Apparently it is a big scam and everyone has been duped. In a sense, Americans are "slaves" without even knowing it according to the claim.

I'm Canadian so I'm happy to pay taxes because I get free health care and other nice social benefits. I really haven't looked into the Canadian system. Do any Canadians know if Canadians are "slaves" too?
 
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Corsair 115 said:
I'd argue that's a misuse of the term "slave."
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You could most likely make a good case.

However, you made me instantly think about the saying, "we're slaves to money" or something to that effect. If the claim in OP is true, there is a group of people that directly gains from the work/money exchange that takes place (taxed on income from labour). Your labour (your own personal good/service) is taxed, and thus, is not fully your own if you need to use the monetary system for exchange. Paying taxes is needed and is done via many other avenues. For example I smoke, so I pay a lot of taxes when I buy 10$ packages of smokes everyday.

Now, making money costs money so even that has to be paid for. That is fine, but should private individuals be making continuous profit from this? It seems they are at the top of the pecking order to me. If we choose to use money and exchange our labour for it, we are instantly giving up a part of its value. And if the claim is true, all of it (income tax) is being paid for us to use the very money we exchange our labour for. That means you don't own your own money and thus, your own labour (if you exchange it for money). Wouldn't that make us slaves to a certain degree?
 
You could move into the woods you know and be beholden to no one. Civilization has its costs. Also, stop paying $10 a pack, you're getting ripped off.
 
applecorped said:
You could move into the woods you know and be beholden to no one. Civilization has its costs. Also, stop paying $10 a pack, you're getting ripped off.
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We pay for civilization, with money, and that is fine. The point is that Americans pay a lot of money just to use money. That means other people get rich when their money is used and if the claim is true, all income tax goes directly to pay for the money. If you haven't noticed, that would be a lot of money

I think a good solution would be to make the profits completely public. Now one could argue that current profits are already being used in society and thus, everyone benefits from the use of money anyway. But one would could point out that certain individuals (rich bankers) get to decide where that money is spent, and thus, have the power to manipulate society.
 
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Sizzler said:
Income tax is just one of many taxes. Remember, a lot of taxes are hidden, meaning you and/or other people are paying them when you buy things (gas for example).
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Which to me sounds like a good reason to support an income tax over other types of taxes. At least then, you know exactly how much you're getting screwed. I get a piece of paper every year that tells me that!



Sizzler said:
I'm Canadian so I'm happy to pay taxes because I get free health care and other nice social benefits. I really haven't looked into the Canadian system. Do any Canadians know if Canadians are "slaves" too?
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There are people here in Canada that make almost the exact same arguments as the US tax protesters, which is amusing when you consider how different our history and legislative process is. Of course, their arguments have just about the same merit as the US versions as well.
 
Horatius said:
Which to me sounds like a good reason to support an income tax over other types of taxes. At least then, you know exactly how much you're getting screwed. I get a piece of paper every year that tells me that!
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Yes that would be a good idea. It would be scary to see what the real amount of taxes actually are if all hidden taxes were somehow tallied throughout the year. Imagine how much taxes I pay extra to just be a smoker (each package bought is taxed), driver (taxes in gas purchase), and consumer (gst/pst). Add that and all the others to income tax and one may have a heart attack.


Horatius said:
There are people here in Canada that make almost the exact same arguments as the US tax protesters, which is amusing when you consider how different our history and legislative process is. Of course, their arguments have just about the same merit as the US versions as well.
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If the claim is true, and all income tax in America pay for the use of money, I would be furious, if I were American.

Where have they screwed up?

Is the claim just untrue? How much of their income tax is used to pay for money then?
 
Sizzler said:
... and if the claim is true, all income tax goes directly to pay for the money.
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From Wikipedia:

In 2003 $318 billion was spent on interest payments servicing the debt, out of a total tax revenue of $1,952 billion
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From a chart on this page, individual income taxes in 2003 were about $500 billion, which was close to the lowest point in a brief downturn in that tax revenue.

So, while it looks like a lot of income tax goes to debt servicing, it's not all. And, when you consider that most tax money just goes into a general fund, it's kind of silly to single out this one source as being dedicated to debt servicing. It's just as valid to say all your cigarette taxes go to pay interest to rich bankers.
 
I'm just wondering about the participation of other countries in this protest.

* Their claim is that taxation and the Federal Reserve are illegal in the U.S.; but even if one accepts that claim, that doesn't mean that similar systems in other countries are illegal.

* Their claim is that taxation is used only to pay off "interest payments servicing the debt" in the U.S.; but I know for a fact that, for example, Canadian income taxes are also used to pay for things such as health insurance, welfare benefits, etc. I don't know many Canadians who want to see those things disappear.

* I fail entirely to see how withdrawing my money from a Canadian bank will have any impact whatsoever on the U.S. Federal Reserve...perhaps someone could explain it to me?

Having said all of this...obviously, the people supporting this idea are clueless morons. And the U.S. does not have a monopoly on clueless morons (although the American versions seems to be more aggressive in their idiocy). So I would not be surprised to see at least a few individuals in other countries doing this. Pretty much the same people who send money to that kind individual in Nigeria who wants to send them fifteen million dollars.
 
I'm Canadian so I'm happy to pay taxes because I get free health care and other nice social benefits. I really haven't looked into the Canadian system. Do any Canadians know if Canadians are "slaves" too?
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You must be outside of Ontario to say something like this. Folks like me who are trapped in this province love getting screwed over by taxes like an 8-year old in a Catholic Summer camp.
 
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Sizzler said:
It would be scary to see what the real amount of taxes actually are if all hidden taxes were somehow tallied throughout the year. Imagine how much taxes I pay extra to just be a smoker (each package bought is taxed), driver (taxes in gas purchase), and consumer (gst/pst).
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The GST and PST aren't hidden taxes, at least not in Ontario. Buy something and the amount you paid to cover the GST and PST are shown right on the receipt.

MarkyX said:
You must be outside of Ontario to say something like this. Folks like me who are trapped in this province love getting screwed over by taxes like an 8-year old in a Catholic Summer camp.
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If I recall correctly, it's worse in Quebec.
 
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Corsair 115 said:
The GST and PST aren't hidden taxes, at least not in Ontario. Buy something and the amount you paid to cover the GST and PST are shown right on the receipt.
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They're not hidden per se, but they're distributed throughout the year in small lots, so most people have no real feel for how much they are taxed each year on that basis. Imagine the outcry if you were to receive a bill at the end of the year for all your sales tax in one lump sum, so you knew exactly how much you were paying.
 
Horatius said:
They're not hidden per se, but they're distributed throughout the year in small lots, so most people have no real feel for how much they are taxed each year on that basis. Imagine the outcry if you were to receive a bill at the end of the year for all your sales tax in one lump sum, so you knew exactly how much you were paying.
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Well, it's not that hard for someone to keep track of it if they wanted to. Keep your reciepts and tally up the tax paid as you go. You could also estimate it based on your total expenses for the year.

In any case, folks can also apply for the federal GST rebate when they file their tax return.

As a general note, I will observe that while folks may complain about their taxes, they don't seem to mind all the deductions and credits available via the tax system. And they certainly don't mind RRSPs.
 
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