This is the Government that You Want to Run Health-care?

Waiting lists are a valid criticism of a public system. But let's keep it real here. Jerome is trying to characterize waiting lists as something we all (in countries with universal systems) have to do to get "health care". Not true at all. You may get put on a waiting list if you need a certain species of elective surgery or some particular service such as an MRI in certain jurisdictions. That's it. It sucks for those on the lists, and it is a genuine systemic problem, but it is not the experience of the average person - at least not in my country (Canada).

Anecdote time:

My mother and grandmother both suffered through extended (decades) and fatal battles with breast cancer. At no time did they ever have to wait for any care, and that care was always of the highest calibre - including experimental (at the time) treatments such as bone marrow transplants. My father-in-law is currently suffering all of the horrors of diabetes, including kidney failure, heart failure, amputations, etc. He is hospitalized right now. He has never had to wait for anything and has always received the best care without having to fight for it.

Also, Jerome, you linked to a study about NHS wait times that didn't conclude quite what you were claiming:

"In most instances, substantial numbers of patients waiting unacceptably long periods for elective surgery were limited to a small number of hospitals. Little and inconsistent support was found for associations of prolonged waiting with markers of capacity, independent sector activity, or need in the surgical specialties examined."
 
JEROME DA GNOME said:
I get to just make an appointment at my convenience. Sorry that you have to wait weeks to get health-care.
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You do not have to wait weeks for healthcare if you need emergency treatment. It's not perfect, but would I trade for a system where a minor accident might bankrupt me?

You tell me - how would I be better off under your magical system? How much would I need to pay, per month, to guarantee me the level of care I get, free at the point of use, under the NHS?

How much for fully comp insurance with no deductible that covers everything from accident and emergency to GP services to long-term illness care, organ transplants, outpatient treatment, subsidised and/or free drugs... the list goes on.

Exactly how much would such a policy cost me in "the market"?
 
D'rok said:
"In most instances, substantial numbers of patients waiting unacceptably long periods for elective surgery were limited to a small number of hospitals. Little and inconsistent support was found for associations of prolonged waiting with markers of capacity, independent sector activity, or need in the surgical specialties examined."
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This cherry-picked statement is attempting to turn a sows ear into silk purse.

The study concluded that 6 month waiting periods were not that bad!
 
volatile said:
You do not have to wait weeks for healthcare if you need emergency treatment. It's not perfect, but would I trade for a system where a minor accident might bankrupt me?
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Minor accidents do not bankrupt anyone in America. You are presenting untruth in your arguments again.

You tell me - how would I be better off under your magical system? How much would I need to pay, per month, to guarantee me the level of care I get, free at the point of use, under the NHS?
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Let us start from where you are then move to the magic system.

How much of your labor is currently payed to government?
 
JEROME DA GNOME said:
You are not following your own thoughts.

What you have written above if different than what you have written before to attempt to make your points.
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Errm. Not at all.

Every single source I have listed disagrees with your out-of-thin-air $550 billion figure, and places it in the trillions. Every single one. Every single source, governmental or independent, places the US per capita spending on healthcare at around the $6,000 mark. Plus, you have to spend more than that out of your own pocket for insurance, making the figures even more skewed in our direction.

Is libertarianism a symptom or a cause of the inability to read?


If you dispute the $6,000 per year figure, show your working.
 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/03/AR2005110301143.html

"Americans pay more when they get sick than people in other Western nations and get more confused, error-prone treatment, according to the largest survey to compare U.S. health care with other nations.The survey of nearly 7,000 sick adults in the United States, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Britain and Germany found Americans were the most likely to pay at least $1,000 in out-of-pocket expenses. More than half went without needed care because of cost and more than one-third endured mistakes and disorganized care when they did get treated."
 
JEROME DA GNOME said:
This cherry-picked statement is attempting to turn a sows ear into silk purse.

The study concluded that 6 month waiting periods were not that bad!
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That isn't a cherry-picked statement, that is the entire text of the conclusion of the abstract of the study you linked to.

It specifically says that 6 month waiting periods are "unacceptably long", but notes that the problem is local, not national. It also says the problem is not capacity, private sector activity, or need. In other words, it is an efficiency problem.

Try again.
 
D'rok said:
That isn't a cherry-picked statement, that is the entire text of the conclusion of the abstract of the study you linked to.

It specifically says that 6 month waiting periods are "unacceptably long", but notes that the problem is local, not national. It also says the problem is not capacity, private sector activity, or need. In other words, it is an efficiency problem.

Try again.
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Ohh, so there are 6 month waiting periods.

Your presentation was false.
 
JEROME DA GNOME said:
Ohh, so there are 6 month waiting periods.

Your presentation was false.
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What are you on about? Where did I claim that 6 month waiting periods never happen in the NHS system?

Good grief Jerome. I think you are trying to juggle too many conversations concurrently.
 
volatile said:
Errm. Not at all.

Every single source I have listed disagrees with your out-of-thin-air $550 billion figure, and places it in the trillions. Every single one. Every single source, governmental or independent, places the US per capita spending on healthcare at around the $6,000 mark. Plus, you have to spend more than that out of your own pocket for insurance, making the figures even more skewed in our direction.

Is libertarianism a symptom or a cause of the inability to read?


If you dispute the $6,000 per year figure, show your working.
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You have now changed what the $6000 figure represents.

Do you not read your own posts before beginning another?
 
JEROME DA GNOME said:
You have now changed what the $6000 figure represents.

Do you not read your own posts before beginning another?
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Excuse me, I most certainly have not.

You can go read the sources for my numbers. It says right there what they represent. Total per capita healthcare spending in the US, including Medicare and Medicaid, is $6,000. That is $6,000 taken from your tax bill, covering 44% of your countries' health needs.

Total per capita healthcare spending in the UK is $2,000 from my tax bill, covering 86% of mine.

It is laughable that you maintain otherwise, as every single study proves you wrong.
 
D'rok said:
What are you on about? Where did I claim that 6 month waiting periods never happen in the NHS system?

Good grief Jerome. I think you are trying to juggle too many conversations concurrently.
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This was my claim contained within a question: "How are those 6 month lines for health-care working out for you?"

You responded with this: "Jerome, you linked to a study about NHS wait times that didn't conclude quite what you were claiming", and a quote from the study which hides that fact that there are 6 month lines for health-care.
 
volatile said:
Excuse me, I most certainly have not.

You can go read the sources for my numbers. It says right there what they represent. Total per capita healthcare spending in the US, including Medicare and Medicaid, is $6,000. That is $6,000 taken from your tax bill, covering 44% of your countries' health needs.

Total per capita healthcare spending in the UK is $2,000 from my tax bill, covering 86% of mine.

It is laughable that you maintain otherwise, as every single study proves you wrong.
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You are a lier.

Are these not your words?

"Your numbers do not add up, because on top of whatever you pay in premiums, you also pay "an average of $5,440 for each person in the United States" for Medicaid."
 
"The frequent claim that the United States pays high medical prices to avoid long waiting lists for care also fails to hold up in the face of the evidence: there are long waiting lists for elective surgery in some non-US systems, but not all, and the procedures for which these waiting lists exist account for only 3 percent of US health care spending" http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18802
 
JEROME DA GNOME said:
volatile said:
You have already been shown that this is not the case.

" More than 18,000 adults in the USA die each year because they are uninsured and can't get proper health care, researchers report in a landmark study released Tuesday."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/healthcare/2002-05-22-insurance-deaths.htm

Further: Kev, quoted in this thread but posting in another, said that premiums in his area were $1,500 per MONTH, and this is for a level of care less comprehensive than the NHS provides, and includes a "deductible". Do you dispute these figures?

How much do you pay, per month, and what level of care can you expect to receive?
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Well if USA Today printed it it must be true!!!

I asked you for the study and you refuse to provide it.
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I must admit it is unlike the evidence that JdG presents:

JEROME DA GNOME said:
Originally Posted by jimbob
By what mechanism would the cost be reduced?
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The market.
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Is the argument more advanced than quixotecoyote's version?

quixotecoyote said:
:heartbeat::fairy::pixie2The free market!:pixie2 :fairy::heartbeat:
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JEROME DA GNOME said:
You are a lier.

Are these not your words?

"Your numbers do not add up, because on top of whatever you pay in premiums, you also pay "an average of $5,440 for each person in the United States" for Medicaid."
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I should have said "including for Medicaid", you are correct. Had you actually followed the link, this would have been clear. Also, this does not invalidate my point in any way whatsoever.

Your tax burden for healthcare: $6,000
My tax burden for healthcare: $2,000

Amount I need to spend on top of this for comprehensive level healthcare: Negligible
Amount you need to spend on top of this (as per Kev's figures, the only ones given despite repeated asking): $2,000 per month (per family?).

You're getting screwed by your dogma. Doesn't it hurt?
 
JEROME DA GNOME said:
This was my claim contained within a question: "How are those 6 month lines for health-care working out for you?"

You responded with this: "Jerome, you linked to a study about NHS wait times that didn't conclude quite what you were claiming", and a quote from the study which hides that fact that there are 6 month lines for health-care.
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And the study did not conclude quite what you are claiming. The study concludes that 6 month wait times are localized problems for particular services. In other words, it is unlikely that volatile, jimbob, or any other citizen of the UK has to deal with them unless they live in those particular locations. The same goes for Canada, although the problem is very serious here in some locations. (In particular, across the Ottawa river from me in the Outaouais region of Quebec, there is a crisis.)

You will have more credibility of you don't attempt to mis-characterize the truth of life in a universal care system.

ETA: And bloody hell! The quote is the conclusion of the study. It does not hide the facts of 6 month waiting lists; they are the core subject of the conclusion!
 
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