[Merged]All religions are idiocy

[Rufo]

It is not what you are taught but what information you are made aware of.

Information can be true or false. It is what you are taught, along with your own discoveries, that effects which information you trust.

You are not misunderstanding. To believe in a religion is idiotic, but there may be mitigating circumstances which explain why you do.

If I am not misunderstanding, then you do not actually believe that all religious are idiots. That's a relief, because it means you are not as unreasonable as I originally thought.

In what way?

Pretty simple, really - it's the old you can't prove a negative. No one will open a book and find neat, logical evidence for the nonexistance of God. Stopping to believe in God (or rather, stopping to think you know God exists, which is a step in that direction) is a process of finding that the evidence you thought you had is questionable. It takes more time, effort and motivation.

All of its achievements, if possible.

No one has studied all the achievments of the scientific method. I agree that it's better to know as much as possible, but you are being too vague in what information you think is necessary.

If they have intelligence and knowledge, this is even more damning. They have, against better knowledge, chosen to be religious. They are idiots beyond belief.

This puzzles me a bit - are you using Cuddles' definition of idiot as something you can be in some areas and not in others? If so, aren't most people idiots in some way? If not, why does this specific issue make them idiots, even though they had proven their intellectual ability through other means?

Because it hopeless and meaningless. You might as well as me to really accept that leperchauns abounded. It's impossible.

You are missing my point. I'm not asking you to accept that God exists - the theological equalivent of what you suggest - but to try to understand the people who do believe in God (or leprechauns, if that's another one of your problems ) by trying to think like them. Imagining what they think like. Imagining what made them think like that. Of course it's not possible to do it perfectly, especially since they think in different ways, but I'm asking you to try. It's not impossible for me, so why would it be for you?

Still mitigating circumstances. Still makes them at most ignorant.

So those who had a strong religious upbringing (and were thus conditioned to believe that all arguments against God were deceptive) are not idiots? That accounts for quite a few of the religious in the world, as well as quite a few of the religious who have ever existed.

It is!

And that's the best kind of debates!

No, no, it's idiocy to believe in a "higher power" that's impotent.
And aren't they all?

Some of them have the power to make their believers talk to them, wear funny hats, devote their lives to charity, or kill each other. In fact, quite a lot of them have.

Why? Do all beliefs deserve equal recognition, respect, and adherence from everyone?

Do you feel there are any idiotic beliefs? If so, which ones? If those, how do you feel about those who hold them?

Putting down others who you don't know for their beliefs with a broad, sweeping generalization is not very wise or tactful. There is a big difference between that and lacking respect for certain beliefs and certain people who hold them.

 

[DARK LORD XENU]

No, no, it's idiocy to believe in a "higher power" that's impotent.
And aren't they all?



Why? Do all beliefs deserve equal recognition, respect, and adherence from everyone?

Do you feel there are any idiotic beliefs? If so, which ones? If those, how do you feel about those who hold them?

Well fair enough if you disagree with me, and yes in my opinion all religions deserve equal respect to some point at least.

BUT to say that someone is an idiot just for believing in God to me is idiotic just because you do not share their beliefs, and just because I don't share your beliefs doesn't mean I think your an idiot I just disagree with you.

But I say if atheism works for you good luck to you!

 

[DanishDynamite]

I must ask what's so idiotic about believing in a higher power?

Because there is no reason at all to suspect this is the case. It is as insane as believing that my gym socks secretly control the White House. It is nonsense.

To me it is far more idiotic to go about putting others down for there beliefs!

I'm not putting them down. Just explaining to them that it is idiotic to be a believer.

 

[DanishDynamite]

I nearly choked on a mouthful of food when I read this. If you think "debating" is calling people and their beliefs idiotic and ignorant, you are sadly mistaken. Debating calls for civility as a first principle.

It is idiotic. I'm done phrasing it in more PC terms.

 

[DanishDynamite]

Hmmm, you started a thread saying that all religions are idiocy in a skeptics forum. It seems to me that if you wanted a response from believers telling you why you are wrong, you would have started it in a religious forum.

My experience is that you instantly get banned from such forums.

If a thread in a religious forum was titled "Why skepticism is idiocy" and didn't get much defense from skeptics, would that be an indication that skeptics have no balls?

No, just that there either weren't any skeptics around or that they knew they would get banned in a split second.

What comes across to me is that you are not actually interested in what religious believers might have to say in their own defense. If you were, you would have posted in a more appropriate forum with a less confrontational title.

Show me an appropriate forum, and I'll post it there.

 

[DanishDynamite]

The term I once learned is "pulling your leg." Given your OP, I figured I'd reply in kind. I don't do Bingo on Wednesday nights. I don't expect I ever will. And as for chicks digging it, well, that's a story for another time, if you and I ever share that beer in person.

DR

Got it!

(And I do hope we get to share that beer!)

 

[A Christian Sceptic]

Because there is no reason at all to suspect this is the case.

Reason (and your ability to) is a reason to suspect there is more.



Of course - seeing a ghost may give you an additional reason to suspect,

Or seeing a miracle may give you a reason to suspect,

Or being awed by the unverse may give you reason to suspect,

Or experiencing unconditional love may give you reason to suspect,

Or enjoying your hobby may give you reason to suspect,

Or __________ may give you reason to suspect,

Or ...

 

[DanishDynamite]

So they are all equally idiotic based on their belief in the "supernatural"?

"Supernatural" is just a point of view. To believe in the "supernatural" is to believe in the reality of things beyond one's conception of what constitutes "natural" law. If isolated hunter-gatherers are exposed for the first time to cutting-edge modern technology they would consider such artifacts supernatural by their understanding of the world. If we were exposed to phenomenon or technology based on principles unknown to us we to could consider them supernatural as well. But ofcourse such things would be natural in the sense that they have basic underlying rules that govern them and can -- in principle -- be understood. To claim that a group of people are "idiots" because of their belief in the "supernatural" is extremely presumptuous.

No it isn't. There are currently no unexplained phenomena which are not thought to be crackable by scientific investigation.

If Danish wants some contrary views I think there are more than enough people on these forums who are willing to provide them.

I certainly hope so.

 

[DanishDynamite]

Why take a clear and unambiguous statement and try to make it unclear and ambiguous? She said what she was trying to say:



There is no reason to ask "are you saying?" She said what she was saying.

This type of thread is not very useful in trying to figure out why people believe what they believe.

Sorry for trying to clarify why she wrote as she did.

 

[DanishDynamite]

Information can be true or false. It is what you are taught, along with your own discoveries, that effects which information you trust.

How odd then, that I was never taught skepticism and yet was effectively a skeptic since age 14.

If I am not misunderstanding, then you do not actually believe that all religious are idiots. That's a relief, because it means you are not as unreasonable as I originally thought.

It is idiotic to be religious. But as I've said several times now, ignorance is a mitigating circumstance.

Pretty simple, really - it's the old you can't prove a negative. No one will open a book and find neat, logical evidence for the nonexistance of God. Stopping to believe in God (or rather, stopping to think you know God exists, which is a step in that direction) is a process of finding that the evidence you thought you had is questionable. It takes more time, effort and motivation.

No one will open a book and find evidence that my gym socks don't control the White House. Or that my left ear isn't actually an alien able to camouflage to an unreal degree. Or...

No one has studied all the achievments of the scientific method. I agree that it's better to know as much as possible, but you are being too vague in what information you think is necessary.

The scietific method and its achievements. If you need to limit it, just take the first 10 or 100 examples.

This puzzles me a bit - are you using Cuddles' definition of idiot as something you can be in some areas and not in others? If so, aren't most people idiots in some way? If not, why does this specific issue make them idiots, even though they had proven their intellectual ability through other means?

Religious belief is idiotic. Anyone, who against knowledge to the contrary, is still religious, is an idiot.

You are missing my point. I'm not asking you to accept that God exists - the theological equalivent of what you suggest - but to try to understand the people who do believe in God (or leprechauns, if that's another one of your problems ) by trying to think like them. Imagining what they think like. Imagining what made them think like that. Of course it's not possible to do it perfectly, especially since they think in different ways, but I'm asking you to try. It's not impossible for me, so why would it be for you?

Because I don't know how to think as anyone else than myself. And neither do you.

So those who had a strong religious upbringing (and were thus conditioned to believe that all arguments against God were deceptive) are not idiots? That accounts for quite a few of the religious in the world, as well as quite a few of the religious who have ever existed.

No, that is not mitigating enough. It is only if they had no possibilty of learning otherwise that they are just ignorant.

And that's the best kind of debates!

Certainly!

 

[humber]

All religious workers beg for their 'supper'. All of them make their followers pay for their upkeep.
$1000 suits, free cars, free housing, free travel. What god would let this happen and then have his/her followers pay for their leaders to have their feet washed with a golden bowl. Billions of dollars being used every year to keep a select few living the life of Riley. All this while millions of followers starve?

Quite right. Even the anodyne halfway-house of Buddhism so appealing to many Westerners has this trait.
Shiny happy monks lineup outside Bangkok's temples awaiting their supper, so that they may return to solipsistic contemplation. A revolting ideology, in my view.

 

[DanishDynamite]

Reason (and your ability to) is a reason to suspect there is more.

In what sense?

Of course - seeing a ghost may give you an additional reason to suspect,

Why would you think so?

Or seeing a miracle may give you a reason to suspect,

Why would you think so?

Or being awed by the unverse may give you reason to suspect,

Or experiencing unconditional love may give you reason to suspect,

Or enjoying your hobby may give you reason to suspect,

Or __________ may give you reason to suspect,

Or ...

I experience all those things and see no reason to invent China tea sets orbiting Alpha Centaury. Do you feel such need?

 

[DARK LORD XENU]

Because there is no reason at all to suspect this is the case. It is as insane as believing that my gym socks secretly control the White House. It is nonsense.
I'm not putting them down. Just explaining to them that it is idiotic to be a believer.

I don't think any one is here to argue as to weather or not your socks run the white house! in fact a pair of socks might do better than g.w.bush.

Also what were you trying to say about people who believe in God?

 

[DARK LORD XENU]

If you are religious, you are an idiot. My understanding of Buddishm is that it isn't a religion, though. Perhaps I'm wrong?

Do you believe in any form of God?

Also IF you were not trying to say those of us that have a religious belief DD please explain this post of yours mate.

 

[humber]

In what sense?

Why would you think so?

Why would you think so?

I experience all those things and see no reason to invent China tea sets orbiting Alpha Centaury. Do you feel such need?

I think religion is bunk, and want to see the end of it, but your last remark is really the point. People do want to believe.
It's idiocy, but then again, humans are not that smart. Perhaps in wanting to see an end to such idiocy, there is a fundamental flaw of expectation.

If you look at the world and are "awestruck" isn't that simply a reaction to your ignorance of it? The more you know, the smaller the surprise.

Recently, I talked to a creationist. The subject was Noah's ark. In answer to one of my more penetrating questions came "in those days, lions were vegetarians". What to do? Ridicule or smile? I chose the latter, but I do hold contempt for those who should know better.

 

[DanishDynamite]

I don't think any one is here to argue as to weather or not your socks run the white house! in fact a pair of socks might do better than g.w.bush.

Also what were you trying to say about people who believe in God?

That they are idiotic for doing so. I thought I mentioned this somewhere in this thread?

 

[Macoy]

If I might beg a brief sideline, why did you change your avatar back?

 

[DanishDynamite]

Also IF you were not trying to say those of us that have a religious belief DD please explain this post of yours mate.

Generally, if you are religious, you are an idiot for so being. It may however be possible that you are just ignorant.

Read the thread, bozo.

Keep it civil, please.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: prewitt81

 

[A Christian Sceptic]

I experience all those things and see no reason to invent China tea sets orbiting Alpha Centaury. Do you feel such need?

Who's talking about inventing things - especially tea cups? I never mentioned anything like that. I thought you were talking about "reasons to suspect". Aren't those reasons I listed what many people consider "reasons to suspect"?

 

[DanishDynamite]

I think religion is bunk, and want to see the end of it, but your last remark is really the point. People do want to believe.
It's idiocy, but then again, humans are not that smart. Perhaps in wanting to see an end to such idiocy, there is a fundamental flaw of expectation.

If you look at the world and are "awestruck" isn't that simply a reaction to your ignorance of it? The more you know, the smaller the surprise.

Recently, I talked to a creationist. The subject was Noah's ark. In answer to one of my more penetrating questions came "in those days, lions were vegetarians". What to do? Ridicule or smile? I chose the latter, but I do hold contempt for those who should know better.

I too suspect that the degree that religion is widespread means there is more to it than just a bad idea gone wrong. I seem to recall some research which indicated that there possibly was a "god" center in some peoples brains. I look forward to more research in this area.