[Merged]All religions are idiocy

thaiboxerken said:
I don't agree. DD's assertion is that the beliefs themselves are idiotic, and I agree, they are. His flawed premise, however, is the implied assertion that only idiots believe idiotic things. This is where I part with DD.

He seems to fail to realize that the most intelligent, rational people can be religious. He doesn't understand the fact that these same people don't apply their intelligence and reasoning to their religious beliefs (for the most part). It's this compartmentalization that has kept religion alive and well since the age of reason. For some reason, the religious think that logic and evidence doesn't apply to their religious beliefs. It's idiotic, yes, but that doesn't mean they are idiots. Just wrong.
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You may well agree with his assertion, but I'm not yet convinced he has established this as anything but opinion - obviously he's welcome to his opinions, but it looked like a claim to me.

I agree that once he has shown through evidence and reason that his assertion is correct, he must then show that it follows that being religious means you're an idiot.
 
sinclairmcevoy said:
I'll try to explain what I believe. Any idiot should be able to read it, since an idiot is writing it.
I believe in helping others.
I believe in being a good person.
I believe in the fact that the church I belong to does a great deal in both of these areas.
I believe in the Big Bang and evolution.
I believe in God.
I believe in respecting the beliefs and opinions of others.
I believe that to insult someone based solely on their beliefs is rude, arrogant, ignorant and uncalled for. Only idiots engage in such behaviour.
I believe that we all should be able to believe what we choose.
I believe that this is a great place for discussion of belief.
I believe that the OP is a reflection of the thread starter. Good luck to DD, you come across as a real compassionate, caring individual.
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Leaving out the god and church stuff, I'm down with that. I can't help thinling that without the god and church stuff you'd still hold all those other beliefs. But whatever, it's not an issue for me. I go by the person, not the belief.

Show me a person who's been made good by their religion, and I'll thank you and avoid them. To my mind, religions are made good by the good people in them, not vice versa.

(On reflection, I don't respect all beliefs and opinions. Some are so self-serving or downright disgusting as to be worth no respect at all. People that have chosen to adopt them are not worthy of respect.)
 
Egg said:
You may well agree with his assertion, but I'm not yet convinced he has established this as anything but opinion - obviously he's welcome to his opinions, but it looked like a claim to me.

I agree that once he has shown through evidence and reason that his assertion is correct, he must then show that it follows that being religious means you're an idiot.
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And once you show through evidence and reason that china sets do not orbit Alpha Centaury and pink Unicorns are not contiously created in my garage and oddly remain invisible to everyone, etc, then we can again take you seriously.
 
Beth said:
I think you have a rather narrow and biased view of religion. For example, I don't think the Jewish religion spends much effort trying to convert others.
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Right, in the case of judaism, they are biding their time until the rest of the world is dead. They are the "choosen people," after all.
 
Egg said:
You may well agree with his assertion, but I'm not yet convinced he has established this as anything but opinion - obviously he's welcome to his opinions, but it looked like a claim to me.
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You actually think someone would claim that a belief is idiotic as anything other than opinion? Do you ask people to support their assertion that chocolate is the best flavor on earth with evidence as well?
 
CapelDodger said:
(On reflection, I don't respect all beliefs and opinions. Some are so self-serving or downright disgusting as to be worth no respect at all. People that have chosen to adopt them are not worthy of respect.)
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Could you name one religion you respect?
 
DanishDynamite said:
No, I mean that if, despite knowledge to the contrary, you still believe in magic, you are an idiot.
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Is it really as simple as that? Is there really such a thing as 'knowledge of the contrary'? What is one supposed to know to be able to draw the right conclusions, from your perspective? If one has been taught not to believe in magic in the same dogmatic manner as many are taught to believe in it, is one as much of an idiot?

Those who have not had the possibility to be educated can be classed as simply ignorant.

Indeed. As I said there can be mitigating circumstances.

See above.

Not understood. It is idiotic to be religious. There may, however, be mitigating circumstances regarding why you believe such that you could be just ignorant.
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Thank you. :)

What I had a problem with, as stated my original post, was that you had made the statement "If you are religious, you are an idiot." Your answer here suggests a retraction of that generalization. If you do not believe that all religious are idiots, then you already agree with most of the point I was trying to get across. I hope this was a misunderstanding and that I'm not misunderstanding you now.

There is as much evidence for magic sky-daddies as there is for china tea-sets orbiting Alpha Centaury or unicorns in my garrage.
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And I never suggested otherwise. "What there is, is lack of evidence for them." I was just pointing out that nowhere in a book can you find evidence for magic sky-daddies not existing, but only evidence that alledged evidence for their existance it false. It may seem like a petty distiction, but it actually complicates the whole thing quite a bit.

The information they might need access to is .... drumroll....the scientific method and its achievements.
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First - the scientific method and what of its achievments? All of them? Keep in mind, they also need to study this information to put it to use.

And I repeat why previous question about whether display of extremely high intelligence and imagination in other areas could be considered as evidence that they are not idiots, even if they do believe in God with this information at hand.

Why should I try to think as a religious person? How is that even possible?
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Because you are curious how they think. Attempting to imagine you are them, utilizing your empathy, seems like a reasonable first effort to find out. It does not seem you have tried it.

Yes, I told you that if they had no access to libraries, that would make them just ignorant.
No, just ignorant.
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They could have access to libraries and the information, but have been conditioned into not studying it, or not to think of it as anything but lies or a form of deception. Still migrating circumstances? Still not idiots?

My pleasure.
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Then I hope it will be your pleasure to continue the debate. :)
 
I think I have to agree with DD. Maybe not to the point of throwing insults but surely intelligent people can see that religions are all nonsense. Even forgetting about the big sky fairy and what an absolute nonsense that is, people should see that it is a monstrous fraud.

All religious workers beg for their 'supper'. All of them make their followers pay for their upkeep.
$1000 suits, free cars, free housing, free travel. What god would let this happen and then have his/her followers pay for their leaders to have their feet washed with a golden bowl. Billions of dollars being used every year to keep a select few living the life of Riley. All this while millions of followers starve?

Religious institutions already make billions, yet check out how many of them take a percentage of the donations they receive for the poor and put it towards 'administration costs'. Ha, what a joke. Its the old, throw the money up in the air and what stays up is gods and what comes down is theirs.

Yet supposed intelligent people still insist on following this cr*p.

Show me a god that insists you keep him/her in your own thoughts, with no need to try and infect others, no need for huge extravagant edifices, no need for lazy beggars (priests, parsons etc) chasing our children, no requirement to bow down fity times a day, no need to wear stupid boxes or hats on your head, no need to wear an idiotic hairdo that has to be kept inside a cloth wrap and maybe, just maybe, I will think twice about him/her.

On second thoughts, no thanks, I've got an iq above room temperature.

;)
 
thaiboxerken said:
You actually think someone would claim that a belief is idiotic as anything other than opinion? Do you ask people to support their assertion that chocolate is the best flavor on earth with evidence as well?
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Absolutely! Everyone knows it's proven fact that strawberry is best :).
 
Rufo said:
Is it really as simple as that? Is there really such a thing as 'knowledge of the contrary'? What is one supposed to know to be able to draw the right conclusions, from your perspective? If one has been taught not to believe in magic in the same dogmatic manner as many are taught to believe in it, is one as much of an idiot?
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It is not what you are taught but what information you are made aware of.
Thank you. :)

What I had a problem with, as stated my original post, was that you had made the statement "If you are religious, you are an idiot." Your answer here suggests a retraction of that generalization. If you do not believe that all religious are idiots, then you already agree with most of the point I was trying to get across. I hope this was a misunderstanding and that I'm not misunderstanding you now.
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You are not misunderstanding. To believe in a religion is idiotic, but there may be mitigating circumstances which explain why you do.
And I never suggested otherwise. "What there is, is lack of evidence for them." I was just pointing out that nowhere in a book can you find evidence for magic sky-daddies not existing, but only evidence that alledged evidence for their existance it false. It may seem like a petty distiction, but it actually complicates the whole thing quite a bit.
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In what way?
First - the scientific method and what of its achievments? All of them? Keep in mind, they also need to study this information to put it to use.
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All of its achievements, if possible.
And I repeat why previous question about whether display of extremely high intelligence and imagination in other areas could be considered as evidence that they are not idiots, even if they do believe in God with this information at hand.
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If they have intelligence and knowledge, this is even more damning. They have, against better knowledge, chosen to be religious. They are idiots beyond belief.
Because you are curious how they think. Attempting to imagine you are them, utilizing your empathy, seems like a reasonable first effort to find out. It does not seem you have tried it.
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Because it hopeless and meaningless. You might as well as me to really accept that leperchauns abounded. It's impossible.
They could have access to libraries and the information, but have been conditioned into not studying it, or not to think of it as anything but lies or a form of deception. Still migrating circumstances? Still not idiots?
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Still mitigating circumstances. Still makes them at most ignorant.
Then I hope it will be your pleasure to continue the debate. :)
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It is! :)
 
DanishDynamite said:
And once you show through evidence and reason that china sets do not orbit Alpha Centaury and pink Unicorns are not contiously created in my garage and oddly remain invisible to everyone, etc, then we can again take you seriously.
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If I made a claim that they did not/were not, then I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect me to back it up.
 
Egg said:
If I made a claim that they did not/were not, then I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect me to back it up.
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It is unreasonable to expect a person to prove such a thing. How does one prove the non-existence of such absurdities? Negative claims that need to be proven are ones that contradict established facts, otherwise, they carry no burden of evidence.
 
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