Dark matter and Dark energy

Not understanding what gravitational forces rotate the galaxies we make-up a new idea called Dark matter.

Perhaps you shouldn't read YOUR opinion into other people's writings.

By your "logic", every theory in the history of science was "made-up" to explain things we couldn't otherwise understand.

You have presented no facts other than DARKMATTERDIDIT this is the same argument as GODDIDIT.

You didn't see the bullet cluster picture ?

The laughing dog will not save you.


Please, you are insisting; now with a poor attempt at ridicule, that Dark matter exists.

Do you have evidence or are you just going on faith?

I just love how some of the posters here think that they can shift the burden of proof and ask others for evidence when all they do is take an extreme skeptical stance.

You're just being childish.
 
I just love how some of the posters here think that they can shift the burden of proof and ask others for evidence when all they do is take an extreme skeptical stance.

You're just being childish.

You are claiming the burden of proof is on me to prove that something does not exist?

:mgbanghead
 
You are claiming the burden of proof is on me to prove that something does not exist?

There is massive evidence (both directly from the bullet cluster and indirectly from at least four independent sets of observations) that it does exist. If you think it doesn't, you have to explain all that evidence. So yes, the burden of proof is squarely on you.
 
This is the difference between a 1$ skeptic and the genuine item. It's not much different from armchair philosopher (who think solipsism is a tenable position) vs genuine ones (who know it's a useless position).
 
My additions are called "dark postings", you can't see them, but they are 10 times more massive than the observable postings, and influence the course of the conversations. We know this from observing the visible post elements. Something is causing them to move forward, when there isn't enough content in them to explain the motion. :D

:D
 
The part that just seems woo woo, is that "dark matter" doesn't act like matter. Forget the "fact" it doesn't emit, adsorb, or re-radiate any form of EM, it also doesn't attract either matter, or itself, nor does it form structures, or do anything that real matter does.

Ever here of neutrinos, pi-mesons or Yukawa particles.

Same deal, as well as gluons.

The bolded part seems to be ignoring the gravitational attraction of the hypothetical bugger.
 
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So, you are saying you think "dark matter" is attracted to and combines with ordinary matter? Is it still dark matter then? Does it form structures? Clouds, plasmas, asteroids, planets, stars, or what?

I'm not being funny, I think it is a fascinating concept.
 
So, you are saying you think "dark matter" is attracted to and combines with ordinary matter? Is it still dark matter then? Does it form structures? Clouds, plasmas, asteroids, planets, stars, or what?

I'm not being funny, I think it is a fascinating concept.
You said gas couldn't conduct nor could it glow. Again I ask you if Neon is a gas?
 
So, you are saying you think "dark matter" is attracted to and combines with ordinary matter? Is it still dark matter then? Does it form structures? Clouds, plasmas, asteroids, planets, stars, or what?

I'm not being funny, I think it is a fascinating concept.

Robinson, I'm getting the impression that you have no idea what "dark matter" means.
 
Haha, good question. I have him on ignore, but similar posters keep popping up and spouting nonsense.

Ha! I have him on ignore too!

I heard on the Starstuff podcast recently ...
Interesting, no?

Yes, thanks.

OK, so you tell me - how much does god weigh? What position is she in, and why does she like to curl up so snugly around all those galaxies? What's her temperature? Her density? When two galaxy clusters collide and pass through each other, does she stay behind or go along with them?

That is weird. Replacing dark matter with God doesn't change anything at all!
 
So, you are saying you think "dark matter" is attracted to and combines with ordinary matter? Is it still dark matter then? Does it form structures? Clouds, plasmas, asteroids, planets, stars, or what?

I'm not being funny, I think it is a fascinating concept.

That is a great question since it creates a gravitational field it should respond in like. The model would say that it interacts with ordinary matter. I don't know any answers other than that.
 
Robinson, I'm getting the impression that you have no idea what "dark matter" means.

Well, you would be correct then. It is supposed to explain Galaxies and rotation and other stuff, but when I ask a direct question about it, nobody seems to be able to answer. So of course I have no idea.

If you make something up, you are supposed to explain your invisible stuff, not expect others to. Does DM join with matter? If so, is it still DM?

Does it move towards matter? Does it have an orbit? Does it obey the laws of physics? Does it clump up? Form structures? Planet sized ones? Star sized ones? Can it carry a charge? Ionize? Is it affected by magnetism? Does it form plasmas?
 
So, you are saying you think "dark matter" is attracted to and combines with ordinary matter?

Nobody said anything about combining with ordinary matter. And as I already told you, the mutual attraction of dark matter and ordinary matter is the whole bloody point.

Is it still dark matter then?

Why not? Gravitational interaction doesn't require that there be any other form of interaction, and without electromagnetic interaction it's still going to be dark.

Does it form structures?

I already asked you what you meant by this, and you ignored me.

Clouds, plasmas, asteroids, planets, stars, or what?

Not that we know of. It does appear to clump on the galactic scale, however. But we don't have the sensitivity to detect any finer structure at the moment, and if gravity is the only mechanism of interaction, it might not.

It's also been pointed out repeatedly that many of your objections/questions pertain to neutrinos as well. They do not appear to form structures, they are attracted (very weakly, but still) to ordinary matter, and they do not interact via electromagnetism.
 
Okay...but Chandra was able to take this picture...

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_1325747b9dde63eccf.jpg[/qimg]

Isn't that dark matter?

Is it?

http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0702146 " The Bullet Cluster 1E0657-558 evidence shows Modified Gravity in the absence of Dark Matter,
J. R. Brownstein, J. W. Moffat, Mon.Not.Roy.Astron.Soc. 382 (2007) 29-47"

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/do...2966.2007.12403.x?cookieSet=1&journalCode=mnr "The collision velocity of the bullet cluster in conventional and modified dynamics, G. W. Angus and S. S. McGaugh, SUPA, School of Physics and Astronomy, Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society, Volume 383 Issue 2 Page 417-423, January 2008 ... snip ... "We consider the orbit of the bullet cluster 1E 0657?56 in both cold dark matter (CDM) and Modified Newtonian Dynamics (MOND) using accurate mass models appropriate to each case in order to ascertain the maximum plausible collision velocity. Impact velocities consistent with the shock velocity (~4700 km s^^-1) occur naturally in MOND. CDM can generate collision velocities of at most ~3800 km s^^-1, and is only consistent with the data, provided that the shock velocity has been substantially enhanced by hydrodynamical effects."

http://arxiv.org/abs/0706.1279 "The wedding of modified dynamics and non-exotic dark matter in galaxy clusters, B. FAMAEY, G. W. ANGUS, G. GENTILE, H. Y. SHAN, H. S. ZHAO, 2007 ... snip ... We summarize the status of Modified Newtonian Dynamics (MOND) in galaxy clusters. The observed acceleration is typically larger than the acceleration threshold of MOND in the central regions, implying that some dark matter is necessary to explain the mass discrepancy there. A plausible resolution of this issue is that the unseen mass in MOND is in the form of ordinary neutrinos with masses just below the experimentally detectable limit. In particular, we show that the lensing mass reconstructions of the rich clusters 1E0657-56 (the bullet cluster) and Cl0024+17 (the ring) do not pose a new challenge to this scenario."

http://allesoversterrenkunde.nl/con...efault&uid=default&ID=721&ww=1&view_records=1 "At a distance of 2.4 billion light years in the constellation of Orion, Abell 520 also consists of two colliding clusters. However, according to a team led by Andisheh Mahdavi and Henk Hoekstra of the University of Victoria, British Columbia, the dark matter in Abell 520 doesn’t appear to be tied to the galaxies. Instead, the lensing observations – carried out with the 3.6-meter Canada-France-Hawaii Telescope on Mauna Kea in Hawaii – indicate that huge amounts of dark matter are concentrated in the core of the colliding pair, where most of the hot gas is found but few galaxies are seen. As the team writes in their October 20 Astrophysical Journal paper, this dissociation between dark matter and galaxies "cannot be easily explained within the current…dark matter paradigm." "It’s a remarkable result," says cosmologist David Spergel of Princeton University. "A conservative explanation would be that not all dark matter concentrations are efficient in the formation of stars and galaxies. The alternative is that dark matter interacts with itself in response to an unknown, fifth force of Nature, which only involves dark matter." Under the influence of such an attractive force, two clouds of dark matter could no longer pass through each other unimpeded but would eventually be dragged like the hot cluster gas, ending up in the common center of gravity of the colliding clusters. Robert Sanders of the University of Groningen in the Netherlands says there’s a third solution to the problem: modified Newtonian dynamics (MOND). Invented in the early 1980’s by Mordehai Milgrom of the Weizman Institute in Rehovot, Israel, MOND proposes that the observed signatures of dark matter really result from a different behavior of the force of gravity. In particular gravity in low-acceleration regions (like the outskirts of galaxies) would weaken linearly with distance, not exponentially. Even in a MOND universe, some dark matter has to exist, but it could consist of "normal" particles, such as neutrinos, instead of mysterious, undetected stuff. Sanders says he and Milgrom are writing a paper on how MOND can accommodate the cluster observations. "These new results—if they are real—could be an outstanding success for MOND," he says."

http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0611777 "An Introduction to Gravitational Lensing in TeVeS, HongSheng Zhao, 2006, Bekenstein’s (2004) TeVeS theory has added an interesting twist to the search for dark matter and dark energy, modifying the landscape of gravity-related astronomy day by day. Built bottom-up rather than top-down as most gravity theories, TeVeS-like theories are healthily rooted on empirical facts, hence immediately passing sanity checks on galaxy rotation curves, solar system constraints, even bullet cluster of galaxies and cosmology with the help of 2eV neutrinos. ... snip ... TeVeS is an exception. It holds the promise of explaining both dark matter and cosmological constant by relaxing the SEP (strong equivalence principle) only in untested weak gravity envionments like in galaxies, but respecting the SEP to high accuracy in the solar system. ... snip ... Angus et al. (2006) found that the lensing peaks of the Bullet Cluster could be explained by adding neutrinos in a TeVeS-like modified gravity ... snip ... TeVeS is found to be • OK with solar system (Bekenstein & Maguijo 2006) • OK with Milky Way and Bulge Microlensing (no cusp problem, Famaey & Binney 2006) • Excellent description of spiral rotation curves (Mc-Gaugh 2005, Famaey et al. 2006) • OK with elliptical galaxies lenses (Zhao, Bacon, Taylor, Horne 2006) • OK with galaxy clusters if with neutrinos (Angus, Shan, Zhao, Famaey, 2006), • TeVeS universe can accelerate (Zhao 2006, astro-ph/0610056) • Structures and CMB can form from linear perturbations (Dodelson & Liguori 2006 ... snip ... • TeVeS is not grossly inconsistent with observations of lensing apart from a few outliers associated with galaxy clusters where massive neutrinos would contribute to the deflection of the light, • CMB anisotropy are predictable (Skordis et al. 2005), • structure formation in non-linear potential can in principle be followed by N-body codes (Ciotti et al. 2006)"

http://arxiv.org/abs/0706.3048 " A Dark Core in Abell 520, A. Mahdavi, H. Hoekstra, A. Babul, D. Balam, P. Capak, 2007, The rich cluster Abell 520 (z=0.201) exhibits truly extreme and puzzling multi-wavelength characteristics. It may best be described as a "cosmic train wreck." ... snip ... Although a displacement between the X-ray gas and the galaxy/dark matter distributions may be expected in a merger, a mass peak without galaxies cannot be easily explained within the current collisionless dark matter paradigm."

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cach..."+"not+dark+matter"&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=13&gl=us , arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0610298, "A New Force in the Dark Sector?, Glennys R. Farrar and Rachel A. Rosen, Center for Cosmology and Particle Physics, Department of Physics, New York University, 2007, We study the kinematics of dark matter using the massive cluster of galaxies 1E0657-56. ... snip ... If the discrepancy we find here between predicted and observed dynamics of the bullet subcluster is substantiated by refined observations and analysis, and confirmed in other systems, it would imply the existence of a long-range, non-gravitational force within the dark sector." Oh no ... now it's not just dark matter and dark energy, but dark forces! :D

http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn13280-galaxy-without-dark-matter-puzzles-astronomers.html "Galaxy without dark matter puzzles astronomers, February 2008 ... snip ... According to their combined mathematical model, ordinary luminous stars and gas can indeed account for all the mass in NGC 4736. ... snip ... "If this paper is correct, then this galaxy contains very little or no dark matter," says astrophysicist Jürg Diemand of the University of California, Santa Cruz, US, who is not a member of the team. "That is surprising." ... snip ... "It is unclear how one would form a galaxy without a dark halo, or how one could remove the halo without destroying the galaxy," says Diemand. "A galaxy without dark matter really does not fit into our current understanding of cosmology and galaxy formation." Nor can galaxies with declining rotation curves be easily explained by MOND, says McGaugh. So for now, it seems that some of our missing mass is missing."

And I've already mentioned what plasma cosmologists have to say about the Bullet Cluster. But here it is again. The dark matter explanation is based on a calculation full of assumptions. For one, it assumes that redshift always equates to distance. But mainstream astrophysicists seem to have no way of explaining the extremely large number of extremely unlikely "coincidences" with respect to the location of high red shift objects and low red shift objects ... so they just ignore them. Likewise, they can't explain "coincidences" with respect ot the relative position of objects and axes of rotation in the Local Group (of which the Bullet Cluster is a part)? The dark matter explanation also assumes the clusters are colliding.

Halton Arp, on the other hand, says quasars are not necessarily distant objects but may, in many cases, be relatively nearby objects created and ejected from older galaxies according to the equations in Narlikar's variable mass cosmology. He says BL Lac objects evolve from quasars. He says that instead of colliding, the cluster is actually in the process of forming from a BL Lac object. Arp says the Bullet Cluster is exhibiting the expected features of such an event. It has the redshift typical of BL Lac objects (z = 0.3). That redshift is one of the quantized redshift states in the theory he espouses. BL Lac objects emit x-rays. And Arp observes that other galaxy clusters do too. A collision isn't necessary to explain the X-rays. And as far as lensing is concerned, Arp says arcs are a natural phenomenon in clusters of galaxies. In the mainstream theory, high redshifts in these arcs is a must if they are to be gravitationally lensed distant background objects. However, Arp has shown that nearby Abell galaxy clusters also exhibit arcs and have such low mass that it is impossible for them to act as a gravitational lens. Plus, some of the arcs are radial ... not tangential. Furthermore, the Bullet Cluster fits neatly into his explanation of the Local Group and the relationship of its objects to one another. All without the need for dark matter. Arp's is true observationally based cosmology ... not one relying on gnomes and ignoring inconvenient observations.

Frankly, enigma, I think most readers would be better served investigating each of the links at http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/00subjectx.htm than meekly accepting the gnomes that you and the rest of the dark matteroligists have offered to explain away the observations. The universe they posit is far more interesting, beautiful and compelling than yours. :D
 
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The universe they posit is far more interesting, beautiful and compelling than yours. :D
For an RPG perhaps but then there is the little problem of reality of which you are extremely far removed.

ETA - what the hell does beauty have to do with it? Are you one of those braindead religious zealots?

ETA2 - what, if anything, would be sufficent to prove your claim false in your eyes?
 
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Nobody said anything about combining with ordinary matter. And as I already told you, the mutual attraction of dark matter and ordinary matter is the whole bloody point.

I said something about it. If "dark matter" is suspected because of it's gravity, then it attracts and is attracted to matter. (Or bends spacetime if you want to go all Einstein). Either way, things that have gravity move towards each other, and combine with each other.

So DM would do the same. What happens when it comes into contact with matter? Stars? Does it act like matter? Form structures? Rain down on planets?

How could it stay away from things it is gravitationally attracting? Or the other way around?
 
I said something about it. If "dark matter" is suspected because of it's gravity, then it attracts and is attracted to matter. (Or bends spacetime if you want to go all Einstein). Either way, things that have gravity move towards each other, and combine with each other.

Have the sun and the earth combined? I think that's not a very useful definition of the word "combine".

What happens when it comes into contact with matter? Stars? Does it act like matter? Form structures? Rain down on planets?

If it only interacts via gravity, then most of the time it'll just pass right through ordinary matter and even itself.

How could it stay away from things it is gravitationally attracting? Or the other way around?

Well, you do have it backwards, but perhaps not the way you think. How do two spatially separated bodies which are attracted to each other gravitationally ever stick together? To do that, they need to lose energy, otherwise they'll just fly apart again. But if the interaction is solely gravitational, how can dark matter lose energy? It can't really - it could give off gravity waves, but those are so pathetically weak that the timescale for doing so could easily exceed the lifetime of the universe many times over. So it'll just keep flying past matter.
 

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