• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

What's wrong with saying "we don't know"?

But the definition of "atheist" as being a non believer in God or gods doesn't allow that admission of a possibility. That admission shows that we aren't sure of our first atheistic claim. In short it is tantamount to saying we don;t know. Which is exactly what an agnostic would say.

Being atheistic is not making a claim though. A theist makes the claim that God did it. They have no more evidence that God did it than that the FSM did it. Does that mean they're FSM agnostics?
 
But the definition of "atheist" as being a non believer in God or gods doesn't allow that admission of a possibility. That admission shows that we aren't sure of our first atheistic claim. In short it is tantamount to saying we don;t know. Which is exactly what an agnostic would say.

What definitions are you using?

Merriam-Webster's Defines atheist as follows:

Main Entry:
athe·ist
Pronunciation:
\ˈā-thē-ist\
Function:
noun
Date:
1551

: one who believes that there is no deity


If I throw a rock up into the air, I believe that it will fall back down to earth. I may not think that it is completely impossible for that rock to just keep flying straight up, but it is so improbable that I would be a blithering idiot for expecting this to occur... EVER

I believe that there are no deities, because none of them make a lick of sense, and there is zero evidence to support the existence of any god or gods. I am an atheist.

That does not mean that I have to say that there isn't a one in near infinite chances that I could be wrong.

You sir, would like to paint all people that would classify themselves as atheists as ignorant egomaniacs who will not admit that there is this remote, and I mean REMOTE possibility, that they could be wrong.
 
An atheist is a person who rejects the idea that God does or can exist. I have never heard a definition of atheist which allows for the minute probability of God existing you mention. But let's continue along that probability line. You say atheists conclude that the probability is so low that it is tantamount to being impossible. but you see, that's just the problem. Atheists are concluding based on the experiences they garnered through their senses in this microscopic part of the universe and want to extrapolate it to all reality. That constitutes a generalization based on scanty and unrepresentative evidence. You cannot extrapolate your conclusions into areas which you know nothing about.

For example, astronomers tell us that our detectable or visible universe is a very likely a small part of the whole which lies beyond our detection. You ignore this and say that your statistical conclusions reached here can be applied there. But you know absolutely nothing about what's over there. So how much credit can be placed in such an estimate? I would say zilch since there is absolutely no reason to have confidence in such an estimate.

Actually, what I see you doing is putting your skepticism on hold when convenient to and reactivating it when convenient. Which is fallacious reasoning by virtue of inconsistency. So since that's the case and since it will continue to be the case regardless of any argument proposed, it's best that we agree to disagree and leave it at that.

BTW
Several years ago an atheist on this religious forum site told me that the reason he refused all logic was because it was his duty to oppose religion at any all cost. This is the general impression I get and which seems to be the modus operandi of the so-called skeptics here on this so called religious board.

Again you ignore every definition of atheism given to you by atheists and substitute your own definition. That's fantastic. Go and talk to people who fit your pre-conceived mold of atheism.

Any of us here openly admit the possibility of the existence of God. By definition we're all required to be agnostic. In practice, we usually take sides. You are no more certain about the existence of God than you are of the IPU, the FSM, or Bobo the Magical Clown who surfs from planet to planet.

You seem like the type who watched the Matrix and then spent weeks boring everyone you know with the basics of Cartesian doubt as if it were something new being brought to the table.

Our skepticism is in full effect. We wait until there is evidence before we make a claim. You, however, claim that the lack of evidence is just reason to believe in a divine entity. You obviously haven't the slightest clue how rational thought works (nor how to read as you ignore every post that points out your absurd shortcomings).
 
I wish theists would simply go to wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism to understand the position of "atheists" it's a little bit more subtle than they are used to. It's not hard to understand.

Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive. I am both a weak (agnostic) atheist and a strong atheist DEPENDING ON WHAT god is being discussed. If you are talking very generally about god that we have no knowledge of then I'm an agnostic atheist. No knowledge and no belief. If you define say the Christian god then I take the position of a strong atheist and say it does not exist or rather the probabilities of that existing are so small that it's close to zero anyway because the definition is self contradictory and incoherent (and even if it did exist it certainly wouldn't be worth worshipping so why call it god).

Only when someone defines god, it's properties etc can a person then decide what position to take. Since no successful definition has ever been put forward then it's safer to say we have no knowledge. Without knowledge then there is little point in debate. Those that then invoke faith should simply be laughed at.
 
Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive. I am both a weak (agnostic) atheist and a strong atheist DEPENDING ON WHAT god is being discussed.

I believe your statement to be correct (and Moby's).

Do theist have this problem where the definition is allowed to be fuzzy and mutable, because theism requires absolutes?

The idea of a world without absolutes or agenda seems to make them collectively unfluffy

and I like my world fluffy, furry, and fuzzy
 
I thought this thread was going to be about defending science from the barbarian hordes.

I see that it's just devolving into a, "Definition of Atheist, Agnostic and Theist," thread...
 
I thought this thread was going to be about defending science from the barbarian hordes.

I see that it's just devolving into a, "Definition of Atheist, Agnostic and Theist," thread...

that's only the people that don't handle evolution very well doing the devolving everyone else is quite fluffy
 
I thought this thread was going to be about defending science from the barbarian hordes.

I see that it's just devolving into a, "Definition of Atheist, Agnostic and Theist," thread...
Yeah, I hate it when that happens.

Nevertheless, having read (again) Moby's explanation of why there isn't, I am still of the opinion that there really is a theist -> agnostic -> atheist continuum. I consider myself to be an agnostic, but I usually just call myself an atheist because it's easier than getting into a long discussion of definitions.

If you define "God" as "the whole universe," (pantheism) then who (besides the solipsists) can deny that the universe exists? Whether it makes sense to monotheists or to atheists to define "god" that way is a different issue. Whether you attribute the quality of consciousness to this "god" is another.

So I consider myself agnostic -- don't know if there is a god, it depends on your definition of god. But I call myself an atheist as a kind of shorthand for "I don't believe in the monotheistic all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good entity which people in my neck of the woods generally have in mind when they use the word 'god'."

Sorry to interrupt.
 
Last edited:
One of the biggest topics in these debates between believers and non-believers is on the origin of the universe.
"The universe had an origin" seems to be agreed, so I don't get the belief bit here.

(Caveat: there is the school of thought that holds to "it has always been and time goes like a time line to infinity in both directions," so maybe I had better include them in the mix. Recent SM & T thread reminded me of that school of thought, which I had thought Hawking had pointed to being impractical based on observations to date, speed of light, etc. )

Well... isn't it just as meaningful then to say that our human minds can't fathom the start of the universe?
Some very smart folks can, but they are a puny minority, and they are still working on circumstantial evidence.

Was there ever a T < 0? How does one gather evidence for that state? Not a trivial question. The spacetime model provides a way to examine that, even though the state at T = 0 is still a matter for investigation. It may never be knowable.

(I'll avoid the usual jokes about God sitting on the sofa, watching the Titans and the Demigods playing football, drinking beer and eating chili, and suddenly farting the universe into existence at T=0. )
Why is it not okay to say "we don't know" to the origin of the universe but okay to say "we don't know" about the origin of God? The only difference is that you're throwing in a cosmic boogeyman which can be exploited.
So, returning to my original point, I ask what is so wrong about saying "we don't know" when posed a question to which we do not have any really good answers?
I prefer to say "I don't know" as there is a great deal of presumption about what others don't know, and know, when I use "we."
Why is there a demand for the answer right now so great that people will just attribute magic to fill in the hole even at the expense of throwing reason out the window?
Some people feel very insecure without an answer.

DR
 
Last edited:
Opinions are not a breach of the membership agreement. Stupidity is not a crime.
Point 1: agreed

Point 2: Not so much

Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.

-=Robert A. Heinlein=-

:cool:

DR
 
An atheist is a person who rejects the idea that God does or can exist. I have never heard a definition of atheist which allows for the minute probability of God existing you mention. But let's continue along that probability line. You say atheists conclude that the probability is so low that it is tantamount to being impossible. but you see, that's just the problem. Atheists are concluding based on the experiences they garnered through their senses in this microscopic part of the universe and want to extrapolate it to all reality. That constitutes a generalization based on scanty and unrepresentative evidence. You cannot extrapolate your conclusions into areas which you know nothing about.
If the best you can do is to force your personal definitions onto people who do not conform to your prejudiced standards, then you're obviously in the wrong discussion. It's been explained many times already that you're basing your arguments on a definition of atheism that doesn't apply to anyone here. A word of advice, it's not a good idea to assume you know exactly how or what other people are thinking, especially online, where you rarely have any idea of whom you're speaking with.
For example, astronomers tell us that our detectable or visible universe is a very likely a small part of the whole which lies beyond our detection. You ignore this and say that your statistical conclusions reached here can be applied there. But you know absolutely nothing about what's over there. So how much credit can be placed in such an estimate? I would say zilch since there is absolutely no reason to have confidence in such an estimate.
That's great. You ignored what I said regarding the definition of a god. A being hiding in a remote corner of the universe is not God, because it is not interacting with us, and has no effect on our lives in any meaningful way. If any kind of god exists, based on how nearly every religion or belief system has qualified what it means to be a god, then we should find evidence of its existence in the human realm. In fact, we should find loads of evidence.

Have you read the bible? Does God simply sit somewhere on its throne in a galaxy far, far away and never intervene with human affairs? For that matter, do the gods of any other religion that you can think of fit this description? God must be accessible, otherwise God isn't God. You can try to "prove" the existence of any imaginary being by resorting to the argument ad ignorantum as you just did, but it's still a logical fallacy, and it doesn't work on gods.
Actually, what I see you doing is putting your skepticism on hold when convenient to and reactivating it when convenient. Which is fallacious reasoning by virtue of inconsistency. So since that's the case and since it will continue to be the case regardless of any argument proposed, it's best that we agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Wrong. My stance is that, given the minute percentage of the universe we have explored, there is a good chance that there is something out there beyond our comprehension. In fact, I would even grant you that such a thing does exist, given the degree of variation we see even on Earth. However if we do one day discover something far more advanced than ourselves, I believe the proper approach would be to learn as much as we can about it, or possibly from it; NOT get on our knees and start sending up prayers and worship.

It still would not be a god, and I see no reason to call it God. It's only a god if you feel compelled to start kissing its ass, which I think is a behavior that only serves to diminish both the worshiper and the object of worship. As they say in Buddhism, "Once you worship the Buddha, you close his mouth forever." There is a distinct difference between a teacher-student relationship, and a master-slave relationship. As an atheist, I have the advantage of being able to accept the possibility of something greater than anything you might call God.
 
Atheists are concluding based on the experiences they garnered through their senses in this microscopic part of the universe and want to extrapolate it to all reality. That constitutes a generalization based on scanty and unrepresentative evidence. You cannot extrapolate your conclusions into areas which you know nothing about.

Ok so let's stipulate the evidence is "scanty and unrepresentative", so we should then ignore what little we have and believe things for which there is no evidence whatsoever?

And if so how might we choose which to believe amongst the infinity of things for which there is no evidence?
 
Nevertheless, having read (again) Moby's explanation of why there isn't, I am still of the opinion that there really is a theist -> agnostic -> atheist continuum. I consider myself to be an agnostic, but I usually just call myself an atheist because it's easier than getting into a long discussion of definitions.

See, now that just confuses me. I've explained this all I don't know how many times, and yet there are still many people who insist upon there being some sort of bizarre continuum. Never any reasoning or evidence behind the statement, merely that it is their opinion or whatever.

It's getting really tiring, honestly. You can't have a meaningful discussion about a topic if people are allowed to use nonsense words and definitions.
 
Ok so let's stipulate the evidence is "scanty and unrepresentative", so we should then ignore what little we have and believe things for which there is no evidence whatsoever?

I haven't made that claim on this thread. Didn't I just explain a while ago on a recent post that I am taking the hypothetical agnostic stance of I don't know in this discussion?

And if so how might we choose which to believe amongst the infinity of things for which there is no evidence?

Then simply say you don't know.

BTW
Illogical reasoning is unjustifiable no matter how we look at it.
 
Last edited:
If the best you can do is to force your personal definitions onto people who do not conform to your prejudiced standards, then you're obviously in the wrong discussion.

Prejudiuced and dictating. You just managed to describe yourself and your cronies. As for definitions, your definitions don't make sense to me because they are self contradictory. If they make perfect sense to you then that's OK by me. But don't try to foist them on me. In whatever case, the TYPE of atheist I have chosen to refer to is a total atheist in the way I have chosen to
describe. Is that OK by you? If not then either use the ignore option or don't waste my time with irrelevant remarks.

Snip Snip Snip Snip Snip Sigh! Bye!

BTW
Please try to stay within the intitial subject parameters as I am carefully doing instead of creating a target and attributing that target to me. Otherwise I will be forced to discuss things only with those who remain within the thread's parameters since I have a low level of tolerance for deviations-especially deviations full of snide remarks, and delivered in a sarcastic angered tone.
 
Last edited:
Well, here is what is wrong with it from the atheist side:

Atheists avoid the I don't know, response when faced with the patently unknown because they see such an admission as a defeat. You see, if they admit ignorance about things beyond what science can know, then they feel that they have admitted to the possibility of God.

For example, if the present ignorance about other dimensions, their laws, or other possible universes is mentioned-they become uncomfortable and change the subject or don't reply. ....


Yikes! I never heard that one before. Here is at least one atheist who is not afraid to say "I don't know". Good grief, where does that come from? (bolding mine)

Not knowing is what makes life worth the search for the truth.
 
Last edited:
It's getting really tiring, honestly. You can't have a meaningful discussion about a topic if people are allowed to use nonsense words and definitions.
You see, the woo side of the discussion isn't interested in anything really meaningful. A meaningful discussion runs the risk of completely invalidating their woo beliefs... which is why they avoid it whenever possible.
 
I thought this thread was going to be about defending science from the barbarian hordes.

I see that it's just devolving into a, "Definition of Atheist, Agnostic and Theist," thread...

Not at all. It's about what is so wroing in admitting that one doesn't know.
 

Back
Top Bottom