• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Israel will allow fuel, medicine into Gaza - official

You provided support, over and over, for the claim that Hamas smuggles in weapons. This is not contested. Get it? This is not contested.

Isn't this kind of nit-picking embarrassing to you? One can imagine you having a similar argument over Jeffrey Dahmer, conceding that he ate people but demanding proof that he used a fork in his cannibalism.
 
sorry web, its not a fact.

Yes, it is. The use of the cranes was observed by the IDF. The crates they lifted over contained rockets and other arms. All that is confirmed by the testimony of the head of the Shin Bet (Security Services) in closed session in front of the Israeli government.

Now, if you are demanding that I provide the transcript of the testimony in front of the entire Israeli cabinet, and point out where Yuval Diskin specifically mentions "cranes", then I will have to say -- No, T-F, this is beyond the scope of our little forum here.

I will leave it at this:

1. Israeli military observation of the Rafah zone was ongoing during the entire episode of the breach, and is ongoing to this day.

2. Israeli Air Force officers (some of whom who I happen to know personally) had a decision to make -- to either go after the cranes and the trucks that were being observed loading weapons, and end up killing a rather large number of civilians gathered in the area, or go after specific HAMAS operatives & leaders who are responsible directly. They chose the latter.
That is still the operative IAF methodology, to avoid collateral deaths.

3. I used the word "heavy" (not "large") and the lifting of crates of NUR rockets would, by definition, require the use of "heavy" cranes. I now see that you have been reduced to trying to narrow down my claim so that when I said "heavy cranes" it must not include "hydraulic lift arms loading trucks". OK, T-F, on that point, I'll concede.

T-F once more descends into woo-woo land:
But anyway, feel free to proclaim it a fact one more time.

It's a fact. HAMAS took advantage of the breach they created, to bring across large quantities of heavy weaponry (which they couldn't smuggle through the tunnels) and in that endeavor, they used cranes and trucks to load and transport them.

See ya.
 
Ongoing Events:

A fascinating bit of overnight news (Sunday 10-2-08):

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/952556.html --
An Israel Air Force strike killed a Hamas militant in the Gaza Strip early Sunday. An Israeli army spokeswoman said the air strike had targeted a Hamas terrorist who had been involved in smuggling weapons. Hamas confirmed that the IAF missile strike killed a local commander in the southern Gaza town of Rafah.

What's fascinating are the following two things:

1. Israel knew who this guy was. (Weapons Smuggler Leader)
2. Israel knew exactly where he was. (In Rafah).

Badda-bing, badda-bang.

Good riddance.
 
Last edited:
Yes, it is. The use of the cranes was observed by the IDF. The crates they lifted over contained rockets and other arms. All that is confirmed by the testimony of the head of the Shin Bet (Security Services) in closed session in front of the Israeli government.
Wow....we have direct access to closed sessions of the Israeli parliament via a member with inside connections and we know stuff thats said there and not even documented.. I'm gobsmacked.....If the Israeli secret service learns of this leak the JREF may be in big trouble. I bet there are Israeli agents creeping around the JREF building right now trying to figure out how state secrets get posted here..
Now, if you are demanding that I provide the transcript of the testimony in front of the entire Israeli cabinet, and point out where Yuval Diskin specifically mentions "cranes", then I will have to say -- No, T-F, this is beyond the scope of our little forum here.
Thats correct web, thats why what you post here ar idle speculation used to drive a partisan spin peddling policy... no matter how hard you squeal that its fact.
 
Last edited:
T-F goes off the deep end --
I bet there are Israeli agents creeping around the JREF building right now trying to figure out how state secrets get posted here.

http://www.weaponsurvey.com/missilesrockets.htm

and

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/09/03/wmid03.xml

and


http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1207

and

http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=4998


and

http://scherblog.wordpress.com/2008/02/03/gaza-breach-allows-in-advanced-weapons/
Hamas’s breach of the security fence along the Egypt-Gaza border has resulted in the smuggling of a large amount of advanced weaponry, including long-range rockets, anti-tank missiles, and anti-aircraft missiles, Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) head Yuval Diskin said in his briefing to Israeli government ministers during Sunday’s cabinet meeting.


As for JREF --- not to worry:

(From the main page)
"However, no one posting in the forums does so on behalf of James Randi or of the JREF. Messages posted in the forum are solely the opinion of their authors."
 
T-F goes off the deep end --

http://www.weaponsurvey.com/missilesrockets.htm

and

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/09/03/wmid03.xml

and


http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1207

and

http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=4998


and

http://scherblog.wordpress.com/2008/02/03/gaza-breach-allows-in-advanced-weapons/
Hamas’s breach of the security fence along the Egypt-Gaza border has resulted in the smuggling of a large amount of advanced weaponry, including long-range rockets, anti-tank missiles, and anti-aircraft missiles, Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) head Yuval Diskin said in his briefing to Israeli government ministers during Sunday’s cabinet meeting.


As for JREF --- not to worry:

(From the main page)
"However, no one posting in the forums does so on behalf of James Randi or of the JREF. Messages posted in the forum are solely the opinion of their authors."

no web..as usual none of your posted links mentions your favourite cranes or what they were lifting over the fence that day. It does confirm that smuggling happens....which is of course not contested. Looks like we have to continue to rely on your secret sources and the stuff you know is said in the Israeli parliament that is not mentioned in publicly available sources.
 
This entire line of discussion with T-F started with POST # 168,as I was decribing how HAMAS is defined as a terrorist organization, and financial dealings with it are prohibited by various International Banking rules.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3375243&postcount=168
"So the contracts you suggest thay have (freely obtained) with Israeli companies are Illegal??
Is this some sort of Pea and shell debate method?"

I replied in POST # 169 that the Israeli contracts are not with HAMAS, but with the PA, and the PA is infamous for their own pea and shell methods.

In that same post (which is now a matter of some aggravation to T-F, and in which he is saying I made statements that are "spin" and "Partisan" ) ----- I revealed facts which were told to me by high-ranking Israeli Air Force Officers (men who I know personally). I still am not sure why T-F has decided that the version of the events as I'm offering it needs to be "evidenced" at all. I have no idea even what evidence he is looking for! X-ray images of the crates?

The facts of the matter are:

HAMAS used cranes and trucks to bring over weapons, during a breach of the border with Egypt. The IAF considered destroying these right then and there, as they were observed.
The decision was made to avoid civilian casualties, as the HAMAS was using human shields, so the IAF then went after specific individuals who were behind the operations of the weapons-imports. The IAF is continuing to do exactly that.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/952865.html

No spin. Truth.
 
I can see why The Fool would ask for evidence for the crane-thing, but not his obsession for focusing solely on that. The bottom line is that weapons are being smuggled into Gaza and if everyone can agree on that then I don't see any reason for endlessly beating a dead horse crane.
 
Last edited:
This entire line of discussion with T-F started with POST # 168,as I was decribing how HAMAS is defined as a terrorist organization, and financial dealings with it are prohibited by various International Banking rules.

Webs, he's not arguing with you anymore, he's just baiting you. You've won the argument, let the rest go.
 
Darn, I hate it when that happens and I take the bait.
I should know better.

SharkBait2006.jpg
 
I can see why The Fool would ask for evidence for the crane-thing, but not his obsession for focusing solely on that. The bottom line is that weapons are being smuggled into Gaza and if everyone can agree on that then I don't see any reason for endlessly beating a dead horse crane.
obsession?

Ok anyone on this forum can now claim that something is a fact without evidence and keep claiming it. If someone keeps challenging the claim then its an obsession? OK....we'll all just accept claims as facts and end this obsession about requiring evidence to establish facts.
 
obsession?
Yeah, obsession.
Ok anyone on this forum can now claim that something is a fact without evidence and keep claiming it. If someone keeps challenging the claim then its an obsession? OK....we'll all just accept claims as facts and end this obsession about requiring evidence to establish facts.
Spare me your BS. Your incessant crane-nit, which doesn't even change the premise of the smuggling of arms into Gaza one way or the other, seems more personal than skeptical. I'm beginning to think Mycroft is right, you just post here because you get a hard-on baiting Webfusion.
 
Just to set the record straight, the original request for my "source" came from mr.baracuda, and then a_u_p chimed in asking why they needed cranes at all since the wall had been breached!
(and I provided the articles and photos of those cranes being used, moving livestock and 'motorcycle' crates).
 
Last edited:
Yeah, obsession.Spare me your BS. Your incessant crane-nit, which doesn't even change the premise of the smuggling of arms into Gaza one way or the other, seems more personal than skeptical.
nobody was attempting to change any premise of the smuggling. Just try to differentiate between speculation and fact. Web likes to speculate and present it as fact and I like to ask him for evidence. Sorry if that annoys you.



I'm beginning to think Mycroft is right, you just post here because you get a hard-on baiting Webfusion.
Sorry, can't comment on mycrofts post, I ignore them.

anyway...if you think asking for evidence is baiting thats your business...
 
Last edited:
Just to set the record straight, the original request for my "source" came from mr.baracuda, and then a_u_p chimed in asking why they needed cranes at all since the wall had been breached!
(and I provided the articles and photos of those cranes being used, moving livestock and 'motorcycle' crates).

Hey web...I think that some newcomers may not realise how much in love we really are :)
 
nobody was attempting to change any premise of the smuggling. Just try to differentiate between speculation and fact. Web likes to speculate and present it as fact and I like to ask him for evidence. Sorry if that annoys you.
Save your skeptical inquiry spiel for someone who didn't read page after page of your asinine nit about a crane.
anyway...if you think asking for evidence is baiting thats your business...
In case you haven't noticed, I'm making it your business as well.
 
Save your skeptical inquiry spiel for someone who didn't read page after page of your asinine nit about a crane.In case you haven't noticed, I'm making it your business as well.
whatever you like son....just don't make us hang around too long waiting for you to make a point.
 
whatever you like son....just don't make us hang around too long waiting for you to make a point.
Us?" Is there more than one of you TF? :rolleyes:

"Son?" Is that lame attempt at condescension supposed to put me in my place?

"Hang around too long waiting for
to make a point?" I think you get my point just fine.The question is, where do you go from here? Are you capable of actually contributing to this thread outside of dogging webfusion? If you're not we'll continue to have these nice little chats until the "us" that you use to refer to yourself finally gets it.
 
Us?" Is there more than one of you TF? :rolleyes:

"Son?" Is that lame attempt at condescension supposed to put me in my place?

"Hang around too long waiting for
to make a point?" I think you get my point just fine.The question is, where do you go from here? Are you capable of actually contributing to this thread outside of dogging webfusion? If you're not we'll continue to have these nice little chats until the "us" that you use to refer to yourself finally gets it.


Is that your point? Its unreasonable to "dog" people for evidence to back up thier claims? sigh, you would be popular in the conspiracy theory forum, why don't you go there and defend those that make claims without evidence that they know what "really happened". There are lots of people in there "dogging" them for you to whine at.

Ok, pin the ears back I've got something to tell you about.

The attitude that you are defending gets people killed. Strong statement? Ok lets assume that on that day when the blockade collapsed that the IDF was indeed happy to accept the same claim as web's claim that it was a "fact" that those cranes that were lifting cattle and crates over walls and fences actually contained rockets. They would have been quite justified in blowing them to bits. They accepted webs "fact"....are you confident enough in the "facts" about those cranes to accept an attack on them? Web seems a bit bemused that they were not attacked....Hmmmmm, maybe the line he claims he was fed from an un-named source was not good enough for the IDF to eliminate the "rockets"???

so now extrapolate that from cranes (which you think I'm fixated on) to other things. "that car contains a Hamas leader" its a FACT ok......blow it up. That house is a terrorist HQ...its a FACT ok..... you may wish to accept webs "facts" as such if you wish, its your choice but it still doesn't change it from speculation if there is no evidence.
 
T-F has moved on:

"that car contains a Hamas leader" its a FACT ok......blow it up.

Done.

2-13-08: The Israel Defense Forces and the Shin Bet internal security service are preparing to step up assassinations against key Hamas and Islamic-Jihadi figures in the Gaza Strip in response to the continued Qassam rocket attacks against Sderot.


Now, T-F, I have to tell you, I have no evidence whatsoever to present here that this exploding arms depot contained arms at all. It may have been a warehouse for toilet paper, I just don't know. The jobs of the IAF and the Israeli Security Services are difficult enough and not every instance of their actions needs to be evaluated against a background of skeptical anonymous internet-forum members clamoring for "evidence" of what the targets actually are.

I know one fact in all this:

The Jihadists are totally responsible. They are losing a war that they started and they are continuing, and the people of gaza are the ones suffering. And they will go right on suffering, until HAMAS and Co. decides the lives of their own people are important.
 
Last edited:

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom