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PRACTICAL fusion device by Princeton physicist suppressed

I read the same Beachnut posts and saw immediately that he was saying that 1g of accelleration won't get you off the surface of Earth. Was I wrong? What's the problem?
That's the problem. There was a difference in interpretation. You and beachnut saw the comment as meaning one thing, and myself and enigma took it to mean something else. A simple misunderstanding, nothing more, but unfortunately it led to things getting a bit heated between beachnut and enigma.

Hopefully that's all sorted out now.
 
So the assumption of leaving from the surface was an assumption you made. That in no way means a 1 G acceleration is impossible.
From earth at 1 g, you go no where. Do you? (editorial you; use we, or me if needed, as you wish) How can a 1 g acceleration be impossible, we are under it this moment? But you are not leaving earth at one g, making that impossible to go to mars at 1 g from the surface of earth. My sarcastic statement, knowing hopefully metamars meant somewhere in space.

There lies another assumption on your part. Do you care to show me the post where i said anything Metamars said was true (besides that a 1 G acceleration isn't impossible).
How does this prove that 1 G acceleration is impossible? Now time for my assumption. You are (or were) a fighter pilot (or maybe it was someone else here) so how can you sit there with a smug look on your face and tell me 1 G acceleration isn't possible when you have flown at acceleration well above 1 G?[/color]
Never said travel at 1 g was impossible. I know of no engine now that gives you me or anyone many hours of acceleration at 1 g yet. But I know so little, and I believe that. There are ion engines, they do run for thousands of hours if they have the fuel. [/color]
Again, what is with the assumptions that I have an engine? Are you turning woo?
Do we have an engine now to do 1 g in space for hours? No woo, do you know an engine now we can use to get 1 g for 50 hours in space? Anyone have one? I am just asking. I know a Saturn V only gives acceleration for 2 minutes or so. Someone was talking about accelerations for 50 hours. I never said it was impossible to accelerate at 1 g. But do not get upset if you can't leave earth's surface at 1 g. It is impossible to leave earths surface at 1 g, unless you can tell me how. I am stumped. But I agree, in space you can have any acceleration you can produce. (you could tell me, yes there is a ion engine, it can run for hours, over 1000 hours. It uses electricity to accelerate the fuel. It can produce 70 milliNewtons. ) No woo, information. Knowledge. I have not studied this since the 7th grade. We talked about it then, in 1964.


Yes...you said 1 G acceleration is impossible to achieve from the surface of the Earth.
Is it possible to leave the surface of the earth at 1 g. What is new. You have to use more acceleration to leave. You got me, since we are at 1 g sitting on earth. You are this very second under the acceleration of 1 g. If you are falling you are accelerating at 1 g. So 1 g acceleration is not going anywhere on the surface of the earth. You, me, and everything on the earth are accelerating now at 1 g. We can't move down, we are standing, sitting. Unless you come across a hole, you are stable at 1 g on the surface. So you take a rocket, and it gives a constant 1 g, you will sit on earth until you run out of fuel. I have found it impossible to leave earth. The 1 g was sarcasm, the correct response I would expect from you and other is what I thought I got in general, In space beachnut! Yes I see! But yes, I found it impossible to leave earth at 1 g acceleration.


It is still impossible to leave the surface at the earth at 1 g. But ion engines at 0.0005 g, will after time reach great speeds. But no way will 1 g do much but levitate on earth.

Debunker burnout. What the hell does Bush have to do with this Beachnut?
Nothing, the same as metamars not stating initial conditions. The same as taking my sarcastic 1 g truth as much more than a simple truth, but does not mean much for a ion drive. If you have an idea how to leave earth with a 1 g engine, fine, show me. But I still find it impossible. In space, I already know of ion engine being used to go to the moon, and more. So, what is new. Who needs a reactor, I can use an electric drive.


But I am ready, who says you can leave earth at 1 g? Not allowed more than 1 g acceleration. How can I leave earth at 1 g?

I was being sarcastic knowing you can pick most any g you can achieve in space. I think 1 g is optimistic, I have not had time to run the numbers. I know a 70 milliNewton ion engine was working in space. The vehicle was 366.5 kg , with 82 kg of fuel. What is that, 0.0000195 g? And these engine run for hundreds if not thousands of hours. You have to have fuel.

You need more than 1 g to leave earth. In space; You can use an ion engine for thousands of hours if you have the fuel. One was running for 100 hours plus at 0.0000195 g or so, it went to the moon. But you just do not point and go at these accelerations. The spacecraft was 366 kg or so. Interesting stuff. New engines are 10 times more powerful.

No real CT from the video. I still do not understand why the 1g stuff makes waves? I have found ion engines that work for thousands of hours. Nukes would be a good source of electricity to run ion engines, they use solar arrays too. Nukes would be really good for future plasma engines. Like I said, ion engines have been the dream for space missions since I was kid in the 60s. I am still puzzeled about the 1 g stuff; you just can't go anywhere up at 1g because we are at 1g.

Ion engine, 0 to 60 mph in 4 days, now that is acceleration. I guess the 1 g model is waiting for power, and a plasma drive.
 
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Having read this thread, I think you people should start going to bed earlier!
 
Please tell me there are flying cars.... I want a flying car!


1706047adc936d3f43.jpg
 
Why do you think it wouldn't scale up if we had a large power supply?
because youd also have to scale up the amount of fuel you bring with you (remember basic physics, if you want to move forward you have to push a proportional amount of mass out the back of your rocket) so more fuel means you need more energy to accelerate (because you also have to accelerate your fuel reserves along with your spacecraft) which means you need to bring more fuel, which means you need more energy, which means you need....

and it goes on and on
 
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From earth at 1 g, you go no where. Do you?
Last time i am going to ask and last time I am going to respond to you unless you give a normal answer and not some idiotic watered down twisted bs. Was the assumption that the spaceship Metamars mentioned leaving from the Earth and who made that assumption?
But do not get upset if you can't leave earth's surface at 1 g.
How do you come to that conclusion? I'm upset about something i didn't mention???
The 1 g was sarcasm, the correct response I would expect from you and other is what I thought I got in general, In space beachnut! Yes I see! But yes, I found it impossible to leave earth at 1 g acceleration.
So it takes you three pages of your acting like a child to admit that it was a sarcastic (and stupid) remark?!
 
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because youd also have to scale up the amount of fuel you bring with you (remember basic physics, if you want to move forward you have to push a proportional amount of mass out the back of your rocket) so more fuel means you need more energy to accelerate (because you also have to accelerate your fuel reserves along with your spacecraft) which means you need to bring more fuel, which means you need more energy, which means you need....

and it goes on and on
But those would scale linearly in proportion to the thrust. Those scale out of proportion as your are describing if you are trying to increase duration.

The question boils down to: can those engines deliver more than 10 newtons per kilogram of their own mass (including fuel and energy supply)? Since these are mostly laboratory prototypes I'm not sure anyone has tried to optimize mass on one.
 
But those would scale linearly in proportion to the thrust. Those scale out of proportion as your are describing if you are trying to increase duration.

The question boils down to: can those engines deliver more than 10 newtons per kilogram of their own mass (including fuel and energy supply)? Since these are mostly laboratory prototypes I'm not sure anyone has tried to optimize mass on one.
the current crop of engines provide about 200N of thrust, im pretty sure they weigh more than 20kg

given that they are intended for spacecraft i would think weight optimization would be done rather early on, to determine if the project is worth pursuing at all
 
Last time i am going to ask and last time I am going to respond to you unless you give a normal answer and not some idiotic watered down twisted bs. Was the assumption that the spaceship Metamars mentioned leaving from the Earth and who made that assumption?How do you come to that conclusion? I'm upset about something i didn't mention??? So it takes you three pages of your acting like a child to admit that it was a sarcastic (and stupid) remark?!
twisted bs, an I love science so... No assumptions did I make. I did not conclude anything;
I said a true statement.
No, (not sitting on earth) you can not use 1 g. WE are sitting here typing at 1 g. ...
It is true.

Show me were I am wrong.
Want to explain that to me S-L-O-W-L-Y please Beachnut. Why can't a 1 G acceleration be achieved?
Your statement makes no sense at all; I never said you can not achieve 1g.

I said
No, (not sitting on earth) you can not use 1 g. WE are sitting here typing at 1 g. ...
It is true.


PRACTICAL fusion device by Princeton physicist suppressed
Not true.
 
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Comparison to Space Shuttle Stats

From the abstract of The Advent of Clean Nuclear Fusion: Superperformance Space Power and Propulsion, by Robert Bussard, we read that a full scale demo, that is expected to deliver 100 MW, would be 2.5 - 3m in diameter.

By way of comparison, the space shuttle's cargo bay can accommodate a tour bus, or 18 x 4.6 meters. *

A 3 m polyhedral fusion device would, of course, need to be supported by auxiliary devices, not to mention some way of coupling the energy with a reaction mass device.

Can a 100 MW give you 1g in space if your total weight is, say, 2000 tons? Don't know, and don't want to figure it out right now. Considering the title of Bussard's paper, I would think we'd at least be in the right ball park. If anybody wants to figure it out, please do so.

(According to http://www.frontiernet.net/~docbob/shuttle.htm, total weight at liftoff is 4.5 million pounds; subtract 1 million pounds of solid propellant, 603 tons liquid O2, 101 tons liquid hydrogen to get about 3 million pounds in outer space)

* a tour bus - maybe we've finally got a way to get rid of Gravy!
 
Unfortunately, I have to agree with Bussard that China or possibly India are likely to develop this before the US. This is tragic, in that Bussard is an American, the patents are owned by an American company, and there's no good reason why the US couldn't lead the way to a very benign ecological future.
If the patents actually worked as advertised then you'd have Exxon, Mobil, Shell,
and many other energy companies jumping at the chance to buy the patent. It's a scam. In fact it's one of those idiotic scams that rely on the ignorance of the patent system.
PS: Wow. Wikipedia used the JREF forum as a direct citation...
His letter
 
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I think you may have misinterpreted Beachnut's point. You also seem to be making personal attacks on him.

What I find most amusing is the way you fly right off the handle in the first response and then accuse him of behaving like a "spoiled brat" and "a little girl that had her dolly taken away". Are you trying to provide a textbook example of projection, or what?

Which is why I still have him on ignore, and frankly the board is a far nice place.
 
In fact it's one of those idiotic scams that rely on the ignorance of the patent system.
Nah...the patent system isn't at fault. It is the people who misrepresent the patent (which usually is only an application). Most people do not realize that a patent application nor a patent necessarily means anything more than there is a patent or application. Patents or patent applications do not mean working models or economic feasability.
 
Nah...the patent system isn't at fault. It is the people who misrepresent the patent (which usually is only an application). Most people do not realize that a patent application nor a patent necessarily means anything more than there is a patent or application. Patents or patent applications do not mean working models or economic feasability.
True. Technically the patent is suppsoed to represent something that is theoretically possible though that got thrown out the window a long time ago.
Quite frankly after reading Gray's link where is the conspiracy? The United States government is funding the reactor that we have no idea if it will work or not.
 
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In the abstract, Brussard also says
Design studies of IEF-based space propulsion ... show that this can yield engine systems whose thrust/mass ratio is 1000x higher for any given specific impulse (Isp), over a range of 1000 < Isp < 1E6 sec, than ay other advanced propulsion means, with consequent 100x reduction in costs of spaceflight.

(emphasis mine)
 
In the abstract, Brussard also says

(emphasis mine)
Sounds GREAT! I've invented a car that gets 200 miles to the gallon of dirty dishwater. All I need to do is scale it up from the idea that's in my head. Interested in investing?
 
Can a 100 MW give you 1g in space if your total weight is, say, 2000 tons? Don't know, and don't want to figure it out right now. Considering the title of Bussard's paper, I would think we'd at least be in the right ball park. If anybody wants to figure it out, please do so.

Absolutely not.

This takes some figuring, because power and thrust are not directly related. It all depends on the engine, and the specific impulse, or how much momentum you gain per unit mass of fuel.

Thrust is related to momentum. From Newton's second law, the total force is equal to d/dt(m v) = "m dot" v + m "v dot." If we assume the propellant escapes with a fixed exhaust velocity ve, then "v dot" is zero, and we are left with thrust T = "m dot" ve. "m dot" is the rate at which we consume propellant.

Power, on the other hand, is the rate of energy exertion. If we assume our engine, powered by the Bussard device, is 100% efficient, then all of this energy goes into the kinetic energy of the propellant -- the power is the rate of kinetic energy production. In other words, P = 0.5 "m dot" ve2.

So let's suppose we have a spacecraft of mass M = 2000 tons (a "ton" is hereby defined as 1000 kg; to hell with archaic units!) and 100 MW power generation. We also assume that the rate of propellant consumption is small compared to the mass of the spacecraft. We require it to accelerate at 1 g, or about 10 m/s.

Thrust, therefore, is equal to M g = 2 x 107 N. Thus "m dot" ve = 2 x 107 N.

Substituting this in for power, we get P = 100 MW = 0.5 (2 x 107 N) (ve). Rearranging, we get:

ve = 100 MW / 107 N = 10 m/s​

That should be our first warning sign -- the exhaust gas speed is not very fast. Similarly, we find that the rate of propellant consumption needed is quite high, "m dot" = 2 x 106 kg / s. In other words, at such a low power level, the spacecraft will consume its entire mass in only one second to produce one g. This spacecraft has a specific impulse Isp = T / ("m dot" g) = 1 second.

This is math's way of telling you your idea will never work. At such a low power level, this engine cannot possibly produce 1 g usefully. It has no hope whatsoever to ever get off the ground.

---

In orbit, however, we don't need such high acceleration, and we can tolerate lower power consumption. A Bussard device is likely to be harnessed to an ion propulsion system of some kind. Rather than force an acceleration, let's instead pick an exhaust gas speed, and see what kind of acceleration we can expect.

Ion engines have exhaust speeds anywhere from about 3,000 m/s for traditional thrusters, up to 300,000 m/s for VASIMIR, still under development. VASIMIR is a pretty good fit to our needs -- it is a variable specific impulse drive. For a given power level, you can trade whether you want lower thrust, but efficient use of propellant (a high Isp), or if you need higher thrust and can afford to burn propellant (at low Isp). This tradeoff exists because thrust is linear with exhaust velocity, but energy scales with the square of velocity, and in an ion engine it is the energy, usually electrically generated, that is the limiting factor.

Let's consider these two extremes of ve. VASIMIR is about 60-80% efficient; let's keep it at 100% just to keep everything comparable to each other.

At 3,000 m/s, a power level of 100 MW gives us an "m dot" of about 22 kg/s, for a total thrust of 66.7 kN. This much thrust pushes our 2000 ton spacecraft at (66700 N) / (2,000,000 kg) = 0.033 m/s2, or 0.033 g. That doesn't sound like much. However, the mass consumption rate is much more reasonable. If we suppose our spacecraft is 10% propellant, then we'd be able to keep up this acceleration for about 2.5 hours, for a total delta-V of about 3 km/s. That's respectable for an upper stage, particularly for a mere 10% propellant fraction.

The other extreme, 300,000 m/s, gives us an "m dot" that's 10,000 times smaller, or 0.0022 kg/s. But it also gives us a total thrust 100 times smaller, i.e. 667 N, or only 0.00033 g. That's not enough to notice.

But. We can keep up this rate of acceleration 10,000 times as long -- nearly three years! -- using the same assumptions as above. Now our total delta-V is over three hundred kilometers per second, or about 1% the speed of light. Not bad at all.

Of course, if you're willing to launch a 2000 ton spacecraft, there are other options you should consider. We also haven't solved how to get 2000 tons in orbit in the first place, which is going to be nearly insurmountable.

Rather than focus on 2000 ton spacecraft, this device would be much more useful if it could be scaled to, say, 20 tons, as in the reactor section of the JIMO concept or enough to fit in the payload bay of the Shuttle. Scaling it even smaller, say 1 ton, would be better still. But it's not clear this can be done.

Like I said on the first page, miniaturization is the key. If it can't be shrunk, it's not going to be of much value to spaceflight.

(According to http://www.frontiernet.net/~docbob/shuttle.htm, total weight at liftoff is 4.5 million pounds; subtract 1 million pounds of solid propellant, 603 tons liquid O2, 101 tons liquid hydrogen to get about 3 million pounds in outer space)

Your arithmetic is way off. The "dry weight" of the STS stack is about 215 tons, plus about 25 tons cargo and 10 tons consumables, such as fuel for maneuvering and re-entry and air. You've only counted the solid propellant in one SRB, and I think you substituted 1,000 pounds per ton.

Rockets in general have a "propellant fraction" of about 70-85%, i.e. 70-85% is fuel that gets burned just getting the rest to orbit. The Shuttle is high at about 88%, but it's not a fair comparison because the Shuttle also includes a highly complex re-entry system, something no dumb booster has.

To compare the above exercise to the Shuttle, each SRB burns through 49,900 kg of solid propellant in about 110 seconds, and the three SSME's burn about 735 tons of LOX and H2 in 520 seconds. The Shuttle has an aggregate Isp of about 300 seconds. At ~ 3 MJ/kg for the solid propellant and 15.9 MJ/kg for the liquids, the 2,000 ton STS exerts about 49.5 GW of power at liftoff, to generate about 1.5 g.

This is about 500 times as much power as the Bussard generator you proposed, for slightly higher acceleration, of a similarly sized vehicle. 100 MW just isn't going to cut it.

* a tour bus - maybe we've finally got a way to get rid of Gravy!


I strongly suggest that those who need so much help shouldn't make such obnoxious remarks. Rather than try to get rid of him, perhaps you should listen to what he has to say.

For additional reading, this junior-high school level treatment may be of some interest, courtesy our friends at NASA Glenn. Happy learning.
 

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