the ever growing vampire community

[fuelair]

But could they survive in cities like the C.H.U.D.s do?




As far as the "vampires" go, with this whole "draining psychic energy" thing... haven't they considered the possibility they're just boring?

Nope - but while they were still alive, they could make Bud the C.H.U.D. scream like a little girl !!!

 

[Langis]

I wonder what Simon Belmont would do...

 

[ponderingturtle]

I've been biting my tongue () as I read this thread last night, but as someone who knows a little bit about the actual history of vampires and the 20th Century goth/subculture differentiation between them, I have to wonder how many self described "vampires" try to emulate Nosferatu. Do any of them try and emulate the balding, dissicated, horn-eared, ugly violator, muderer and ghoul of actual vampire mythology or do they think they're all Frank Langella seducing people? Do any of them not brush their teeth so they develop the foul stench of dead flesh on their breaths? Do any of them impale victims by their rectums over a stake and have dinner while they breathe their last? Do any of them bathe in the blood of their victims or have naked virgins frozen with water in their courtyard?

Vampire sub-culture belongs with Wicca and Scientology in terms of utter rediculousness when it comes to the fact that your parent or grandparent could have had a beer with the person responsible for the advent of those particular lifestyles (and I'm using "lifestyle" loosely). Hello, ****heads, Bella Legosi was a character actor, not an actual vampire.

And if this isn't an irony most skeptics would find delicious... I was listening to Art Bell one night and he had a caller who described himself as a vampire. Art asked him what were the characteristics of vampires. The caller said they were intelligent, sensitive, intuitive, etc. Art asked him something like "just like you?" When the caller responded in the affirmative, Art cut him off and thanked him for the call.

If Art friggin' Bell thinks your claims are a joke, how do you think real skeptics feel about them?

I am not sure that there is no historic basis for the sexy sexual vampire. They just might be labeled as different things, but the succubus, siren and so on. As for deformity being a sign of evil character, I do not find that a compelling meme.

 

[krelnik]

I was unaware of what is described in the OP until recently when I started researching my website "what's the harm". I ran across some cases where some of these folks have gotten themselves in trouble with the law:

http://whatstheharm.net/vampires.html

If you know of other cases like these, please send them to me! You can email them to SUBMIT "at" whatstheharm "dot" net.

Thanks!

 

[dirtywick]

I was unaware of what is described in the OP until recently when I started researching my website "what's the harm". I ran across some cases where some of these folks have gotten themselves in trouble with the law:

http://whatstheharm.net/vampires.html

If you know of other cases like these, please send them to me! You can email them to SUBMIT "at" whatstheharm "dot" net.

Thanks!

You should look into the Rod Ferrell case.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

As for your comment about wiccan... I know a few, and they seem pretty balanced and reasonable people to me. I admit to have met a few fluffy bunnies when wicca was all the rage, but somehow they seem to have found more interresting beliefs to play with as they grew older.

What does that have to do with the fact that, like Scientology and the sexy vampire, it was "conjured up" in the 20th Century?

I am not sure that there is no historic basis for the sexy sexual vampire. They just might be labeled as different things, but the succubus, siren and so on.

If you have any evidence I'll change my stance, but I'm not familiar with any. Sirens and Succubi aren't vampires. If we include any being that lured people to their doom or visited them in their dreams we'd have to include Will O' Wisps and Night Hags... neither very sexy or sexual.

As for deformity being a sign of evil character, I do not find that a compelling meme.

Where did I say that? I was referring specifically to vampires prior to their 20th Century re-imagining.

 

[blauregen]

What does that have to do with the fact that, like Scientology and the sexy vampire, it was "conjured up" in the 20th Century?

Admittedly Wicca is - like modern means of mass transportation - a product of the 20th century. Whether it is ridiculous depends likely on your view of religion in general.

If you have any evidence I'll change my stance, but I'm not familiar with any. Sirens and Succubi aren't vampires. If we include any being that lured people to their doom or visited them in their dreams we'd have to include Will O' Wisps and Night Hags... neither very sexy or sexual.

If we restrict Vampires to bloodsucking entities and follow Montague Summers, as the leading 19th century authority in this field, in the premise that being undead isn't mandatory for vampirism, the scottish Baobhan Sith and the greek Lamia would probably qualify. It stands out that pretty and sensual vampires are apparently all female.

 

[Graham Ross]

When I was in high school one of the guys there has custom fangs made for himself which he wore all the time. It was really really nerdy!

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

Admittedly Wicca is - like modern means of mass transportation - a product of the 20th century. Whether it is ridiculous depends likely on your view of religion in general.

It is rediculous, all the more so when the grandparents of practicioners might have had a beer with the founder.

If we restrict Vampires to bloodsucking entities and follow Montague Summers, as the leading 19th century authority in this field, in the premise that being undead isn't mandatory for vampirism, the scottish Baobhan Sith and the greek Lamia would probably qualify. It stands out that pretty and sensual vampires are apparently all female.

I had always thought Lamias, like Harpys were, shall we say, less than attractive. I'll have to check more, but if all the examples we're finding are female, why are all the media archetypes which gave rise to contemporary "vampirism" male (excepting Hammer films of course )?

 

[soylent]

Sorry, but that's still not nearly as creepy as furries.

 

[blauregen]

It is rediculous, all the more so when the grandparents of practicioners might have had a beer with the founder.

Wouldn't this imply that age lends respectability to religion?

I had always thought Lamias, like Harpys were, shall we say, less than attractive. I'll have to check more, but if all the examples we're finding are female, why are all the media archetypes which gave rise to contemporary "vampirism" male (excepting Hammer films of course )?

The Mythology about Lamias ranges (from a cursory read) from the more monstrous snake/woman-hybrids to seductresses of young men by means of beauty. The suave, seductive male vampire of modern times is - in my opinion - a product of Anne Rice's interpretation of Bram Stoker's Dracula as the best known piece of literature about it. Stoker introduced Dracula as an old man with gentlemanly manners, not as a half-decayed monster living in a tomb, which shifted the public perception of vampires towards a human appearance.

As for Anne Rice: You can't have an old man with pointy teeth as the protagonist of modern romantic literature. It wouldn't sell.

 

[fuelair]

Wouldn't this imply that age lends respectability to religion?



The Mythology about Lamias ranges (from a cursory read) from the more monstrous snake/woman-hybrids to seductresses of young men by means of beauty. The suave, seductive male vampire of modern times is - in my opinion - a product of Anne Rice's interpretation of Bram Stoker's Dracula as the best known piece of literature about it. Stoker introduced Dracula as an old man with gentlemanly manners, not as a half-decayed monster living in a tomb, which shifted the public perception of vampires towards a human appearance.

As for Anne Rice: You can't have an old man with pointy teeth as the protagonist of modern romantic literature. It wouldn't sell.

Actually, (long) before there was Anne Rice, there was Hammer films. They introduced/popularized seductive male vampires quite nicely - and others pulled from them.

 

[Miss Whiplash]

Actually, (long) before there was Anne Rice, there was Hammer films. They introduced/popularized seductive male vampires quite nicely - and others pulled from them.

Christopher Lee was sexy in a cape.

And let's not forget Barnabas Collins, America's first vampire. IIRC Anne Rice was a fan of Dark Shadows.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

Wouldn't this imply that age lends respectability to religion?

That would be attributing to me a position that I do not hold. I was a bit concerned about your apparent contrast of fluff bunnies vs. "real" Wiccans*, but I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt.

In that spirit, here's full disclosure on my part regarding religions and how long they've been around - I have seen no reason to accept any religion other than a sort of amorphous deism (I won't even capitalize it) conceptulizing a vague, distant clock-winder for the Universe. They all seem rediculous to me for various reasons, but I do tend to assign a greater rediculousness factor to religions of more recent advent. For the 20th Century, I left unlisted above Eckenkar, Church of Satan and the Unification Church. For the 19th Century, Mormonism and B'hai, yes, even peaceful tolerant B'hais. As we go back for major religions, cultural influences are rife in them so I can understand how they came to exist - Islam being about on par with Christianity. Even further back, Zoroastrianism and Hinduism are so enshrouded by time that I can understand people raised on those cultures adhering since their ancestors had done so for the last 2,500 years.

The time of advent issue aside, Wicca, since you singled it out, is dripping with woo. I have no problem with people who have a feminine deity concept and are nature lovers just as I have no problem with people who have a male deity concept and think he manifested himself for self-sacrifice to himself. It's all rediculous to me. My eye-rolling reflex kicks in when I hear about prayers to the Goddess being fulfilled or how a Book of Shadows contains majick (or whatever)** or claims about alternate archeology of a gynocratic Utopia ruined because the Khurgans took over Europe (see Gimbutas).

The Mythology about Lamias ranges (from a cursory read) from the more monstrous snake/woman-hybrids to seductresses of young men by means of beauty.

I only checked Wikipedia earlier and the representations of Lamias as beautiful snake/woman seductresses was only represented in 20th Cent. artwork. All the other references were to them being monstrous baby eaters/stealers/killers which isn't quite analagous to the contemporary "vampires" we're talking about. I need to look up ancient Greek representations of Lamias (or see them if someone else is willing to do the Google searches) before I will consider them analagous to contemporary "vampires".

The suave, seductive male vampire of modern times is - in my opinion - a product of Anne Rice's interpretation of Bram Stoker's Dracula as the best known piece of literature about it. Stoker introduced Dracula as an old man with gentlemanly manners, not as a half-decayed monster living in a tomb, which shifted the public perception of vampires towards a human appearance.

As for Anne Rice: You can't have an old man with pointy teeth as the protagonist of modern romantic literature. It wouldn't sell.

The concept in the visual media goes back to Bela Legosi back in the 30s, just a short time after Nosferatu, and continues through actors like the previously mentioned Frank Langella in the 80s, but includes Christopher Lee and the Hammer lesbian vampires from the 60s and 70s. Anne Rice is a product of the post goth-sensative vampire era resultant from those movies... unless you're trying to suggest there was a thriving underground vampire subculture prior to, say 1963?

Stoker started the re-imagining, but the sub-culture is an entirely 20th Century phenomena - and late 20th Century at that.

* I just want to be clear that this was an apparent contrast.
** Full disclosure, I purchased a BoS in an on-line auction for a Wiccan friend of mine.

 

[blauregen]

Actually, (long) before there was Anne Rice, there was Hammer films. They introduced/popularized seductive male vampires quite nicely - and others pulled from them.

You are right. She likely drew more form Hammer films' Dracula than from Stoker's.

 

[fuelair]

And re: UnrepentandS mention of Books of Shadows. Actually, they ARE full of Magic(majyck,magick). Of course, none of it works (any more than prayer) but they are full of it.*





Feel free to use that as a straight line!!

 

[blauregen]

Thank you for the clarification.

They all seem rediculous to me for various reasons, but I do tend to assign a greater rediculousness factor to religions of more recent advent.

Here we have to disagree. How long a religion has been perpetrated isn't a deciding factor for me in attributing 'ridiculousness' to it. That's more a matter of how the underlying philosophy seems detached from practical applicability and internal consistency, and what the cost of your religion in terms of restrictions, implausible claims and financial investment is.

My own position as an outsider regarding religion is that i recognize that many people obviously derive comfort and security from their religious beliefs as well as from their social affiliation to a religious group, and that this gain has to be set into a relation to your investment.

Wicca as a rather laid back, liberal and inexpensive religion is therefore to me a less ridiculous choice than for example Scientology ( expensive courses and lots of underpaid work ), Mormonism (tithe and a restrictive moral philosophy) or catholizism.

My eye-rolling reflex kicks in when I hear about prayers to the Goddess being fulfilled or how a Book of Shadows contains majick (or whatever)** or claims about alternate archeology of a gynocratic Utopia ruined because the Khurgans took over Europe (see Gimbutas).

I practiced long and hard to do an impressive, Spock-like raise of one eyebrow, followed by a long inquisitive look at the claimant if such claims are made in my presence. It often does the job of motivating them to put the claim into perspective. I rarely have opportunity to use it though.

But it seems you were at least spared from people claiming they were members of the most persecuted religion.

I don't disapprove of magic as a mental and spiritual discipline completely though. Projecting your psychological processes into a ritualistic and mythological framework to work with them, seems, depending on your disposition not worse than trying to get a grip through free association with your therapist. And to me doing a ritual and calling upon various mystical concepts with a few people looks a lot more entertaining and social.

I need to look up ancient Greek representations of Lamias (or see them if someone else is willing to do the Google searches) before I will consider them analagous to contemporary "vampires".

From the wikipedia-entry we have Keats poem 'Lamia', which apparently drew from a 17th century source and Philostratus' Life of Apollonius of Tyana as indicative of this interpretation.

Anne Rice is a product of the post goth-sensative vampire era resultant from those movies... unless you're trying to suggest there was a thriving underground vampire subculture prior to, say 1963?

Far from it. It actually is the timeframe in which the vampire-movement gained popularity and the image of the vampire perpetrated there, that causes me to suspect Anne Rice as the primary source. To me it seems as if it gained popularity in the late 1970's and 1980's, and the prefered vampire-image is closer to Lestat de Lioncourt than to Christopher Lee's impersonation of Dracula.

 

[ponderingturtle]

If you have any evidence I'll change my stance, but I'm not familiar with any. Sirens and Succubi aren't vampires. If we include any being that lured people to their doom or visited them in their dreams we'd have to include Will O' Wisps and Night Hags... neither very sexy or sexual.

The thing is that vampire is not a unified concept at all. Why would you so seperate a Succubi from a vampire? Is a being that requires to kill other and feed off their life energy a vampire or is it just those with the blood?

Where did I say that? I was referring specifically to vampires prior to their 20th Century re-imagining.

And focusing on the nature that many of them where repulsive as they where decomposing corpses.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Sorry, but that's still not nearly as creepy as furries.

I would say it depends on the individual. The degree of divorced from reality is what creeps me out. If it was just a sexual blood fetish it would be different.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Wouldn't this imply that age lends respectability to religion?

I would agree with that to a certain extent. Having a tradition with a lot of history behind it is something that feels more emotionally compelling to people. That is why for example when the Christmas tree was introduced to england and the US in the Victorian time it very quickly became thought of as an old tradition(it was just not theirs) because time adds weight to tradition.

As for wicka and such, I really don't understand why people find it emotionally compelling, it does not seem to have a strong individual claiming divine revelation or a long history.