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Dark matter and Dark energy

DanishDynamite

Penultimate Amazing
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Aug 10, 2001
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I've recently read somwhere that at most 4% of our Universe consists of regular matter as we know it. Some 26% consists of Dark Matter and some 70% consists of Dark Energy.

A) How are these numbers arrived at? How is the "Dark Energy" converted to matter?

B) What ever happened to the question of where all the anti-matter went?
 
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I've recently read somwhere that at most 4% of our Universe consists of regular matter as we know it. Some 26% consists of Dark Matter and some 70% consists of Dark Energy.

Correct.

A) How are these numbers arrived at?

Observations of the expansion rate of the universe and the motions of the galaxies within it allow us to deduce the matter and energy content of the universe, using Einstein's theory of gravity.

How is the "Dark Energy" converted to matter?

Huh? If you mean "compared", through E=mc^2.

B) What ever happened to the question of where all the anti-matter went?

It's still a question. There are some theories which work, but they rely on untested assumptions which may or may not be correct.
 
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I'd add that the 4% baryon fraction value (how much is 'normal' matter) comes from big bang nucleosynthesis results and measurements of the cosmic microwave background.
 
How is the "Dark Energy" converted to matter?

Dark Energy and Dark Matter share nothing in common but the word 'Dark'. Or rather, we don't know that they share anything. We still don't know enough about what either of them are to say much more. We only know of the effects they have on normal particles. Dark matter is the name given to the as-yet unknown source of gravity that is not accounted for by our traditional "matter and energy" (causing galaxies to rotate in unanticipated ways). Dark Energy is the name given to the force behind the apparent acceleration of the expansion of the universe (causing galaxy redshift from motion to not follow the Hubble constant). There are some hypotheses that postulate a connection between the two, but there are several that don't, and none have any experimental data distinguishing between them.
 
Dark Energy and Dark Matter share nothing in common but the word 'Dark'. Or rather, we don't know that they share anything. We still don't know enough about what either of them are to say much more. We only know of the effects they have on normal particles. Dark matter is the name given to the as-yet unknown source of gravity that is not accounted for by our traditional "matter and energy" (causing galaxies to rotate in unanticipated ways). Dark Energy is the name given to the force behind the apparent acceleration of the expansion of the universe (causing galaxy redshift from motion to not follow the Hubble constant).
I'd like to repeat the point that Sean Carroll makes here. Dark energy is not a force, it's another source of gravity. It's just that the result of this gravity is rather different from the gravity sourced by matter. Both dark energy and dark matter are an 'as-yet unknown source of gravity' but that's not to say that they're in any way related or behave in similar fashions.

Oh and the Hubble parameter isn't constant - if you want to talk about distance-redshift relations not following a constant Hubble parameter this applies to cosmologies without dark energy too, and if you want to talk about an evolving parameter then dark energy just modifies the way that parameter evolves, it doesn't make 'galaxy redshift from motion to not follow' it.
 
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B) What ever happened to the question of where all the anti-matter went?

This is completely separate from the rest of your post. For the purposes of mass and gravity calculations, anti-matter is regular matter. The 4% figure you quote includes anti-matter. The question of why there appears to be less anti-matter than we would expect is an interesting one, but has nothing to do with dark matter or dark energy.
 
Dark energy: The universe is being attracted to a magnet of some kind ( I say it is empty space itself that is the magnet) The closer we get, the faster we go
Dark Matter: Empty space has a mass caused by a particle on the Plank scale that I dub the Spacitron. The particle is creating space. Add up all the tiny masses and you have dark matter. Space is warped because the spacitrons are attracted by an objects gravity
Hey its just my theory and I ain't about to do the math to prove it
 
I'd like to repeat the point that Sean Carroll makes here. Dark energy is not a force, it's another source of gravity. It's just that the result of this gravity is rather different from the gravity sourced by matter. Both dark energy and dark matter are an 'as-yet unknown source of gravity' but that's not to say that they're in any way related or behave in similar fashions.

Sean Carroll said:
Cosmologists consider all kinds of crazy ideas in their efforts to account for dark energy, but in all the sensible theories I’ve heard of, it’s gravity that is the operative force.

In other words, it could be another source of gravity, but we're still not sure. He's simply discounting any 'theory' (by which he probably means hypothesis) that doesn't 'make sense', but we still don't have any evidence to distinguish between these competing hypotheses. He provides no reason for discounting the other hypotheses, he simply declares them 'insensible', nor does he bother to even mention what those other theories are.

Unless he is using a very broad use of the term 'Gravity'. Gravity is sometimes used as a catch-all for any apparent force that is proportional to the mass of the affected object. This causes accelerations to be independent of mass. One such use is to define the centrifugal force term of a rotating reference frame as a gravity field. However, this seems unlikely, as nearly half of the article is dedicated to the problems inherent in using overly broad, and commonly misunderstood, terms like 'energy' and 'dimensions'.
 
In other words, it could be another source of gravity, but we're still not sure. He's simply discounting any 'theory' (by which he probably means hypothesis) that doesn't 'make sense', but we still don't have any evidence to distinguish between these competing hypotheses. He provides no reason for discounting the other hypotheses, he simply declares them 'insensible', nor does he bother to even mention what those other theories are.

They are things like MOND. They don't make a lot of sense, and they are also pretty conclusively ruled out by various experiments and observations (at least the ones I know of, which is a fair number).

Unless he is using a very broad use of the term 'Gravity'. Gravity is sometimes used as a catch-all for any apparent force that is proportional to the mass of the affected object. This causes accelerations to be independent of mass. One such use is to define the centrifugal force term of a rotating reference frame as a gravity field. However, this seems unlikely, as nearly half of the article is dedicated to the problems inherent in using overly broad, and commonly misunderstood, terms like 'energy' and 'dimensions'.

He means the force mediated by a spin-2 massless field coupled covariantly to the stress-energy tensor of matter.
 
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dark matter

when you can't make a theory work, make something up!

[crushing sarcasm]
Yeah, you're right - astrophysicists are SO dumb!! Not exactly rocket scientists, now are they?? :wackylaugh:
If only they would listen to you - after all, haven't you already demonstrated your thorough knowledge and amazing intuition for physics in so many other threads here?!? :D :D
[/crushing sarcasm]

The facts are that people have tried every alternative theory they can think of, and (at least so far) all have failed to explain the data. Not only that, but DM has now been directly observed via gravitational lensing of a collision of two galaxy clusters, as well as through three or four independent indirect checks.

It's almost certainly out there, and actually I don't find its existence particularly surprising. Isn't a bit arrogant to expect that we've already discovered every form of matter in the universe? Why should we be so lucky?

Dark energy is another matter - that's much more surprising, and there is something profound and not yet understood behind it.
 
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In fact, dark matter can be described as merely matter that doesn't shine under its own light. Our planet could be dark matter, since it is practically invisible from a distance.

However, I believe that it is now considered unlikely for planets like ours to make up anything but a small percentage of dark matter.
 
In other words, it could be another source of gravity, but we're still not sure. He's simply discounting any 'theory' (by which he probably means hypothesis) that doesn't 'make sense', but we still don't have any evidence to distinguish between these competing hypotheses. He provides no reason for discounting the other hypotheses, he simply declares them 'insensible', nor does he bother to even mention what those other theories are.
I'm not Sean, so I don't know what he meant by that. But by theories that make sense he probably means ones:
a) not blatantly made up by crackpots who don't know the observations they need to explain, or
b) those without unsavoury properties (if a theory predicts tachyons or ghosts you might disfavour it for example) [think that's an appropriate link, ages since I looked into ghosts to be honest]
c) those too complex - have too many free parameters, bells and whistles attached - it's better to minimally modify your model to fit observations
You don't actually need evidence that doesn't fit a model to choose between models. You can simply chose the simpler and stronger one as your currently favoured.

Unless he is using a very broad use of the term 'Gravity'. Gravity is sometimes used as a catch-all for any apparent force that is proportional to the mass of the affected object. This causes accelerations to be independent of mass. One such use is to define the centrifugal force term of a rotating reference frame as a gravity field. However, this seems unlikely, as nearly half of the article is dedicated to the problems inherent in using overly broad, and commonly misunderstood, terms like 'energy' and 'dimensions'.
He's using it in a cosmological context. He therefore either means general relativity or a direct substitute for it.

arthwollipot - it'd be an understatement to say it's considered unlikely. There's very strong constraints on that 4% figure from the start of the thread. That's saying that only a small proportion of the total matter can be in the form of everyday atoms like stars or planets. We know that it's something we've not seen before that has essentially no interaction with light - it can't be merely everyday stuff that's not emitting light. It's got to be something else.

sol invictus is as correct as ever. 'It's almost certainly out there, and actually I don't find its existence particularly surprising.' particularly is something I agree with. Why should you find such matter surprising when we've already found matter that behaves in much the same way, and was similarly motivated by observations that didn't match expectations (I'm talking about neutrinos)? We've made the jump from wanting to preserve one important part of physics (conservation of momentum and energy) to supposing there was an undetected particle before, and been right. Is it really so dangerous to do the same for another important part of physics (gravity), at least until there's an explanation that fits the facts better?
 
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In fact, dark matter can be described as merely matter that doesn't shine under its own light. Our planet could be dark matter, since it is practically invisible from a distance.

However, I believe that it is now considered unlikely for planets like ours to make up anything but a small percentage of dark matter.

Yes. There are two general types of possible dark matter. The first is MACHOs - MAssive Compact Halo Objects. This basically means big lumps of matter like planets, brown dwarfs, dark nebulae and so on. Perfectly normal things that we just can't see from here because they're too small or too dark. We know that such objects must exist because it is obvious that we can't actually see everything. However, as you say, these have pretty much been ruled out as a major source of dark matter. They certainly make up some of it, maybe even a few percent, but they just can't explain the amount of matter needed or, even more damning, the distribution that must exist.

The second type is WIMPs - Weakly Interacting Massive Particles. The "massive" here is used in a different sense meaing particles with large mass, rather than large clumps of matter. We know they must be massive compared to the particles we know about because otherwise we would have already seen them in particle accelerators. Neutrinos were initially thought to be a good candidate for this, since they are are definitley weakly interacting and the discovery that they have mass was big news. However, although it is difficult to measure their exact mass, we can put limits on what it could be, and given those limits there just aren't enough of them to make up more than a very small fraction of dark matter.

There is also again the problem of distribution. Most dark matter appear to be what is known as "Cold dark matter". This means it doesn't have much energy and seems to mostly gather in one place, such as halos around galaxies. Neutrinos are very much "Hot dark matter", meaning they almost always have lots of energy and would be very difficult, if not impossible, to contain in the observed halos.

It's also worth noting that the "weakly" doesn't necessarily mean "not strong", it is often used to mean they interact only through the weak nuclear force (and gravity of course). However, since it's only a qualitative description for a hypothetical class of particles it doesn't really matter exactly what it means.
 
They are things like MOND. They don't make a lot of sense, and they are also pretty conclusively ruled out by various experiments and observations (at least the ones I know of, which is a fair number).

He means the force mediated by a spin-2 massless field coupled covariantly to the stress-energy tensor of matter.

Are you talking about Mark matter, or Dark Energy? Because what you're describing fits Dark Matter, but both I and Sean Carroll are talking about Dark Energy. It's easy to get confused, because so many people in this thread are talking about them in the same breath.

The facts are that people have tried every alternative theory they can think of, and (at least so far) all have failed to explain the data. Not only that, but DM has now been directly observed via gravitational lensing of a collision of two galaxy clusters, as well as through three or four independent indirect checks.

It's almost certainly out there, and actually I don't find its existence particularly surprising. Isn't a bit arrogant to expect that we've already discovered every form of matter in the universe? Why should we be so lucky?

Dark energy is another matter - that's much more surprising, and there is something profound and not yet understood behind it.

Ah! So we're really agreeing. Dark Matter couples through the well known gravity. Dark Energy's method is not yet understood.

I was objecting to Sean Carroll's "Dark Energy is obviously just a source of gravity, nothing else makes sense" attitude. Were you objecting to that, or were you thinking I was disagreeing about Dark Matter?
 
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