Israel will allow fuel, medicine into Gaza - official

[The Fool]

T-F once again:

The higest ranking officer of the Israeli Security Forces (Shin Bet) Yuval Diskin just announced today to the entire Israeli cabinet that he has proof positive.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/950571.html (already linked earlier, but I'll give this another run, just for the benefit of our resident die-hard skeptic, The Fool)

Nothing about cranes in there web...Not a crumb....nix...zip....not a mention. How does this support your claim that cranes were used to lift boxes of rockets across the border. Nobody is doubting the smuggling of weapons has happened in the past and will continue to happen.

So, OK, T-F, what do you think happened? Let's hear YOUR version.

Pretty much what is reported to have happened by reputable news services....and pretty much not what is reported in unsupported claims on forums by partisan members who can't back them with any evidence.

As for the distribution of cash, I can't find a single link anymore, I just remember reading it a few days ago, and I will hereby withdraw my claim, pending my finding any real evidence which would support it.
No big deal, it's not important, in the overall scheme of things. HAMAS may or may not have distributed money to the people of gaza in order to get them to turn out by the hundreds of thousands, but that question is moot. The real focus should be -- "Now What?"

the right thing to do....

 

[webfusion]

T-F, all you are doing here is mental masturbation.

Your entire series of postings here is completely out of line. The HAMAS took the opportunity of causing an intentional breach in the border, for the express purpose of re-arming and preparing for a continuation of their unending jihad war against the jews, at the behest of Iran, and with the aim of increasing attacks and causing as much damage to Israeli cites within range of their rockets as possible, in complete coordination with Hezbollah to the North (also Iranian-backed).

HAMAS for sure used cranes to lift those heavy cases / crates of rockets and arms, and there's nothing you can say to convince us otherwise.

That breach had nothing at all to do with "humanitarian crisis" (a crisis HAMAS themselves manufactured and benefits from).

For you to sit there and deride the absolute facts of the matter is a shame to us all here at JREF.

But, that's typical for The Fool, and you should only count your lucky stars that it's not YOUR city under rocket barrages from maniacidal islamic terrorists.

 

[The Fool]

T-F, all you are doing here is mental masturbation.

Its called requiring evidence before accepting a claim as fact. You seem to be throwing a tantrum because your claims are challenged. Its a tough world web, specially when you post the claims on a skeptics forum.

Your entire series of postings here is completely out of line.

when someone demands evidence for your claims your approach seems to be an ad hom attack and a restatement of the claim.....

HAMAS for sure used cranes to lift those heavy cases / crates of rockets and arms, and there's nothing you can say to convince us otherwise.

Hmmm...now you have used the words "for sure" maybe I will have to accept your claim as true. You also use the word "us" but you are the only person on this planet I have seen or heard make this claim. Some members here who want to support you have gone as far as to say your claim is possibly true....and they are absolutely correct. It is possibly true, but zip evidence is still a problem.

For you to sit there and deride the absolute facts of the matter is a shame to us all here at JREF.

hmmmm....not only are they "for sure" now but you have proclaimed them "absolute facts" the body of evidence grows....from zero to zero plus another claim they are facts.

But, that's typical for The Fool

its typical of a skeptic site to ask for evidence. Actually that is not strictly true all the time ...sometimes some members build up enough credability that assumptions are made by many other members that if they state something as a fact that they can back it up. sometimes members behavior, being loose with the facts, causes that assumption of credability to be damaged...its sad.

 

[yairhol]

since crates have been used before to try to smuggle weapons from Egypt into Gaza, I don't see why in the recent opening of the Egyptian border the same kind of smuggling wouldn't take place.
It's a very reasonable assumption. And if not by crates then by cars or other means.

 

[The Fool]

since crates have been used before to try to smuggle weapons from Egypt into Gaza, I don't see why in the recent opening of the Egyptian border the same kind of smuggling wouldn't take place.
It's a very reasonable assumption. And if not by crates then by cars or other means.

you are welcome to your own opinions yairhol....but....you are not welcome to your own facts. Have you any evidence that those cranes that were there when this thing started were lifting crates of rockets? If not, I'm quite happy to add you to this list of people that think it could possibly be true. But thats not webs claim so getting on that list is not really helping web. He wants people to join his "us" list....that list is for people who accept that it happened "for sure" and is an "absolute fact"...not sure what you would need to join that sort of list....maybe faith?

 

[yairhol]

TheFool, are you saying that it is not a reasonable assumption to think that ammunition and armery were smuggled to Gaza via those cranes?

 

[The Fool]

TheFool, are you saying that it is not a reasonable assumption to think that ammunition and armery were smuggled to Gaza via those cranes?

You can think what you like, you just can't turn assumptions into facts without evidence. I happen to think that of all the possible ways that Hamas could smuggle weapons hauling them in plain view up through the air using cranes is rather laughable....not very clever smuggling.

Its a reasonable assumption if 1. you think its reasonable 2. its an assumption. You think that its a reasonable assumption and you are perfectly entitled to do that. You describe it as a reasonable assumption so thats fair enough....

now.....

Is it reasonable to describe it as a fact? Why do I have patiently refute page after page of spin and diversion that is aimed at converting an assumption using zero evidence into a fact. Is there anyone else who cares about the distinction between assumptions and facts?

 

[webfusion]

You seem to be throwing a tantrum because your claims are challenged.

Nope.

I'm disgusted because the evidence I painstakingly gathered is rejected by "skeptics" like you, who have their heads stuck into the ground.

HAMAS didn't have to "smuggle" in crates of weaponry, T-F, once the breach had been accomplished, because they were in control of the entire Philadelphi Route (12 km.)
During the day, for the cameras, these cranes were photographed, by the assembled useful idiots of the media, lifting over livestock and "motorcycle crates" --- while at 3am, in the dead of night, tons of weaponry went by the same exact route, using cranes lifting the crates onto flatbed trucks.

Here, let me illustrate how this works, just for you ----

Now, I think we're done here.

 

[yairhol]

Nice illustration although I think you could have spent more time making the crane less pointy.

 

[mrbaracuda]

Looks like a scorpion. I say a subliminal message is at work here!

 

[Mycroft]

I'm sure they have nothing better to do than plan ways to thwart the blockade...to smuggle weapons, to fight and kill. But members here have to realise that you can't just Jazz up the story from day to day with dubious claims dressed up as facts.

Hehe. How about jazzing up your opponents claims to make them easier to argue against? You gonna say that's wrong too?

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

Aren't you keeping up with this thread? Israel is an evil and inhumanitarian country breaking every international law known to man and making a living hell for the poor Palestinians who are just trying to live their lives peacefully with its neighboring countries.
Please, we've been through this before in several threads already. Come up with something original will ya?

Thanks in advance,
signed: one of the 7 million evil people.

Thank you for confirming that you are only interested in making claims up. I suggest that if you want to be taken seriously that you actually quote people's actual words instead of making them up. Your contempt for the law is legion.

This was bound to come up sooner or later. It is WE (Israel) who are the terrorists. Of course.

You see The Fool, wasn't I correct all alone about this point?

Israel is engaged in the deliberate policy of collectively punishing an entire group of people. Are you now trying to claim this isn't true? What is it you are trying to say? If you say you are all alone so be it.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

It amazes me how you keep supporting everything that is pro Palestinian. Why not point E.J.Armstrong to the beginning of this thread so he can get all of his questioned answered so we wouldn't have to go into all of this again? It just calls to be cynical when such old points as Armstrong's are brought up again. ...

Evidence for your claim. You have a habit of making things up. You won't be taken serioulsy until you provide evidence.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

What kind of lame dodge is this? I looked at the page and didn't see anything about blockades. Obviously (unless you're just blowing smoke) you see something I don't.

So point it out already. Make your argument. Geez, it's like pulling teeth just getting you to make a case to support your assertions.

This from someone who refused point blank to justify his assertion - what was it two years ago and counting?
You just cannot make this stuff up.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

You can think what you like, you just can't turn assumptions into facts without evidence. I happen to think that of all the possible ways that Hamas could smuggle weapons hauling them in plain view up through the air using cranes is rather laughable....not very clever smuggling.

Its a reasonable assumption if 1. you think its reasonable 2. its an assumption. You think that its a reasonable assumption and you are perfectly entitled to do that. You describe it as a reasonable assumption so thats fair enough....

now.....

Is it reasonable to describe it as a fact? Why do I have patiently refute page after page of spin and diversion that is aimed at converting an assumption using zero evidence into a fact. Is there anyone else who cares about the distinction between assumptions and facts?

Webfusion and providing facts. Mycroft and justifying assertions. Yairhol and not making things up. Don't make me laugh. They just might be taken seriously some time when they can get around to providing a factoid or twain - oh and stop putting words in others words etc. Until then ...

 

[FireGarden]

By the way, I would take an educated guess that Israeli Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai was the quoted source for the article you linked to above, FireGarden.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,325091,00.html

Thanks for the link.

 

[FireGarden]

While Hamas wants to maintain control of Gaza, Hamas is responsible for Gaza.

Are you comparing Hamas' ability to control Gaza's borders to Israel and Egypt's?

Egypt seems to have chosen to close the border, even with people on the 'wrong' side of the border:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7226854.stm

 

[Mycroft]

Are you comparing Hamas' ability to control Gaza's borders to Israel and Egypt's?

You are moving the goalposts. Were were talking about controlling Gaza, and now you change it to controlling Gaza's borders.

But since you raise the new topic, yeah I would say the ability of Hamas to restrict imports/exports along any of the Gaza borders to be roughly comparable to the government on the other side of that same border. That is to say, either side has the right to say "no", or at least they should have.

Except for Egypt, apparently. Hamas has a demonstrated ability to move people and goods across that border, even against Egypt's wishes. It seems Hamas sometimes will take away Egypt's right to say "no." One could argue that gives Hamas greater control of the Egypt/Gaza border than Egypt has.

And realistically, it is within Hamas' power to end hostilities with Israel. It is Hamas that continues to make the choice that lobbing a few rockets over the border each day is more important than the well being of their people.

 

[yairhol]

Report: Long-range missiles smuggled into Gaza


Palestinian operatives say breached Gaza border enables smuggling of RPG, anti-tank, Katyusha rockets into Strip; warns Hamas may resume 'height of intifada'

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3504006,00.html

 

[webfusion]

Yair, who are you trying to kid here?

That article quotes unnamed "operatives" and has nothing in it about cranes.


By the way, the breach in the border may have been done just so that the HAMAS was able to get in a large shipment of Nur missiles (made in Iran).
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2008/me_iran_02_04.asp

The shipment was sent from Lebanon to Egypt's Sinai Peninsula in late 2007. These crates of weapons were ultimately moved across the border in January when the Philadelphi Road was opened, according to Israeli Intelligence.