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Failure mode in WTC towers

Of course they're going to pancake. The only question is how evenly; that is, how much other debris gets in the way, what size fragments they break into and how much those fragments get churned up in the debris mass instead of staying in layers.

You seem to have an unusual definition of a "pancake" collapse. The one I am familiar with requires floors to fall in large pieces and results in stacks. If the floor breaks into pieces that are too small, stacking does not result and the collapse in not characterized by "pancaking".

NIST ruled out a "pancake" collapse in general, not just initiation by "pancaking":

[FAQ #2]

NIST’s findings do not support the “pancake theory” of collapse,
which is premised on a progressive failure of the floor systems in the WTC towers (the composite floor system—that connected the core columns and the perimeter columns—consisted of a grid of steel “trusses” integrated with a concrete slab; see diagram below). Instead, the NIST investigation showed conclusively that the failure of the inwardly bowed perimeter columns initiated collapse and that the occurrence of this inward bowing required the sagging floors to remain connected to the columns and pull the columns inwards. Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon.


http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm
 
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I think you are exaggerating the eccentricity and overloading of individual columns. The beams would have caused the loads to bridge just as you saw on the perimeter where the spandrels did that job. Do you think the load of the 35 missing perimeter columns was applied to just the columns on either side of the gash?


I don't know, although NIST probably has a pretty good idea, having done extensive analysis of the forces on the frame after the impact damage and after subsequent fires.

There were only 20% maximum of the core columns destroyed and or heavily damaged and they were somewhat interspersed at least in the North Tower. In fact, the collapse in the North Tower began on the 98th floor which had lost almost no columns.


Without a real analysis, there's no way to gauge the significance of losing certain columns. What matters isn't the average strengths and average loads, or the "percent" of columns destroyed. it's the actual load on each individual member, because unless every single member can withstand its load, you don't have a static situation and you could have the start of a progressive collapse.

You're the one who's claimed to have shown a rationale (or did you call it a proof?) why the buildings should not have fallen, based on comparing total (remaining) column strengths to total weight. I'm pointing out that that's not adequate evidence that you have a static structure. The totals don't mean anything. Can one get the structural plan for a large building approved based only on comparing the total cross-section of the columns at each floor with the total weight of the building above them, rather than an actual complete analysis of the forces on all parts of the frame? I sure hope not.

I am curious as to who these other experts are that you refer to concerning calculation of the safety factors. Where can I find their work?


NCSTAR, for one. They seem to have concluded that the structural safety factors in the wtc towers were not sufficient to prevent their collapse under the conditions of collision damage and fire that developed on 9/11. Perhaps you could point out where you think they made their errors in their input data or calculations?

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
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The disingenuous twoofer "Sizzler" started a thread positing an alternate universe where fantasists are in control. R.Mackey listed five refutations of Twoofer dogma, one of them being extremely pertinent to this thread:

"2. Video clearly shows that at the onset of failure, perimeter columns buckled inward, precipitating the collapse. This requires structural connections to remain intact rather than be blasted apart. No one has even proposed any way to replicate this with explosives."

What do the faux "engineers" have to say?
 
You seem to have an unusual definition of a "pancake" collapse. The one I am familiar with requires floors to fall in large pieces and results in stacks. If the floor breaks into pieces that are too small, stacking does not result and the collapse in not characterized by "pancaking".

NIST ruled out a "pancake" collapse in general, not just initiation by "pancaking":

[FAQ #2]

NIST’s findings do not support the “pancake theory” of collapse,
which is premised on a progressive failure of the floor systems in the WTC towers (the composite floor system—that connected the core columns and the perimeter columns—consisted of a grid of steel “trusses” integrated with a concrete slab; see diagram below). Instead, the NIST investigation showed conclusively that the failure of the inwardly bowed perimeter columns initiated collapse and that the occurrence of this inward bowing required the sagging floors to remain connected to the columns and pull the columns inwards. Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon.


http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm


I disagree. In context, it's clear that this passage is talking about the pancake theory of collapse initiation (which is the only "pancake theory" that has been publicly discussed at a level NIST would be aware of). Remember that NIST only studied and modeled collapse initiation (which IIRC many conspiracy theorists find very suspicious), so why would they be inserting comments about things that happened once the global collapse was underway? The sentence, "Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon" applies to prior causation of global collapse initiation. It does not mean that during the collapse, all the floors managed to fall without impacting other floors, which is patently impossible, or that no floor section detached from its vertical columns while the columns were momentarily still intact at that floor level.

Perhaps I am using "pancake" in a slightly unusual way (others can correct me on this, if so), but for me the arrangement of the debris or size of the pieces once things stop moving isn't the defining characteristic of pancaking. The relevant characteristic of pancaking, and what I'm referring to when I use the term, is the progressive detachment of floors from still-standing vertical supports, due to the impact of the mass of already-detached floors falling from above. And from the available photographic and videographic evidence (and keeping in mind that I am speculating as requested, not presenting the results of any rigorous analysis), that's exactly what appears to be happening at the lowest layers of the "collapse front" at least at some stages of the collapses.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
I disagree. In context, it's clear that this passage is talking about the pancake theory of collapse initiation (which is the only "pancake theory" that has been publicly discussed at a level NIST would be aware of). Remember that NIST only studied and modeled collapse initiation (which IIRC many conspiracy theorists find very suspicious), so why would they be inserting comments about things that happened once the global collapse was underway? The sentence, "Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon" applies to prior causation of global collapse initiation. It does not mean that during the collapse, all the floors managed to fall without impacting other floors, which is patently impossible, or that no floor section detached from its vertical columns while the columns were momentarily still intact at that floor level.

Exactly. It's about initiation.

Perhaps I am using "pancake" in a slightly unusual way (others can correct me on this, if so), but for me the arrangement of the debris or size of the pieces once things stop moving isn't the defining characteristic of pancaking. The relevant characteristic of pancaking, and what I'm referring to when I use the term, is the progressive detachment of floors from still-standing vertical supports, due to the impact of the mass of already-detached floors falling from above. And from the available photographic and videographic evidence (and keeping in mind that I am speculating as requested, not presenting the results of any rigorous analysis), that's exactly what appears to be happening at the lowest layers of the "collapse front" at least at some stages of the collapses.

You're right, you are using it wrong. Pancake collapse is typical in concrete-steel(rebar) reinforced construction. The entire level comes crashing down on top of the lower level, on top of the next, on top of the next. It is slang for a "progressive" collapse found in concrete-steel reinforced buildings due to its appearance after the collapse.

I find the best way not to confuse people(the ones that want to be confused) is to use the term "progressive floor collapse" instead of pancaking.

I never thought anyone would get to correct Myriad for using slang, least of all me! ;)
 
Fully-fueled commercial airliners slammed into the Twin Towers at high speeds. The impacts dislodged fireproofing and caused widespread fires that led to the inward bowing of external columns that everyone observes on the videos. Instead of the endless tap dancing, why doesn't your side explain why the buildings should NOT have collapsed?
I would probably believe it if I hadn't heard about Da Third Tower, because 2<>3
 
I would probably believe it if I hadn't heard about Da Third Tower, because 2<>3
And the conditions in the third tower that should have prevented its collapse, thereby leading you to believe that it was not destroyed by fire, were what?

Remember, speculation<>fact.
 
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I am still confused about the collapse initiation - the buckled columns below the solid upper block. On the videos on Internet, I see the upper block collapsing into itself, telescoping, getting 50% shorter, while the visible columns below the upper block are still intact. I am told that the columns actually buckled on the other side, but when I look at a video from the other side, same thing! No buckled columns below the upper block!

The buckled columns below the upper block are evidently required for the release of potential energy, so where is the released potential energy? In the compressed upper block? How can a solid upper block be compressed? By heat - the air went out of the upper block? Apparently. But what caused that?

Nist suggests FAQ Dec 2007 that 6-11 floors inside the upper block fell down on the top floor of the structure and caused collapse. Therefore no buckled columns - as seen on the videos. Fair enough. But the telescoping of the upper block? How does it become so short? Is it imploding? What happened to the perimeter walls (and their columns) of the upper block when it becomes 50% shorter? Any ideas?
 
Nist suggests FAQ Dec 2007 that 6-11 floors inside the upper block fell down on the top floor of the structure and caused collapse.
I think they said that a floor is able to carry the weight of 11 or 12 floors, which is an extreme amount (only the connections then could do that, then imagine how strong the core itself must be!!) but that it could carry only 6 floors that move dynamically. In the old FAQ they explicitly stated that they rejected the pancake for collapse initiation.
 
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Tony, could I trouble you to restate your alternative model for the observed perimeter column bowing and buckling?

(Very short is fine.)

Max, I think it was as simple as the core columns being taken out that then caused the floors to pull on the perimeter columns, causing them to bow inwardly and buckle. The antenna drop before the roof line in the North Tower collapse is evidence of a core first failure.

How the core columns were taken out is a subject which can be speculated on and I think your heat weakening theory, at least for initiation, has merit. It would also explain why NIST got so few central core columns from the fire affected areas, since if thermite was used to weaken those columns they would have experienced temperatures much higher than fires could produce. How could they explain that?
 
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How the core columns were taken out is a subject which can be speculated on and I think your heat weakening theory, at least for initiation, has merit.
You do? Excellent! Then you can explain how the work could have been done and survived. Proceed, Mr. Szamboti.
 
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I think they said that a floor is able to carry the weight of 11 or 12 floors, which is an extreme amount (only the connections then could do that, then imagine how strong the core itself must be!!) but that it could carry only 6 floors that move dynamically. In the old FAQ they explicitly stated that they rejected the pancake for collapse initiation.

This is what Nist says (not very clearly or convincingly):

"1. Was there enough gravitational energy present in the World Trade Center Towers to cause the collapse of the intact floors below the impact floors? Why was the collapse of WTC 1 and 2 not arrested by the intact structure below the floors where columns first began to buckle?

Yes, there was more than enough gravitational load to cause the collapse of the floors below the level of collapse initiation in both WTC Towers. The vertical capacity of the connections supporting an intact floor below the level of collapse was adequate to carry the load of 11 additional floors if the load was applied gradually and 6 additional floors if the load was applied suddenly (as was the case). Since the number of floors above the approximate floor of collapse initiation exceeded six in each WTC Tower (12 and 29 floors, respectively), the floors below the level of collapse initiation were unable to resist the suddenly applied gravitational load from the upper floors of the buildings. Details of this finding are provided below:

Consider a typical floor immediately below the level of collapse initiation and conservatively assume that the floor is still supported on all columns (i.e., the columns below the intact floor did not buckle or peel-off due to the failure of the columns above). Consider further the truss seat connections between the primary floor trusses and the exterior wall columns or core columns. The individual connection capacities ranged from 94,000 lb to 395,000 lb, with a total vertical load capacity for the connections on a typical floor of 29,000,000 lb (See Section 5.2.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1-6C). The total floor area outside the core was approximately 31,000 ft2, and the average load on a floor under service conditions on September 11, 2001 was 80 lb/ft2. Thus, the total vertical load on a floor outside the core can be estimated by multiplying the floor area (31,000 ft2) by the gravitational load (80 lb/ft2), which yields 2,500,000 lb (this is a conservative load estimate since it ignores the weight contribution of the heavier mechanical floors at the top of each WTC Tower). By dividing the total vertical connection capacity (29,000,000 lb) of a floor by the total vertical load applied to the connections (2,500,000 lb), the number of floors that can be supported by an intact floor is calculated to be a total of 12 floors or 11 additional floors.

This simplified and conservative analysis indicates that the floor connections could have carried only a maximum of about 11 additional floors if the load from these floors were applied statically. Even this number is (conservatively) high, since the load from above the collapsing floor is being applied suddenly. Since the dynamic amplification factor for a suddenly applied load is 2, an intact floor below the level of collapse initiation could not have supported more than six floors. Since the number of floors above the level where the collapse initiated, exceeded 6 for both towers (12 for WTC 1 and 29 for WTC 2), neither tower could have arrested the progression of collapse once collapse initiated. In reality, the highest intact floor was about three (WTC 2) to six (WTC 1) floors below the level of collapse initiation. Thus, more than the 12 to 29 floors reported above actually loaded the intact floor suddenly. "

Crystal clear? Question remains how you load just one (lose) floor suddenly on the uppermost intact floor. Had it, the first floor above, been ripped off all the columns. Maybe, it had. How about the second, third, etc floors above? Also ripped off the upper block. At the same time? The upper block is supposed to be rigid! Nist says it goes into pieces.
Anyway, loading of lose floors on top of one intact floor cannot be simultanesouly and suddenly.

Another question is, of course, what happens when you load a floor on a floor? Answer is, that only the weakest part breaks!
Where is the weakest part? At the bolted floor connection to a column or at mid-length between the columns?
In the first case the bolts shear off at one side and the floor hangs on to the other side columns. The potential energy will be directed sideways out of the way down. In the second case the floor collapses at mid-length and hangs on at the columns both sides. The potential energy drops through a hole in the middle of the floor.
Nist suggests that all bolts - on both the outer wall and the inner core side - shear off simultaneously. No evidence for that of course. Etc, etc.

I sometimes wonder what monkey wrote the Nist reply!
 
Yes, I found it back already. Suddenly is not really a scientific way of explaining, it would be better to give the energy those 6 floors have when they move. To initiate collapse they don't move of course and that is exactly the problem you are having, but I'm behind you with that point. The top section is more than 6 floors but that damned top section wasn't dynamically applied to a next floor, because it should first fall a floor and even then those core columns and perimeter columns are still there. To detach it it should first have energy to move. Your four-legged table is a good example, but it was a couple of 100s legged table.
 
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Yes, I found it back already. Suddenly is not really a scientific way of explaining, it would be better to give the energy those 6 floors have when they move. To initiate collapse they don't move of course and that is exactly the problem you are having, but I'm behind you with that point. The top section is more than 6 floors but that damned top section wasn't dynamically applied to a next floor, because it should first fall a floor and even then those core columns and perimeter columns are still there. To detach it it should first have energy to move. Your four-legged table is a good example, but it was a couple of 100s legged table.
So the perimeter walls didn't bow, then buckle, leading to global collapse? Then please explain your collapse mechanism, which matches observations.
 
So the perimeter walls didn't bow, then buckle, leading to global collapse? Then please explain your collapse mechanism, which matches observations.

You mean the perimeter columns that are still intact ? The ones that are broken don't need to buckle because they have no load to carry. The ones that are left will of course buckle.
 
You mean the perimeter columns that are still intact ? The ones that are broken don't need to buckle because they have no load to carry. The ones that are left will of course buckle.
And then what? You haven't gotten to your collapse initiation hypothesis that takes into account these observed events.
 
You're right, you are using it wrong. Pancake collapse is typical in concrete-steel(rebar) reinforced construction. The entire level comes crashing down on top of the lower level, on top of the next, on top of the next. It is slang for a "progressive" collapse found in concrete-steel reinforced buildings due to its appearance after the collapse.

I find the best way not to confuse people(the ones that want to be confused) is to use the term "progressive floor collapse" instead of pancaking.

I never thought anyone would get to correct Myriad for using slang, least of all me! ;)


Ah, OK. Thanks for the correction. Given that the term actually refers to a particular type of end result, rather than the particular process that brings about that type of end result, I have indeed been using it wrong.

Bofors and others who may be reading, I apologize for any confusion this might have caused. When considering my recent posts on this thread, starting with post 353, please read "pancaking of floors" (and similar fried-breafast-pastry-based phrases) as "progressive detachment of floors from still-standing vertical supports, due to the impact of the mass of already-detached floors falling from above."

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
Max, I think it was as simple as the core columns being taken out that then caused the floors to pull on the perimeter columns, causing them to bow inwardly and buckle. The antenna drop before the roof line in the North Tower collapse is evidence of a core first failure.

How the core columns were taken out is a subject which can be speculated on and I think your heat weakening theory, at least for initiation, has merit. It would also explain why NIST got so few central core columns from the fire affected areas, since if thermite was used to weaken those columns they would have experienced temperatures much higher than fires could produce. How could they explain that?

Bolding mine

If you base your hypothosys on a false premise, then, yes, it will be absolutely wrong from the start and in every particular.
You are now throwing out stupid--if not moronic-- ideas. The antenna did not drop first!
Only an idiot will believe that. When viewed from straight behind, it appears that happened. As you twoofers have been shown, time after time after time after time, the videos from the side show that the antenna remains attached to the top of the buliding while the entire top block rotates downward, around the hinge formed by the (thus far) undamaged, remaining columns--which immediately fail.

Quit lying. OR has it become such an ingrained habit you can't?
 

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