The case against Dr. Paul

[WildCat]

Actually let's discuss deflation. Why is this a bad thing, again? Prices getting lower makes life difficult, exactly why?

Wages go down, but so do prices. I guess I'm not getting it.

Did you forget that deflation in the real estate market is what is driving the mortgage problems we're currently experiencing? Now apply that to the entire economy and all outstanding debt, public and private. What you end up with is a major depression that makes the 1930's look like the good old days.

eta: and it's just a few percentage points in the real estate market! A gold standard would deflate the economy to a small fraction of its current value.

 

[volatile]

Actually let's discuss deflation. Why is this a bad thing, again? Prices getting lower makes life difficult, exactly why?

Wages go down, but so do prices. I guess I'm not getting it.

You're conditioned to think deflation is a bad thing. So we have a constant varying rate of inflation. We consider ourselves lucky if the inflation rate is reduced -- but never to zero. Deflation is a negative inflation rate.

-Dave

Oh my god. Seriously? Do we need to go that far back? I have only a cursory interest in economics and am terrible at maths, but even I can answer the question "What's wrong with deflation?"

To start with, rampant deflation discourages savings. If you hold onto your money whilst its dropping in value, you're screwed. Hardly a great economic strategy for long term prosperity now, is it?

Furthermore, with deflation, the harder someone works, the less their labour is worth. If you have a currency deflation every time productivity increases, you are disincentivising labour (and innovation)...

Sheesh. If you think about this for a microsecond, you'll realise how silly you sound.

 

[dudalb]

The Economic Woo Is Strong With This One.

 

[Corsair 115]

I'm just not happy with the fruit of my labor (my income) being taken by force and used without my consent.

How many folks are happy about paying taxes? But many folks realize the usefulness of what they get in exchange for paying those taxes.

 

[dudalb]

I'm just not happy with the fruit of my labor (my income) being taken by force and used without my consent.

Ok,don't pay taxes,have no police force,and see your money taken from you by armed robbery.
I am not happy that someday I am going to die without my consenting to it but it called"The Facts Of Life".
If you want to talk about how much you pay in taxes and whether it is well spent,that is a very legitimate debate. But to want to get rid of taxes completly is just plain wack,an example of ideology proceeding without any common sense involved at it's finest.

 

[Corsair 115]

Russia and China will never allow the US to control all the middle eastern oil.

You are aware that the U.S. imports one-third of its oil from its two neighbouring nations, Canada and Mexico?

Here are the top fifteen nations in terms of U.S. crude oil imports in 2006, and the percentage of total imports that they supplied:

#1 - Canada, 17.66%
#2 - Mexico, 15.61%
#3 - Saudi Arabia, 14.08%
#4 - Venezuela, 11.28%
#5 - Nigeria, 10.33%
#6 - Iraq, 5.48%
#7 - Angola, 5.08%
#8 - Algeria, 3.54%
#9 - Ecuador, 2.70%
#10 - Kuwait, 1.77%
#11 - Colombia, 1.40%
#12 - Brazil, 1.32%
#13 - United Kingdom, 1.27%
#14 - Russia, 1.07%
#15 - Norway, 0.97%

So, the top nation, Canada, supplied over one-sixth of all U.S. crude oil imports. The top two nations, Canada and Mexico, supplied one-third of all U.S. crude oil imports. The top five nations supplied 69% of imports. The top ten nations supplied 87.5%; the remaining 12.5% came from 38 different countries.

Persian Gulf nations, defined as including Bahrain, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and United Arab Emirates, supplied 21.39% of U.S. crude oil imports in 2006. In 2001, the percentage was 28.56%. In terms of the number of barrels of oil imported from the Persian Gulf, it was 19% lower in 2006 than it was in 2001 in spite of overall demand being 8% higher.

 

[dudalb]

I'm losing interest in trying to educate you guys. You've got all the information you need to educate yourselves. It doesn't take very long to figure this stuff all out.

How come almost everybody who says that here is peddling some type of Woo?

 

[dash]

Oh my god. Seriously? Do we need to go that far back? I have only a cursory interest in economics and am terrible at maths, but even I can answer the question "What's wrong with deflation?"

To start with, rampant deflation discourages savings. If you hold onto your money whilst its dropping in value, you're screwed. Hardly a great economic strategy for long term prosperity now, is it?

Furthermore, with deflation, the harder someone works, the less their labour is worth. If you have a currency deflation every time productivity increases, you are disincentivising labour (and innovation)...

Sheesh. If you think about this for a microsecond, you'll realise how silly you sound.

You need to get your terminology straight.

deflation = money becomes more valuable over time (prices go down)
inflation = money becomes less valuable over time (prices go up)
disinflation = reduced rate of inflation, but it's still inflation.
devaluation = money becomes less valuable over time.

Money devaluation = price inflation.

Deflation of prices means value of every dollar is rising. That means it is simply awful to owe money during times of deflation. It's costing you more to pay back the loan. Inflation is the opposite -- it's good to be in debt during times of inflation, as long as you're paying fixed interest rates.

Me, I'm not in debt. Naturally I favor deflation. I want my money to buy more.

-Dave

 

[dash]

You are aware that the U.S. imports one-third of its oil from its two neighbouring nations, Canada and Mexico?

And the relevance is...?

If the US can control Middle Eastern oil, that forces other nations to require dollars to buy oil. Props up the dollar, see? Keeps the dollar strong. The Middle East has the largest proven oil reserves on the planet.

It's all about the dollar. It's why we're there. It's why Bush is trying so, so hard to demonize Iran. Once they end pricing oil in dollars...it's just another bombshell against the dollar as the world's reserve currency.

-Dave

 

[dash]

The Economic Woo Is Strong With This One.

That is just about the most lame, me-too, knee-jerk groupie comment I've heard this week.

It's hilarious. You guys are all so amazingly ignorant about economics it's laughable. You don't think I haven't heard these same things you're spouting from 99% of all economists in the mainstream media? You're not spouting your own thoughts, you're spouting theirs. You're basically tape recorders.

What's the point? I'm in the 1% minority. You're saying, "Join us. It's bliss!" like zombies. Like you're going to educate me on the error of my ways. Is the purpose to get the overall agreement up to 99.9%? 99.99%? Ah, at last, we all agree the economy is in tip top shape, the US is on top of the world.

You refute my explanations with....ignorance! You don't know the terminology, you don't know the underlying principles. You don't know the history. And I'm spouting "woo"! I'm sitting here laughing. I guess I should thank you, laughter is beneficial.

If you're really curious, I'll explain. Name calling is not refuting arguments.

What is the resistance to the truth? Are you just afraid I might be right? It's like you're all locked in arms, ready for anything. Nevermind you're standing on the deck of the titanic as it's going down. Live together, die together!

That's the whole point though. The US is washed up. Pretty soon it'll be just another nation among many. I look forward to a return to Constitutional government. Then I'll be interested in investing back in the US.

-Dave

 

[WildCat]

You need to get your terminology straight.

deflation = money becomes more valuable over time (prices go down)
inflation = money becomes less valuable over time (prices go up)
disinflation = reduced rate of inflation, but it's still inflation.
devaluation = money becomes less valuable over time.

Money devaluation = price inflation.

Deflation of prices means value of every dollar is rising. That means it is simply awful to owe money during times of deflation. It's costing you more to pay back the loan. Inflation is the opposite -- it's good to be in debt during times of inflation, as long as you're paying fixed interest rates.

Me, I'm not in debt. Naturally I favor deflation. I want my money to buy more.

-Dave

Wow... just wow... you really have no clue how deflation would devastate the economy, do you?

 

[Spindrift]

Why deflation is bad in one easy lesson:

You mortgage your house for $300,000, 6%, 30 years = about $1800 a month

You are making $75,000 a year so $21600 a year is doable.

DEFLATION SETS IN!

Your $300,000 house is now worth $100,000

Your salary is now $25,000

You still owe $1800 a month.

YOU LOSE YOUR HOUSE!

 

[Suddenly]

That is just about the most lame, me-too, knee-jerk groupie comment I've heard this week.

It's hilarious. You guys are all so amazingly ignorant about economics it's laughable. You don't think I haven't heard these same things you're spouting from 99% of all economists in the mainstream media? You're not spouting your own thoughts, you're spouting theirs. You're basically tape recorders.

What's the point? I'm in the 1% minority. You're saying, "Join us. It's bliss!" like zombies. Like you're going to educate me on the error of my ways. Is the purpose to get the overall agreement up to 99.9%? 99.99%? Ah, at last, we all agree the economy is in tip top shape, the US is on top of the world.

Ahhh... the reverse argument from popularity. The final intelligible defense of the crackpot. Popular belief means that the belief is somehow wrong.

I love it... it sounds like a teenager rejecting popular music as being commercial, etc.

Then we go with the "things aren't perfect so they must all be changed" false dichotomy.

What is the resistance to the truth? Are you just afraid I might be right? It's like you're all locked in arms, ready for anything. Nevermind you're standing on the deck of the titanic as it's going down. Live together, die together!

Pascal's wager much?

That's the whole point though. The US is washed up. Pretty soon it'll be just another nation among many. I look forward to a return to Constitutional government. Then I'll be interested in investing back in the US.

-Dave

Uh oh. Care to elaborate on "constitutional government?"

The US has always been another nation among many. More of the failure of the US educational system that has always been more about deifying the United States than actually teaching its history...

 

[Suddenly]

Why deflation is bad in one easy lesson:

You mortgage your house for $300,000, 6%, 30 years = about $1800 a month

You are making $75,000 a year so $21600 a year is doable.

DEFLATION SETS IN!

Your $300,000 house is now worth $100,000

Your salary is now $25,000

You still owe $1800 a month.

YOU LOSE YOUR HOUSE!

You don't get it do you?

1) It is your fault in getting to the pathetic circumstance where you have to borrow money.

2) As such you are taking advantage of the corrupt practice known as fractional banking that allows deadbeats like you to take other peoples money to make up for your failure reflected in (1) above.

3) Now you want use inflation to steal the value of everybody else's money to pay back the money the bank recklessly has taken from good and noble americans who save money instead of borrowing it like losers like you are reduced to. No wonder you are a collectivist liberal statist dohickey.

People like you are why America is in a death spiral. Hope you are happy.

 

[TriskettheKid]

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why I loathe Ron Paul and his supporters.

 

[Suddenly]

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why I loathe Ron Paul and his supporters.

Because you hate the truth? I bet you are one of those losers too lazy to save the money to buy a house, so you go along with the bank's fraudulent scheme of taking working people's money and giving it to freeloading losers. Added to that the nerve to say that there should be more money so you can pay back less than you borrow.

Wake up!! Open your eyes!! Get a job!!!!

 

[Spindrift]

You don't get it do you?

1) It is your fault in getting to the pathetic circumstance where you have to borrow money.

2) As such you are taking advantage of the corrupt practice known as fractional banking that allows deadbeats like you to take other peoples money to make up for your failure reflected in (1) above.

3) Now you want use inflation to steal the value of everybody else's money to pay back the money the bank recklessly has taken from good and noble americans who save money instead of borrowing it like losers like you are reduced to. No wonder you are a collectivist liberal statist dohickey.

People like you are why America is in a death spiral. Hope you are happy.

I, sir, am insulted! How dare you call me a dohickey! I may be a collectivist liberal statist, but I am most certainly not a dohickey!

 

[Suddenly]

I, sir, am insulted! How dare you call me a dohickey! I may be a collectivist liberal statist, but I am most certainly not a dohickey!

Okay... "collectivist liberal statist whatzit."

Then again, one of the Ron Paul newsletters called Jack Kemp a liberal statist, so who knows...

 

[dudalb]

That's the whole point though. The US is washed up. Pretty soon it'll be just another nation among many. I look forward to a return to Constitutional government. Then I'll be interested in investing back in the US.

The depth of your love of country is impressive.
Until the above happens,why not move to India,or China, or one of the other countries you advocate investing in?
Don't let the door slam you in the butt on your way out.
And remember,Schiff,the guy who dash gets his economic advice from, is the main economic advisor to the Paul campaign.
So the Great Patriot Paul has in a very important advisoraly position somebody who advocates people pulling their money out of the US and putting it into other countries...many of whom have no love for the US.
Just freaking amazing.

 

[Father Dagon]

"NAFTA’s superhighway is just one part of a plan to erase the borders between the U.S. and Mexico, called the North American Union. This spawn of powerful special interests, would create a single nation out of Canada, the U.S. and Mexico, with a new unelected bureaucracy and money system."

http://www.ronpaul2008.com/issues/american-independence-and-sovereignty/

" Both the WTO and CAFTA could force Americans to get a doctor’s prescription to take herbs and vitamins. Alternative treatments could be banned."​

Banning stupidness is wrong. But Dr. Paul should know that there's no such thing as alternative medicine. Only medicine and non-medicine.