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JONES new paper:Microspheres and Temperatures

Mackey Wrote:



um....read the paper and you will see that they are not Jones' numbers. He sources it from a previous study done by a non-truther scientist.

Well, wherever those numbers come from, they're not representative, as my source proves. Even if we restrict the dust to the most iron-bearing fraction, i.e. only particles 2.5 μm and below, you're still under 3.1% total iron, a tiny fraction of which is microspheres.

At best, what you have is a cherry-pick. At worst, a deliberate misrepresentation of data. In any case, wrong and not supporting your position.

P.S.: I'm familiar with the RJ Lee Report, and I don't recall ever seeing him claim 5+% of the sample was iron microspheres. Just checked again, didn't see it. Hence why I suspected Dr. Jones of making it up. Maybe you've seen something I haven't -- but please source this quote, or retract it as well.
 
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thanks for nothing


sorry, my apologies, this air tension is getting to me.

In all seriousness though sizzler I'm a little disappointed. When you started this thread I had never seen any of your prior posts, so I had no preconcieved notions. I thought you were genuinely asking questions about the legitamacy of this paper. In some 200 posts since then it/he has been decimated by some rather intelligent people familiar with this very subject (myself NOT included) and yet you refuse to relent. Also, it kinda saddens me to see someone like yourself be mislead by the likes of SJ and his scientific hand waving.
 
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"The report?" What report, [Edit: I see you mean the JONES report, and it's page 9, not 10] and where are higher local temperatures ruled out?

It's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of fact that you have not responded to. In fact, you fled the thread as soon as it was pointed out. I will not "let it go at that" as long as you are posting here.

Clear enough, Craig Furlong? Then show that you're honest and do it.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63740&page=10#394

I did not "flee" that thread. I decided it was a waste of time attempting to communicate with you. I still do.

But fair enough -- here is my answer (as in "Final"; I will not waste further time discussing this with you):
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3387799#post3387799
 
The paper I posted suggests microspheres are not expected to be found naturally in the WTC fire.
And yet experts – who were not consulted by Jones et al, seem to think otherwise. So what are you going to do about that?

No one as of yet has linked me to a source showing how microspheres could be formed in the WTC fires.
So what are you going to do about this issue, which is vitally important to you? How do you intend to learn more about it? By continuing to ask the same questions of laymen, or by asking experts?

Which will it be, Sizzler? I eagerly await your response. Can it be that you don't want to catch the inside jobbers?
 
I did not "flee" that thread. I decided it was a waste of time attempting to communicate with you. I still do.
You left as soon as the error that completely invalidated your paper was pointed out, and never responded to the correction. That was in October, 2006. And now that you're back, you still refuse to acknowledge your mistake.

I'm sorry that you think it's a waste of time to have your errors pointed out. How then do you learn? I guess you don't: you just keep making the same mistakes over and over and over. That's the truther way.
 
P.S.: I'm familiar with the RJ Lee Report, and I don't recall ever seeing him claim 5+% of the sample was iron microspheres. Just checked again, didn't see it. Hence why I suspected Dr. Jones of making it up. Maybe you've seen something I haven't -- but please source this quote, or retract it as well.
Yes, the 130 Liberty report does say 5+% iron spheres, in a table near the end IIRC. That's only for 130 Liberty Street.
 
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Well, wherever those numbers come from, they're not representative, as my source proves. Even if we restrict the dust to the most iron-bearing fraction, i.e. only particles 2.5 μm and below, you're still under 3.1%.

At best, what you have is a cherry-pick. At worst, a deliberate misrepresentation of data. In any case, wrong and not supporting your position.

P.S.: I'm familiar with the RJ Lee Report, and I don't recall ever seeing him claim 5+% of the sample was iron microspheres. Just checked again, didn't see it. Hence why I suspected Dr. Jones of making it up. Maybe you've seen something I haven't -- but please source this quote, or retract it as well.

In the Jones' report the source is;

RJ Lee Group, WTC Dust Signature Report, December, 2003.

Two links are proved in Jones' report but I cannot access them. Not sure if it is my computer, the link, or if they have been removed.

Nonetheless, my point in posting the ~5% citation was to demonstrate that the microspheres were not just from background sources (.04% is sourced for ordinary dust).

less that 3% to 0.5% still serve the same function.

hey mackey, can you answer this question for me.

How could iron rich microspheres be created in the WTC fire without actually reaching the temperature needed to melt steel?

RJ Lee report states:

Various metals (most notably iron and lead) were melted during the WTC Event, producing spherical metallic particles....exposure of phases to high heat results in the formation of spherical particles due to surface tension.

Temperature for melting iron is ~1500C

But the highest estimate for fire temps is 1100C (air temperature).
 
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Lets focus on the RJ Lee report;


Since these particles were present in the WTC dust, and because the dust was emitted during collapse (not after), it is fair to assume that the above physical changes occurred during the pre-collapse office fire (not rubble pile).

Oh? Can you demonstrate that these microspheres were not: present before the planes hit the buildings; or created during the initial impacts of the planes; or created during the fireballs of jet fuel; or created during collapse by friction? Just to name a few other possibilities...
 
And yet experts – who were not consulted by Jones et al, seem to think otherwise. So what are you going to do about that?

So what are you going to do about this issue, which is vitally important to you? How do you intend to learn more about it? By continuing to ask the same questions of laymen, or by asking experts?

Which will it be, Sizzler? I eagerly await your response. Can it be that you don't want to catch the inside jobbers?

You are totally right Gravy.

Any experts you know of that I can contact?
 
I
Temperature for melting iron is ~1500C

But the highest estimate for fire temps is 1100C (air temperature).
Why are you continuing to ask the same question? Air temperature? What about localized temperatures?

What are you going to do about this issue, Sizzler, which is vitally important to you? If you suspected you had cancer, would you keep asking people on the street about it, or would you consult an oncologist?

Well?
 
that is a start. do you have a link?
Yes, but it would be better if you did an independent study. We want no inside job on this. Plus you need to look it up yourself, you will learn to do your own work and practice thinking for yourself. You need some practice.

But you could look up USGS study on WTC dust, and then see what elements are in concrete. Then you could look up light weight concrete and how fly ash makes it better; like BSAF does things. You could look up where the heck fly ash comes from.

From Jones' paper he tries hard to make up stuff, but
lead oxide on the surface of mineral wool
The lead oxide was referenced in the paper, mineral wool can have lead in it! This paper is so full of junk. You could debunk it if you would research it. Why do you let these idiots make you ask stupid questions. Become an individual and start answering questions.
 
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You are totally right Gravy.

Any experts you know of that I can contact?
Yes, you already know several. And I gave you suggestions in my earlier posts. There are even suggestions in the JONES paper, and lots in the NIST, FEMA, and WPI studies.

Do you agree to pursue this issue, which is vitally important to you, with experts?
 
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I gave you suggestions in my earlier posts. There are even suggestions in the JONES paper, and lots in the NIST, FEMA, and WPI studies.

Do you agree to pursue this issue, which is vitally important to you, with experts?

Yes. But does that mean I shouldn't post here?
 
More something

Nonetheless, my point in posting the ~5% citation was to demonstrate that the microspheres were not just from background sources (.04% is sourced for ordinary dust).

There is no such thing as ordinary dust sizzler. Especially when you begin to look under the microscope.
 
I did not "flee" that thread.

Oh, yes, you did.

Your *cough* "paper" was exposed here as wholly unfounded and nonsensical because you made fundamental errors in your *cough* "analysis" that led you astray, and caused you to come to a conclusion that is completely and utterly unsupported by facts, evidence, or reality.

Perhaps you should stick to quoting the bible passages that you are so fond of. Apparently, there are a whole lot more people who buy into bible nonsense than there are people who buy into 9/11 conspiracy nonsense.

Your *cough* paper was and remains lame, ridiculous and unsupported by facts, evidence, or reality. Stop pretending otherwise. You fled the thread devoted to the subject of your paper more than a year ago and now you've returned to post about it in an unrelated thread, only to flee once again with a hit and run, silly, unsupported post. Who do you think you're kidding? Hell, even most of your tinhat colleagues have long since realized that your *cough* paper was complete and utter nonsense, thanks to the work of rational people here.

So, what on earth makes you think that rational people will be convinced by your nonsense?
 
Lapman:

SJ did send me (and Chainsaw) some EDX spectra that he had not presented at Boston. That would have been in early January. I tried to engage SJ and several of his supporters in a debate on these spectra. We had a few e-mail exchanges but then I sent a long technical commentry on the topic of certain elements such as copper and zinc being present in some microspheres and SJ went all silent on me. That was about 3 weeks ago..... That's all I want to say on this for now.

Has Professor Jones suggested that you write a formal rebuttal?

BTW, he has recently described an unspecified "us" as "beleagured editors", to me. Personally, I would still have preferred a delay to address whatever issues you raised, before publication.

He has, at times, expressed a concern about getting information out before a false flag operation makes that impossible. Thanks to the CIA forcing the issue of the NIE, recently, I think that's of less concern (though ex-CIA Philip Giraldi has informed us that attacking Iran may still be on the agenda).

Anyway, I will request that you write a formal criticism or rebuttal, and submit it to the Journal. If the Journal won't print it, you can always post it at 911myths.com.

As far as variations in chemical compositions of microspheres goes, I think the following will entertain, and maybe even enlighten. :)

When I was a kid, I was watching my uncle, an electrical engineer, solder something. A piece of solder - let's call it a mini-sphere - flew through the air and landed on my finger.

I think if that mini-sphere had been examined, it would have had traces of me on it, in the form of Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, etc.

Spheres flying through all kinds of dust should have all kinds of contaminants. So, I guess the questions that come to mind are: how long can the microspheres stay in liquid form before solidifying (under various assumptions of ambient temperature), how quickly can contaminants diffuse (or even convect) into the interior of the spheres, etc.

BTW, I haven't read the paper yet, so maybe he has gone into this. Hopefully, this weekend.... Even so, I usually stay out of discussions involving chemistry, since I never studied it much, and recall much less.

Finally, IIRC, aluminotherics are used in thermobaric devices. If this is so, can you postulate as to how such an aluminotheric/thermobaric device would be ignited?

I've alway been troubled by the notion of thermite or thermate being widely used as a means of destroying the building, in the sense of melting though columns. The 'collapse' looked quite explosive to me (not in the sense of high explosives), and I've seen exactly one column which was melted through (perhaps during cleanup) so I think it's use as a thermobaric to destroy building elements such as floor panels is more likely (though this argument wouldn't hold for the melted metal falling from the building before collapse, of course.)

If the source of the spheres is aluminotheric/thermobarics, and if the spheres stayed melted long enough to conduct/diffuse contaminants which their own detonation was creating in great quantities, I would think we'd expect a real potpourri of spectra. The question then may be, is the actual data too uniform around certain clusters of contaminant types and concentrations to support this notion?
 
When I was a kid, I was watching my uncle, an electrical engineer, solder something. A piece of solder - let's call it a mini-sphere - flew through the air and landed on my finger.

Boy, those were the days eh? When electrical engineers knew the right end of a soldering iron. ;)
 
I've alway been troubled by the notion of thermite or thermate being widely used as a means of destroying the building, in the sense of melting though columns. The 'collapse' looked quite explosive to me (not in the sense of high explosives), and I've seen exactly one column which was melted through (perhaps during cleanup) so I think it's use as a thermobaric to destroy building elements such as floor panels is more likely (though this argument wouldn't hold for the melted metal falling from the building before collapse, of course.)
Dear 9/11 truther,

Here are some videos of the beginnings of the collapses. Please point out the minutes and seconds in the videos when you believe these enormous explosions happened. If you do so, you will be the first truther to accept this challenge, although many have been asked.

South tower: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2873871255585611926#1m10s

North tower:


If you cannot do this, please explain why. Thanks.
 
He has, at times, expressed a concern about getting information out before a false flag operation makes that impossible.
Jones has also expressed concern that the vehicles around the World Trade Center may have been set ablaze by "thermite dust." So there's that.
 
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