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So you're an atheist. Ok, what next?

Wow! A newbie who already knows his logical fallacies. Cool!

Welcome to the forums, Mr. Geeshu.

(and ghesundheit)
Hey, don't underestimate us newbies. A newbie is simply a newcomer to something (as opposed to a n00b, who is a newcomer AND an idiot). Everyone was a newbie at some time.
"Where we get brainnnnnns?"

"We go JREF!"

"BRAINNNNNS!!!"
Hey, don't make fun of zombies. One of my best fr-- I mean acquaintances is a zombie (though the politically correct term is "revenant") and he doesn't go around eating brains. He much prefers to pass his time playing Halo 3 and watching MST3K episodes.
 
"Where we get brainnnnnns?"

"We go JREF!"

"BRAINNNNNS!!!"

Whoa, I knew this was an intelligent lot, but zombies using verbs? The closest I've seen to that is grunting accompanied by vague pointing motions. And I've seen a lot.

This may be a breakthrough in the study of the ghoulishly afflicted!
 
Truth blinds. It really is as simple as that.

Sadly, in order to prop up Truth, True-Believers need to redefine things to make them meaningless in any context other than within the context of their Truth. The gentler, kinder human qualities are not such unless one is being gentler or kinder in the service of that Truth, or (as the religious) like to put it, through God. The non-believer can site examples until blue in the face of being kinder and gentler, but for the True-Believer, they simply don't count as examples, because they are not through whichever Truth they hold dear. In this way everything revolves around this or that miscellaneous, anonymous Truth and nothing else can ever have any merit of its own.

Since Truth is absolute for the True-Believer, Morality must also be absolute or it ceases to have meaning for the True-Believer. Ordinary human considerations simply do not enter into the discussion, because humans are irrelevant to the Truth. To tell them a non-believer is moral is a contradiction in terms for them. They simply cannot reconcile the ideas.

Plumjam is actually quite correct about Atheism (and one could include skepticism in this) not being "moral," in that it does not take as its first cause God qua moral Truth. But this is child-think, a desire to stay under Daddy's protection and for Daddy to have all the answers for you. When one grows up, intellectually and emotionally, one must discard such child-think in favour of more sophisticated way of thinking and being - one must develop one's own reasons for being moral.

Now atheim itself (and the same is the case with skepticism) does not prescribe a moral way of being or a moral course of action. In Plumjam's perception, theism does and therefore is a positively moral "direction." Now arguments many and various have been presented about what where the moral compass actually points, and with good reason. The direction is deliberately ambiguous - and most frequently, quite contradictory. The net result is that the moral compass points in all directions and no directions at once - effectively being the worst of all possible cases.

Nevertheless, this is not to say that atheism/skepticism precludes morality - it merely requires a more sophisticated idea of what morality is and what it means to be moral. Gone is the absolute authority, gone is simple obedience as sufficient condition to being moral. More is required, not the least of which is the effort to develop an adult way of thinking. Accepting responsibility for one's attitudes (not just one's actions, one's attitudes) is not an easy path, and for many, it seems, it is not one that they choose to even attempt. Nevertheless, it is a necessary step in the growth of the individual.

Typically, religious moralists will level the charge at atheists and other "moral nihilists" that we don't think it is Wrong kill, and in their strange Truth-based sense of the word wrong, they are correct. However, at no time does the atheist/moral nihilist think they are Right to perform immoral actions. This cannot be stressed enough. Consider a moment what it means for someone to be absolutely confident that what they are doing is intrinsically, objectively Right. And since their moral "source" is ambiguous and self-contradictory, anything can be perceived of as Right. This explains a great many many things in religion's sordid history. There was, of course, no checks on this rabid mentality because the millennia long witch hunt to eradicate skeptical thought had been won and most of the unbelievers were dead. Absolute power, as they say....

Where does this leave the atheist/moral nihilist? It leaves one looking elsewhere else for one's guide for moral thinking. Some, to be sure, will simply discard the idea as irrelevant and adopt a purely self-serving attitude, but usually that arises from placing too much import on the idea of morality needing to have an objective, absolute "source." More typically, as has been clearly expressed in this thread, when one rejects the idea of absolute morality, one also loses the need for Truth to conceive of morality or of being a moral person. A more sophisticated, adult approach is developed. The definition becomes a more natural, less contrived one, focussed on others (since morality needs a context), rather than on some vague, indefensible Truth. We perceive of our actions as moral or immoral based upon what they are, their effects on ourselves and others, and whether they are in accordance with the reasonable expectations of ourselves and those around us. An action ceases to have some property "moral" or "immoral" supervened on it, the idea of which quickly reveals itself to be indefensible. Morality becomes human-based cooperative venture, as universalizable as we choose to make it, but never absolute. The benefit for eschewing absolute morality is adaptability - something some condom-hating and HPV innoculation-hating fanatics could use a heaping helping of.

This also has the advantage of causing one to look outwards for one's "source" of morality, just as verificationists look outward for verification of theirs and others' claims. And this is the counterbalance that the True-Believer does not see at work in the atheist/skeptic. We do not perceive of ourselves as absolute moral authorities. This is difficult to explain to people intellectually and emotionally poisoned by the idea of individual conscience - who perceive of themselves as absolute moral authorities. Even those who do not rely on individual conscience, rely on a body of work that has no consistent prescriptive content except accept the Truth and define all things in terms of it.
 
"And, if you cut us, do we not bleed?"

I am an atheist. Hath
not an atheist eyes? hath not an atheist hands, organs,
dimensions, senses, affections, passions? fed with
the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject
to the same diseases, healed by the same means,
warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as
a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed?
if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison
us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not
revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will
resemble you in that. If an atheist wrong a Christian,
what is his humility? Revenge. If a Christian
wrong an atheist, what should his sufferance be by
Christian example? Why, revenge.

Adapted from Merchant of Venice, Act 3 Scene i
 
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Atheists are thought of and routinely portrayed as vile, selfish, confrontational, arrogant, immoral, lawless, wicked, perverted, sinful, uncharitable, inhospitable, petulant, angry, unhappy, hopeless shells of human beings.

An aunt of mine married a Christian and got into the thing principally, IMO, so she could indulge in most of the above while feeling righteous and superior. Intelligent but fundamentally evil. And guess what? Disfunctional family. Her son's done time, firstly for abusing his niece then for downloading kiddy porn. Her daughter's side is doing very well, but is thoroughly estranged.

I just felt an urge to share that :). My upbringing was irreligious, and we're doing very well out of it.

(Liked your post a lot. :))
 
Where does this leave the atheist/moral nihilist? It leaves one looking elsewhere else for one's guide for moral thinking. Some, to be sure, will simply discard the idea as irrelevant and adopt a purely self-serving attitude, but usually that arises from placing too much import on the idea of morality needing to have an objective, absolute "source." More typically, as has been clearly expressed in this thread, when one rejects the idea of absolute morality, one also loses the need for Truth to conceive of morality or of being a moral person. A more sophisticated, adult approach is developed. The definition becomes a more natural, less contrived one, focussed on others (since morality needs a context), rather than on some vague, indefensible Truth. We perceive of our actions as moral or immoral based upon what they are, their effects on ourselves and others, and whether they are in accordance with the reasonable expectations of ourselves and those around us. An action ceases to have some property "moral" or "immoral" supervened on it, the idea of which quickly reveals itself to be indefensible. Morality becomes human-based cooperative venture, as universalizable as we choose to make it, but never absolute. The benefit for eschewing absolute morality is adaptability - something some condom-hating and HPV innoculation-hating fanatics could use a heaping helping of.

Your fine post and DmKrispin's have this direct human-scale in common. Family, friend, neighbours, community. Morality on this scale is a combination of instinct and communal opinion.

You mention universalisaton as an adjustable concept, which brings another matter - our instincts regarding in-groups and out-groups. Different moralities apply. What we regard as moral advances in society have mostly been to do with making the in-group more inclusive. That's actually easier for an atheist than for a believer whose religion defines some people - gays, for instance - as inherently out-group.
 
the MLK point is simply a smoke screen for DOC. It was his weak attempt at trying to paint me as being racially insensitive. Amusingly, in the process, he comes off as being a bit more bigoted than he probably realizes.

"Black people feel the pain ...", how frickin' sad and "doesn't get out much" is that? I doubt DOC will get the point, though.

Despite all that, he still needs to demostrate where in the new testament it acually says directly, "Jesus says, Slavery's bad, m'kay"

Apartheid was bible-backed, and was no better than slavery. The "Children of Ham" was OT, of course, but they found nothing in the NT that went against it.
 
Let's say you've lived at least a couple of decades, you've examined the options, and you've arrived at atheism.

Well.
Here you are.

What do you do now?

In my case, I completed high school, went to college, graduated college, made some friends, worked in food service for a few years, went back to school to learn computer networking, got a computer operator job, played in a couple bands, bought a house, got a cat, got another cat, got laid off, got a different computer operator job, invited my girlfriend to move in ... and that brings us up to date.

What does atheism have to do with any of this?
 
Dear Moderators,

is there any chance you could rename this thread "The willful self-serving misinterpretation by overly defensive atheists of the OP, thus enabling a victim mentality and mutual self-pity party...... thread" ?

I know that's a mouthful, but gotta guard against the pedants, you know. ;)
 
Dear Moderators,

is there any chance you could rename this thread "The willful self-serving misinterpretation by overly defensive atheists of the OP, thus enabling a victim mentality and mutual self-pity party...... thread" ?

I know that's a mouthful, but gotta guard against the pedants, you know. ;)
I'm certain the moderators wouldn't want to change it to such a missleading title. The arrogance of the OP speaks for itself.
 
Dear Moderators,

is there any chance you could rename this thread "The willful self-serving misinterpretation by overly defensive atheists of the OP, thus enabling a victim mentality and mutual self-pity party...... thread" ?

I know that's a mouthful, but gotta guard against the pedants, you know. ;)
Seems to me you're the only one playing the victim. Can you point to an example of an atheist doing that in this thread? I am an atheist, by the way.
 
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