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Ayn Rand

:) I find altruism to be in my enlightened self-interest? It is built on our inherited moral sense.It is the basis for morallity.It justifies itself.
Philosophers should debate Rand's ideas so as to make plain successful philosophical answers- objective reality and morality. She overlooked where philosophers do agree with her on such .
John Rawls is the philosopher of interest in social philosophy.
Oh, people mention Rand's Nietzschean roots but overlook her debt to Herbert Spencer["Social Statics"].:jaw-dropp
 
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Oh, people mention Rand's Nietzschean roots but overlook her debt to Herbert Spencer["Social Statics"].:jaw-dropp


Obviously I can't read the man's mind, but I think that any association of Nietzsche with Rand would make him almost as sick as his association with Wagner made him while he was alive.
 
I read "Atlas Shrugged" over a weekend while restricted to my room in the army barracks at Sandia Base. I never read anything else she wrote. Later, in Germany, we enlisted swine had to have an officer's endorsment to cash a check at AMEX. I'd just write "John Galt, 2nd Lt, OrdC". Never got questioned.
 
Interesting. I don't have even half the disdain of Rand that some posts in this thread display, but the last time I brought Atlas Shrugged up as an example of some dystopian ideal that could have hypothetically contributed to a conspiracy theory I got jumped on in a rather fanatic manner by someone. I wonder why he isn't in here verbally reaming others who have gone way farther than I did?
 
In the sense of her followers, like those of you-know-who, kept talking about freedom in general and the evils of Marxism in particular, but in reality formed an intolerant cult that suppresses any dissent from the guru's teaching and sees all non-members in their select, elite group as inferior, subhuman creatures.
Yeah, but there was actually two kinds of people who read Rand. First, the cult you mentioned. Second, those who got inspired from the best parts and did their own thing.

As for the cult, it could as well be the result of bad leadership. A good leader shall not only lead and inspire, but should be able to hit the brake and say no. A good leader shall also ward off aye-sayers and be perceptive in order to nip mass hysterical tendencies in the bud.

A good group is not person-driven. Sure, Rand was and still is an important person. But a good group has the order of succession clear (a leader can always be hit by a truck) and actively works to ensure a steady influx of new blood. (Sure, you might all be freshly graduated from Big U, beautiful and in you 20's. But 10 years henceforth you are not so fresh & beautiful, but in your 30's. About time to recruit new blood when the teens think that you are a bunch of old ladies and men.)

In a good group, the members feels a connection to each other. In a person-driven group, the members only feels a connection to the leader, like spokes in a wheel.

A good group is in theory immortal. A person-driven group is no better than the key individual.

Ergo: The follys of the cult of Rand was not only by design, but also by ignorance and innocence.
 
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Amen, Skeptic! They find us evil! We are all persons of the mind,not just a few millionares! She and Ludwig von Mises, fringe economist , thought most people dulll.
Altruism -yes!
 
Altruism is a myth. There is always an underlying, personal, and thus selfish goal.


The problem with this is that it sounds like you are trying to "prove" this point by defining "altruism" and "selfish" in such a way that they can only ever result in proving your point. If all it takes is for some act to have the smallest bit of potential personality benefit to therefore not be real altruism then you are basically claiming that the whole term is a meaningless fiction.

Of course, using this same tactic one could argue that every act is actually altruistic as just as you can always find some tiny bit of selfishness is any so-called "altruistic" act you can likewise always find some kernel of altruism in any "selfish" act. Congratulations -- you've managed to (indirectly) argue that every act is both completely selfish and completely altruistic at the same time!

Or, more sanely, all you've done is engage is rhetorical trickery to make what amounts to a nonsense point. Clearly, something more sophisticated than "we're all selfish" is needed here.
 
The problem with this is that it sounds like you are trying to "prove" this point by defining "altruism" and "selfish" in such a way that they can only ever result in proving your point. If all it takes is for some act to have the smallest bit of potential personality benefit to therefore not be real altruism then you are basically claiming that the whole term is a meaningless fiction.

Not at all. I find the entire "selfish" versus "altruistic" argument to be pointless. Both ends are extremes that have little to no value whatsoever in the real world. Altruism is a nice goal, but it's a utopian myth. Egoism is likewise interesting in theory, but useless in practice. The "rhetorical trickery" comes in claiming that one is inherently better than the other.

So clearly, something more sophisticated than "altruism rocks" is needed here.
 
I fault her egoism.
Philosopher John Hospers conversed with her for two years. He found that should would not admit a contradiction,not taking criticism well. She was dogmatic!
Now, he advocates rational egoism. With her he states:"The egoist does not say 'I value only myself.' He says:'If you are a certain kind of person, you become athereby a value to me, in the furtherance of my own life and happiness.' Such an egoist does not sacrifice himslef to others nor does he ask others to sacrifice themselves to him,"in his "Human Conduct, which read anyway.
I find that both he and Rand misues the term sacrifice as the all or nothing fallacy: to serve others does not mean the abandonment of ones own life but mere help. Yes, there might be complete sacrifiece as when one throws herself on a bomb in order to save others, but that is rare. Most of the time we help without harming ourselves.
So, there is nothing whatsoever wrong with altruism. It is mutual sef-interest!
Also his book on introductory philosophy is quite useful for its sections on explanation and God.It is too bad he serves the libertarian cause!
 
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So, there is nothing whatsoever wrong with altruism. It is mutual sef-interest!

I didn't say there was anything wrong with altruism. I said "altruism is a myth" and that it was "a nice goal". The inclusion of "self-interest" negates the concept of "altruism", unless you have another definition that I'm unfamiliar with.
 
I didn't say there was anything wrong with altruism. I said "altruism is a myth" and that it was "a nice goal". The inclusion of "self-interest" negates the concept of "altruism", unless you have another definition that I'm unfamiliar with.

Yes, but your definition of self-interest is vacuously wide in that there is under your definition no action that a person can take or refrain from taking that is not ultimately motivated by "self-interest," regardless of whether that person obtains any benefit of any sort.

Similarly, you could claim that atheism is a myth, by misdefining "God" as "anything that exists" and "belief" as "interacts with." In this sense, a stone is demonstrably not atheistic, because it can break a window.

But I'm not impressed by arguments that hinge on wrong definitions.

Otherwise, it is still trivial to demonstrate altruism is a not myth by looking at the annals of the Congressional Medal of Honor. It is not in your self-interest to throw yourself on a grenade, but people still do it (for others).
 
Yes, but your definition of self-interest is vacuously wide in that there is under your definition no action that a person can take or refrain from taking that is not ultimately motivated by "self-interest," regardless of whether that person obtains any benefit of any sort.

Not my defintion. That's the definition. No one provided a subgenre of altruism such as "motive-altruism", or an alternative form of altruism that we were arguing for or against. You're of course welcome to provide another, and we can discuss.

But for flat-out, no-frills, no-holds-barred altruism, it's simply a myth. :D

Similarly, you could claim that atheism is a myth, by misdefining "God" as "anything that exists" and "belief" as "interacts with." In this sense, a stone is demonstrably not atheistic, because it can break a window.

Yes, we could. We could define, redefine, or "misdefine" anything we like. We could straw-man argue all day. However, this is not what I have done. In fact, I'm fairly certain I didn't provide a defintion at all, but assumed we were all talking about the same concept. <shrug>

But I'm not impressed by arguments that hinge on wrong definitions.

Neither am I. :)

Otherwise, it is still trivial to demonstrate altruism is a not myth by looking at the annals of the Congressional Medal of Honor. It is not in your self-interest to throw yourself on a grenade, but people still do it (for others).

Ahhh, the "valor in battle" argument. :blush: It's been awhile, so please forgive me if I'm a bit rusty in pulling all the major counters for this, which include:

Social Reward
Sense of Duty / Honor
Sense of Guilt / Distress / Self-esteem
Training / Religious Programming
Temporary Insanity
Group Think Mentality
Neurochemical Reward
Martyr / Suicide complex

I believe I've hit all the major components of the counter-argument, but as I said, it's been awhile since I've run up against it. Thanks for allowing me to dust that one off. :D
 
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Ahhh, the "valor in battle" argument. :blush: It's been awhile, so please forgive me if I'm a bit rusty in pulling all the major counters for this, which include:

Social Reward
Sense of Duty / Honor
Sense of Guilt / Distress / Self-esteem
Training / Religious Programming
Temporary Insanity
Group Think Mentality
Neurochemical Reward
Martyr / Suicide complex

I believe I've hit all the major components of the counter-argument,

You missed a few, but you got most of them. I'd also like to note that most of them are invalid. For example, if you are dead, there is no social reward that you can receive. Most ethicists consider "sense of honor" to be a badge of altruism in and of itself. I'd also like to note that "training" is not necessarily in your self-interest; in fact, it's very easy to "train" animals to do stuff that is decidedly NOT in their self-interest.

But the real challenge: Prove that ALL such "valor in battle" incidents can be explained away by one or more of the valid elements of the previous list; that that list is exhaustive.

You can't do that. And the reason is very simple : you're wrong, and it's very hard to prove a statement that just isn't true.
 
You missed a few, but you got most of them.

Well, as I said, it's been awhile, so I'm curious which ones I left off. :D

I'd also like to note that most of them are invalid. For example, if you are dead, there is no social reward that you can receive.

You proceed from the false assumption that application is exclusive to only one aspect of the list provided. There can be, and usually are, more than one reason for any such heroic effort. Although there may be a primary motivation for any action, they are rarely singular. :cool:

But to your specific example, you are incorrect in the case of social reward, as: the individual may not consider that their actions would result in their death; found death to be a secondary consideration; or felt that the social reward (honor, glory, remembrance, etc.) would be worth their death. ;)

Most ethicists consider "sense of honor" to be a badge of altruism in and of itself.

Great, then you can provide evidence from these ethicists to support that claim. And since we're being so technically specific, do be certain to reflect the "most" portion of your claim. :blush:

Additionally, from my reading and understanding on the concept of honor, especially as it applies to altruism, the individual measures himself/herself against a set of strictures, a code if you will, set up along lines social, cultural, economic, etc. They are then motivated to conduct themselves along the lines of that code as a reflection within the defined group, the perception of themselves to that group, and how the group will react to them in most matters. To keep themselves in good standing, be heard on certain matters, held to be trustworthy and so forth, they must maintain the code. Alternately, if they do not hold to the code, they find they have reduced or poor standing, are less to unlikely to be listened to on matters great or small, and are not considered trustworthy. It is, therefor, a very selfishly motivated concept.:)

I'd also like to note that "training" is not necessarily in your self-interest; in fact, it's very easy to "train" animals to do stuff that is decidedly NOT in their self-interest.

Untrue. There is a reward/reason for acceptance of the training. For the animal it is usually postive/negative reinforcement. If the animal does a thing correctly, it receives a reward. If it does not, it receives a punishment or lack of reward. Same with humans. To go against Mark Twain here, :crowded: that is very, very much a self-interested reaction.

But the real challenge: Prove that ALL such "valor in battle" incidents can be explained away by one or more of the valid elements of the previous list; that that list is exhaustive.

Not really a challenge, but I'll address that in a moment. The real chellenge: provide me with one instance where "such [a] 'valor in battle'" incident can be explained away by" pure altruism. Just one please. :D

You can't do that. And the reason is very simple : you're wrong, and it's very hard to prove a statement that just isn't true.

Oh sure I can, and no I'm not. I wouldn't continue to argue a concept, belief, idea that I believed was wrong or untrue. Altruism is a myth.

However, in order to keep the argument going at a reasonable rate, I could not address your specific requirement without a great deal of time and effort. Time and effort I am certainly willing to put forth in specific research and response, but which would hold up our otherwise jaunty discussion. On the otherside, I will concede outright if you can provide one instance where a Congressional Medal of Honor recipient acted out of pure altruistic motivation.

To quote you, "You can't do that. And the reason is very simple: you're wrong, and it is very hard to prove a statement that just isn't true." :D
 
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So in this world, are you morally obligated to let children do dangerous things or are you allowed to use force to perhaps grab their hand away from a hot stove? After all, they should be allowed as free agents to do whatever they want and your only recourse is to use your words to convince them to stop, right?

Further, are you morally allowed to ditch children, and is arresting you for neglect simply punishing the strong for not feeding the parasites?

Further, is it actually out and out morally wrong to decide for yourself to sacrifice yourself? If I see someone about to be hit by a car and I decide to save them but at the expense of my own life, have I diminished the heart of man by reducing myself to a means to their end instead of my own?

When I try to apply objectivism to various situations in the real world, the results seem monstrous to me. Thus, I conclude it's all worthless.

Not to mention that, from what I've read, I still dont' see the absolute logical conclusion that due to the fact that I exist, I MUST exist in that way or it's not rational. Heck if that was the case then physics would actually PREVENT us from acting in any other way. Or, maybe that's all a non-sequiter approach to morality and the best situation is to just base our morality on the principal of "hurting others is wrong". How's that? That's what I go with. As for what's "hurting", I let "others" define that.
 
Alturism and self-interest go hand in hand. It is in my-interrest if I value others to be helpful to them-altruistic. My nephew and nieces are going to be in health care.They will help others- altruism- and make plenty of money- self-interet. Rand and Hospers have a tendentious defintion of both terms.
They make a false dichotomy. She makes unwarranted assumptions one after the other.
 
I stand affirmed. People in the caring professions are altruists and act in their self-interest to make money.No false dichotomy!
 
So in this world, are you morally obligated to let children do dangerous things or are you allowed to use force to perhaps grab their hand away from a hot stove? After all, they should be allowed as free agents to do whatever they want and your only recourse is to use your words to convince them to stop, right?

Further, are you morally allowed to ditch children, and is arresting you for neglect simply punishing the strong for not feeding the parasites?

False analogy, children are not the same as adults. Though it's not suprising that to support a "father knows best" style of government you have to assume that fellow people can all be treated like children by you.

When I try to apply objectivism to various situations in the real world, the results seem monstrous to me. Thus, I conclude it's all worthless.

Only because you clearly have never read objectivist ideas, as is the case with most critics of the philosophy. You wouldn't have asked the above question if you had.
 
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So basically I can define someone I really want to use force to stop as "not the same as adults" and then apply the force? Where's the dividing line? Did she even ever bother defining the cutoff point between children and adults? What definition of children do you use that can't also be applied to irrational adults?

So anyway, here's what annoys me. I've read a number of "objectivist ideas" actually, but apparently I'm "doing it wrong". Okay then, explain some objectivist ideas that set the record straight and try to do it objectively. None of this "children are not the same as adults" copouts.
 

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