Israel will allow fuel, medicine into Gaza - official

[a_unique_person]

Webfusion don't worry, I'm sure The Fool, FireGarden a_u_p and others will come back soon with new comments about how the evil Israelis make life a living hell for the righteous Hamas and Palestinians.
I'm amazed at how you don't get tired with it all.
Keep up the good work.
Regards,
Yair

I don't believe Israeli's are 'evil'. I don't believe Hamas and the Palestinians are 'righteous'.

 

[a_unique_person]

Really we don't know, why don't you do some basic research, and let us know what you find out...

I did, I just assumed you took it for granted.

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=i...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

 

[webfusion]

I did, I just assumed you took it for granted.

No, no, a_u_p.
I'm here to tell you that's not "research" and not "evidence" for the innuendo you are making that in 2008 (today) the Israelis are to blame for an electricity-generation shortage in Lebanon.

Here, let me show you how this works: Your provided google-search links indicated the power generating facility that was hit by Israel in 2006 wasn't actually destroyed --- only some of the fuel-storage tanks were. That's the story I read in several of the linked articles. (I stopped after reviewing four, and they all said the same thing.)

So, I ask you again --- Is the power generating plant at Jiyeh non-operational today in 2008 because of IAF actions in 2006? That's what I want you to find out for us.

Thank you.

 

[webfusion]

Just in case anyone missed it, the "reuters" image posted in
[url="http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3377165&postcount=175']my posting #175[/url]
was a spoof.

I don't have absolute "proof" of my claim that HAMAS is using the breach to bring over more and more weapons to add to their stockpiles. So, let's just assume they aren't doing so, if that makes everyone feel better. Fine. Now that's out of the way...

 

[LoudHoward]

I'm sure theres an IDF soldier out there happy that he for one doesn't have to search that cow.

 

[a_unique_person]

No, no, a_u_p.
I'm here to tell you that's not "research" and not "evidence" for the innuendo you are making that in 2008 (today) the Israelis are to blame for an electricity-generation shortage in Lebanon.

Here, let me show you how this works: Your provided google-search links indicated the power generating facility that was hit by Israel in 2006 wasn't actually destroyed --- only some of the fuel-storage tanks were. That's the story I read in several of the linked articles. (I stopped after reviewing four, and they all said the same thing.)

So, I ask you again --- Is the power generating plant at Jiyeh non-operational today in 2008 because of IAF actions in 2006? That's what I want you to find out for us.

Thank you.

It's not innuendo. I looked it up, Israel attacked at least one power station, and among the infrastructure that was targetted.

I thought the missile was a photoshop, but I had no evidence if it was or wasn't. Reuters didn't have it.

 

[Mycroft]

Good Idea, how will these alternate suppliers supply the fuel. How about by ship, would you allow that? Currently you control all access by sea, can people send cargo ships to Gaza? How about by truck...any way that can go in without being subject to Israeli blockades? By Air maybe? Can goods be flown into Gaza? Do you allow that?

What stops fuel trucks coming in from Egypt?

What international law requires a nation to trade with those who are fighting a war against them?

 

[The Fool]

What stops fuel trucks coming in from Egypt?

Up until the collapse of the enforcement by Egypt what passed or did not pass was Israels choice. Israel may reimpose closure...I don't think they will but they always have that option. Thats an upside of the collapse of the Border restrictions I suppose. It lessens Israels control of Gaza. Lets see how Israel reacts to the freedom at the border.

What international law requires a nation to trade with those who are fighting a war against them?

No such law exists that makes trading compulsory, I know that you know this because any such law is absurd...can we discuss less absurd imaginary laws? Laws do exist that talk about what you can and cannot do to the Civilians caught up in the conflict. It might save time to only discuss laws that exist.

 

[The Fool]

Webfusion don't worry, I'm sure The Fool, FireGarden a_u_p and others will come back soon with new comments about how the evil Israelis make life a living hell for the righteous Hamas and Palestinians.
I'm amazed at how you don't get tired with it all.
Keep up the good work.
Regards,
Yair

BS and not even original. I could ask you to provide a single quote of any of the list of members you chose to lie about using these terms. Can you site them or withdraw the slur? That would be an honest and honorable thing to do why don't you think about it?

Folks I would advise you against trying to Gee each other up into an Ad-Hom It wastes Mods time.

 

[The Fool]

Historically the buffering were from Jordan and Egypt. If you're talking about today, you probably are very aware that Israel is for a Palestinian state but one that would be run by reasonable people and not terrorists. Do you agree that that is a fair condition or should Israel let Hamastan be its new neighboring country?

so you are saying that the entire landmass of a future Palestinian state is being retained to buffer against a future Palestinian state?

 

[The Fool]

Tough crowd --- I started by refuting the post of T-F with evidence of how the money flows into the coffers of the palestinians through various channels (an actual pea-and shell game they play in the Palestinian Authority)
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...01442523010&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
and in the course of that explanation I happened to mention something that I was made aware of by some friends of mine in the IDF. Rather than focus on the basic truths within my post offered (how HAMAS is bypassing the ban on monetary transactions by the EU, World Bank, Bank Leumi of Israel, etc...) all of a sudden, the shift of attention happens here just to see "sources" about the HAMAS taking advantage of the complete breakdown at Rafah in order to do some heavy-duty smuggling! As if they couldn't be doing that!

"No, web, you must be making that up! I'm skeptical of HAMAS bringing in heavy artillery."
"HAMAS smuggling Katyushas and other weaponry? Ridiculous!"
"Cranes? Why would they use cranes? The wall is down! Liar, Liar!"

Let me tell you folks here something, and don't ever forget it:
Stuff happens that doesn't make it onto the Internet. Not every aspect of reality has to be linked to some story on the Internet, in order for it to have happened.

At some point, you have to use your own brains, and say to yourselves:
"Hmmmmmm, that makes sense. I wish it was on wiki, but I can accept when I am told about something which seems logical, which appears true on its face, and I really don't require independent verification for me to accept the veracity of a specific event happening just as it was related to me."

For the record ----

I know some highly-placed people in the IAF, and they told me about the cranes. There was some discussion within the IDF top brass about sending Apache helicopter gunships to literally blow these cranes up right then and there with Hellfire guided missiles.
The HAMAS was using the masses of people in the area to cover their activities with the cranes, and the IAF decided to avoid the resulting 'collateral' deaths that would invariably occur by targeting them.

HAMAS is in full control of the breached Philadelphi Lanes, and they are carefully and meticulously orchestrating exactly what journalists see and photograph, and are regulating how the entire episode of the breakthrough is reported.


T-F says:

"January 25,2008: Cranes lifted camels, cows and motorcycles into the Gaza Strip from Egypt on Friday " --- Sami Abu Salem (RNA)
http://english.ramattan.com/newsdetails.aspx?news_id=37550

Decide for yourselves if the HAMAS used their newly-erected cranes to bring across more than just "livestock and motorcycles" -- personally, I'm OK with believing what my IDF friends told me. I'm not skeptical about that at all. It simply just follows to reason.

Now, if Reuters, AP and Ha'aretz aren't reporting it, does that mean it wasn't happening?
Most likely the Katyushas were lifted over into gaza by these same cranes, hidden in "motorcycle" crates, at night while the reporters were asleep!

Anyway, when the Katyushas start flying at Israeli cities from gaza, I'm not going to be wondering where they got 'em!

I'm also disappointed that you put the word "liar" in quotes and attrributed it to me. I have not called you a liar about Cranes lifting in rockets I have asked if you can site evidence to support a that specific claim.

So in amongst a whole pile of other stuff you have indicated you can't site evidence but have secret sources that tell you it happened...is that the revised claim?

 

[a_unique_person]

Checking

 

[JoeEllison]

Predictable, isn't it.....Yet they fail to level the same accusations at Hamas or Hezbollah, even though their targeting of civilians is a blatant violation of international law.

Here's another one of those strawmen arguments. If your position was better, you would be able to be more honest in your presentation of it.

 

[yairhol]

BS and not even original. I could ask you to provide a single quote of any of the list of members you chose to lie about using these terms. Can you site them or withdraw the slur? That would be an honest and honorable thing to do why don't you think about it?

Folks I would advise you against trying to Gee each other up into an Ad-Hom It wastes Mods time.

T_F, there is not one post of yours in which you condemn Hamas' terroristic actions while on the other hand you condemn all that Israel is doing. I'll just quote some of what you have said so far. If from these words (YOUR words) it does not reflect that Israel is evil and more then I don't know what does:

If you had turned around and gone home you would not have these responsibilities towards the people that are in the occupied territories that you chose to stay on.....I can understand how it happened...all that land, maybe the Arabs will leave or can be shifted.....all that land,all that water....hard to let go of...the poison chalice.

Translation: Israel is greedy.

Running the lives of palestinians seems to have become an addiction

Translation: Israel is evil / inhumanitarian

hang on....maybe "disassociate" means drive them into egypt.....is that what you mean?

Translation: Israel is evil / inhumanitarian

Sometimes the suspension of Brain function that is required to Automatically rationalise and defend any stinking lousy acts on Palestinians amazes me...

Translation: Israel is stupid / inhumanitarian / evil

yeeeeeeha....lets starve em out.......

Translation: Israel is evil

By actually giving a **** about them instead of coming up with all these silly rationalisations of why they deserve less human rights than any other humans on this planet.

Translation: Israel is damn evil

Where humanitarian crisis occur is normally where some boofheads get in the way of the supply chain from the source to the people. In this case the boofheads would be the IDF.

Translation: Israel is evil / inhumanitarian

T_F, the more you reply to this thread the more quotes that can be added to the above.

 

[a_unique_person]

T_F, there is not one post of yours in which you condemn Hamas' terroristic actions while on the other hand you condemn all that Israel is doing. I'll just quote some of what you have said so far. If from these words (YOUR words) it does not reflect that Israel is evil and more then I don't know what does:



Translation: Israel is greedy.


Translation: Israel is evil / inhumanitarian


Translation: Israel is evil / inhumanitarian


Translation: Israel is stupid / inhumanitarian / evil


Translation: Israel is evil


Translation: Israel is damn evil


Translation: Israel is evil / inhumanitarian

T_F, the more you reply to this thread the more quotes that can be added to the above.

If you are asking if a policy of apartheid necessarily leads to inhumane behaviour, the answer is yes.

Israel and the nightmare of occupation

I believed that if Israel remained in permanent occupation of the West Bank and Gaza it would eventually be forced to decide whether or not to grant these Palestinians basic political rights. Enfranchising the Palestinians would, on demographic grounds, destroy the Jewish nature of the Israeli state. It would, therefore, not occur. The logic of permanent occupation was permanent oppression. In turn this would lead to an Algerian-style resistance movement; to the gradual poisoning of the then still relatively benign relationship between the Jewish majority and the Arab minority in Israel; and to Israel coming to be seen in the eyes of the world as a neo-colonial regime, as the moral-political equivalent of apartheid South Africa.

 

[The Fool]

T_F, there is not one post of yours in which you condemn Hamas' terroristic actions while on the other hand you condemn all that Israel is doing. I'll just quote some of what you have said so far. If from these words (YOUR words) it does not reflect that Israel is evil and more then I don't know what does:



Translation: Israel is greedy.


Translation: Israel is evil / inhumanitarian


Translation: Israel is evil / inhumanitarian


Translation: Israel is stupid / inhumanitarian / evil


Translation: Israel is evil


Translation: Israel is damn evil


Translation: Israel is evil / inhumanitarian

T_F, the more you reply to this thread the more quotes that can be added to the above.

The only reply you will get is yet another request to cite examples where I or anyone else has referred to Israel as "evil" and Hamas as "richeous" simply quoting things you don't agree with and deciding you know the thoughts of the person who stated them and they "translate" to other stuff is not going to cut it....I'm sure that they do translate to that for you when you see them. so is that all there is? Have you got anything else you want to "translate" to what you want it to mean? What with Webs secret sources and your translations I'm sure you can establish anything. As for condemning the actions of Hamas....well that may come up in this thread as my condemnation of attacks on civilians by them have in other threads but I don't see anyone supporting the actions here....This Is a discussion forum I can only argue with arguments that are presented. If you want to start supporting Hamas actions I'll disagree with you on that topic too..

 

[WildCat]

Laws do exist that talk about what you can and cannot do to the Civilians caught up in the conflict. It might save time to only discuss laws that exist.

Laws certainly exist forbidding aid to terrorist groups, and Hamas is internationally recognized as such.

The civilians voted in a known terrorist group to power, shocking that there's consequences for that!

And who could imagine raising an entire generation of children to be jihadists and suicide bombers could have negative consequences? Those poor Palestinians, victims of circumstance I tell ya!

 

[WildCat]

The only reply you will get is yet another request to cite examples where I or anyone else has referred to Israel as "evil" and Hamas as "richeous" simply quoting things you don't agree with and deciding you know the thoughts of the person who stated them and they "translate" to other stuff is not going to cut it.

The "translation" seemed spot on to me. You're quibbling over semantics and not fooling anybody. You're not as clever as you think you are.

 

[webfusion]

a_u_p:

I thought the missile was a photoshop, but I had no evidence if it was or wasn't.

True Genius.

Show of hands, who here thought the photo was NOT an obvious spoof of the cow-lifting shot?
Anybody.... Hmmmmmmm....


T-F:

I'm also disappointed that you put the word "liar" in quotes and attrributed it to me.

That sentence was a reference to a_u_p, not you.
He was making fun of the suggestion that cranes were being used to lift things over the wall.
See his post # 171.

It is a well-known fact (publicized in all the media) that cranes are in place to lift materials of varying types (including donkeys, camels, livestock) and I was making a point that a_u_p could have done some minor investigation before saying something which proves he's ignorant of the facts.

Then, I went one step further and made an obviously-faked picture as a "joke" for you, T-F, demanding "sources" and "proof" of HAMAS smuggling in more arms! For years, HAMAS has been bringing in large quantities of weaponry, in tunnels across this area at Rafah. Would you expect us to now DOUBT that with the wall down, they aren't bringing in yet more and taking full advantage of the breach to bolster their armaments? Please, do us all a huge favor, and don't insult our intelligence, The Fool.

 

[webfusion]

U.S. State Department spokesman Tom Casey said over the weekend:
"One of our concerns, and one of the Egyptians' concerns, as well, is that Hamas is using this breach as a cover for additional activities designed not to bring in consumer goods, but to allow them to get in weapons and other kinds of military supplies."
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23103572-15084,00.html
James Hider, Rafah Border Crossing | January 25, 2008
THE US and Israel have warned that Gaza militants (may) have taken advantage of a spectacular breach of the strip's border with Egypt to re-arm, as clear evidence emerged yesterday that Hamas was behind the blockade breach.

Duh.