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Failure mode in WTC towers

Newtons Bit said:
No, this is patently false. Even an A36 hot-rolled wide-flange will not undergo 30 degrees of rotation. When cold It will maybe do 12 degrees (at the upmost) before fracturing. A cold built up box-plate column made up of high strength materials will rotate far far less.

...
Click to expand...

I'll buy your argument that 30 degrees is generally too much but we do have examples of bending in the photos that appears to be > 45 degrees. My main point, which I don't think is patently false, is that member failure will be visible in the photos (even at 12 degress of rotation). We see very little of this.
 
GregoryUrich said:
I'll buy your argument that 30 degrees is generally too much but we do have examples of bending in the photos that appears to be > 45 degrees. My main point, which I don't think is patently false, is that member failure will be visible in the photos (even at 12 degress of rotation). We see very little of this.
Click to expand...

Isn't this all based on 1-d deflection anyways? Exterior columns may have experienced 2-d deflection at a number of points over the 3 story length, and core columns 3-d delflection. At least hypothetically right?

I must apologize, I came into this conversation a little late and this may have been covered already.
 
GregoryUrich said:
I'll buy your argument that 30 degrees is generally too much but we do have examples of bending in the photos that appears to be > 45 degrees. My main point, which I don't think is patently false, is that member failure will be visible in the photos (even at 12 degress of rotation). We see very little of this.
Click to expand...

Read the whole post. We can expect the splices (and likely other connections) to fail before the column even left the elastic region of the stress-strain curve.

In other words, the column begins to fail in buckling but before any rotation has occurred the splices will fail.
 
Major_Tom said:
Below is an extracted frame from the second video clip. This is the moment when those puffs and a small fireball appears in the NW corner, floor 97, North Tower. The arrow indicates floor 97.

[qimg]http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911_curiosos/frame_265_g1.jpg[/qimg]

So you and NIST think the small fireball is caused by an overpressure wave caused by the second airplane impact?

It is on the opposite side of the building.

Notice in the video that no "pressure wave" can be detected by the way the smoke is moving in the gaping hole that the aircraft made in the North Tower at this time (nor anywhere else on the north face of the North Tower).
Click to expand...

Major Tom you should pay a bit more attention to what's going in the gaping hole on the north face of WTC 1. That smoke is coming from the fire burning on floor 97 in the northwest corner of WTC 1. The smoke coming out of the opening clearly pulses at the same time as the tiny pulse of flame on the west side of the corner on floor 97, it is subtle, but the effect is clearly there. And there is simultaneously a puff of smoke between the opening and the corner. Next there is also some puffs higher up in the building. Watch the two videos you posted earlier in this thread a bit closer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciFGdAczRBM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2oUD1XWmB8

Pressure is a scalar force, a pressure wave will move through any opening it finds. An aircraft crashed through WTC 1, so there is numerous openings on the south side the pressure wave from WTC 2 can enter WTC 1 through, then it moves through WTC 1 before it reaches the northwest corner where it forces some smoke and flame out through openings when it leaves the building.

As I said, you do not need to read the NIST report to understand this. Everyday experiences, like noticing that a door or window can suddenly close simultaneously with a door or window being opened somewhere else in the building, will get you a long way towards understanding this.

And these pulses did not have any effect on the development of the fires in WTC 1. This should be very evident if you compare Figure 8-12 with Figure in 8-17 in NIST NCSTAR 1-5A. It shows the fire on floor 97 in the northwest corner of WTC 28 seconds before the impact in WTC 2, and some minutes after.

So basically you come here with evidence of nothing else than the effects of Flights 175's impact in WTC 2. And I am well aware of what you try to imply on your website, I just rechecked it. Maybe it is time for you to get to grips with fact that some suicidal Al-Qaeda hijackers crashed a giant Molotov cocktail into WTC 1 and WTC 2, the effects that followed was a consequence of that fact and nothing else.
 
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frame_265_g1.jpg


Norseman, you are saying that the emerging explosion from the second aircraft is causing a small fireball to appear on the diametrically opposite side of WTC 1, floor 97 at the moment in time of the frame shown above?

In the videos provided yu can clearly see that there is no smoke activity anywhere else on the north and west faces which would suggest such pressure waves passing through the air at such speed.



What you are saying makes no sense. But thanks for trying, for the feedback.




Curioso #2:



In the photo provided below I indicate what is most probably a core column seen falling well outside the footprint, leading other falling dust and debris by at least 15 floors at this moment in time.


falling_beam_z1_g1_w1.jpg



In the short video clip below, you can see this beam with a noticable angular momentum emerging from the falling dust and falling at a faster rate than the other objects.

You can see that the twirling object is indeed most probably a 38 foot core column.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo7t3XQ2PbM




The video tells you from about what floors the core column originally emerges, but there is a much better way to see where it comes from.


The above video clip is downloadable and can be viewed frame-by-frame, forward or backwards at any speed you wish with free software.

In the following link, Max Photon shares an easy way to study video clips using this vastly superior and free method.

http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911...er_op=view_page&PAGE_id=37&MMN_position=58:58

If Max provides a direct link to the same info through his website, I will replace this link.



I highly recommend video clip analysis and individual photo extraction of frames using this method.



Applying these new tools, you can see that there is a very good chance that this column emerged from floor 94. Using your mouse to move the frames fast-forward and fast-reverse over and over allows you to place the location where where the column emerges. You can see that this core column emerges from the same place the large fireball was seen coming out of the northwest corner during collapse initiation, or floor 94.

Truly fascinating what you can see.

Please recall that collapse initiation is believed to have originated on about floor 97. Therefore this column could very well be one of the original columns which "buckled".


How did it get all the way out there? How was it ejected with considerable force and some angular momentum sharply to the west?
 
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Major_Tom said:
In the short video clip below, you can see this beam with a noticable angular momentum emerging from the falling dust and falling at a faster rate than the other objects.
You can see that the twirling object is indeed most probably a 38 foot core column.
How did it get all the way out there? How was it ejected with considerable force and some angular momentum sharply to the west?
Click to expand...

There's simply no way for a core column to be ejected from the core then fall in the path seen in the video. The trajectory makes no sense if it is indeed a core column. Then there's the issue of the amount of force required to propel a core column through the exterior facade (or at least the debris field) to be where you suggest it is. You're suggesting the use of explosives I'm assuming, and even then it's almost impossible. I'm sorry it just doesn't add up in my head.
If I were going to begin to believe you, I need to see some calculation of the force required to do this and then work backwards from there to determine the amount of explosives etc. Until then I firm in my belief this is an exterior column. That's my 2 cents.
 
Tom color me dubious, but I am beginning to suspect you aren't qualified to analyze these images in any way, shape, or form.

Do you moonlight as an Apollo conspiracist?
 
That doesn't even look like a core column.

It looks like a 3x3 block of perimeter columns. See the two ligher areas just away from center?

Not that any real analysis with this kind of resolution is possible, of course. Please just come out and present your explosives hypothesis, Major Tom, rather than beating around the bush, so we can have our laugh and get it over with.
 
R.Mackey said:
That doesn't even look like a core column.

It looks like a 3x3 block of perimeter columns. See the two ligher areas just away from center?

Not that any real analysis with this kind of resolution is possible, of course. Please just come out and present your explosives hypothesis, Major Tom, rather than beating around the bush, so we can have our laugh and get it over with.
Click to expand...

And yes indeed it is a block of perimeter columns:
http://www.reservoir.com/extra/wtc/wtc-small.1060.jpg
http://www.reservoir.com/extra/wtc/wtc-small.1061.jpg

The whole gallery here:
http://www.reservoir.com/extra/wtc/
 
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bofors said:
Gee, I wonder what these flashes of light are?
Click to expand...

You can wonder all you want. Exactly how, and BTW you get extra points for showing your work, did you come to the conclusion they were evidence of CD?
 
Ok, bofors, lay out exactly what you think happened on 9/11, including what you think the collapse initiation was. For bonus points, when you first came here you said there was a problem with the physics of 9/11, show us the maths that bare this out. If you cannot, I will understand.
 
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bofors said:
No evidence of CD here. Nope, none at all...

wtcsmall1056mw9.jpg
Click to expand...
Just air due to the building falling. Like when a house falls, air rushes out. I wonder why? Your proof of CD is a failure, false, stupid, and not rational. But other than that why are you without a single fact, is it a special talent you have not finding a single fact or rational idea on 9/11?
 
beachnut said:
Just air due to the building falling. Like when a house falls, air rushes out. I wonder why? Your proof of CD is a failure, false, stupid, and not rational. But other than that why are you without a single fact, is it a special talent you have not finding a single fact or rational idea on 9/11?
Click to expand...

Beachnut, I guess in your world things can fall vertically down ventilation ducts or elevator shafts and then go sideways and out of the building faster than freefalling matter on the outside of the collapse zone.

I'll bet you also go for the convergent/divergent ducts randomly occurring in the falling rubble theory, which trys to explain loud noises heard as sonic booms.
 
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Major_Tom said:
[qimg]http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911_curiosos/frame_265_g1.jpg[/qimg]

Norseman, you are saying that the emerging explosion from the second aircraft is causing a small fireball to appear on the diametrically opposite side of WTC 1, floor 97 at the moment in time of the frame shown above?

In the videos provided yu can clearly see that there is no smoke activity anywhere else on the north and west faces which would suggest such pressure waves passing through the air at such speed.



What you are saying makes no sense. But thanks for trying, for the feedback.




Curioso #2:



In the photo provided below I indicate what is most probably a core column seen falling well outside the footprint, leading other falling dust and debris by at least 15 floors at this moment in time.


[qimg]http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911_curiosos/falling_beam_z1_g1_w1.jpg[/qimg]


In the short video clip below, you can see this beam with a noticable angular momentum emerging from the falling dust and falling at a faster rate than the other objects.

You can see that the twirling object is indeed most probably a 38 foot core column.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo7t3XQ2PbM




The video tells you from about what floors the core column originally emerges, but there is a much better way to see where it comes from.


The above video clip is downloadable and can be viewed frame-by-frame, forward or backwards at any speed you wish with free software.

In the following link, Max Photon shares an easy way to study video clips using this vastly superior and free method.

http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911...er_op=view_page&PAGE_id=37&MMN_position=58:58

If Max provides a direct link to the same info through his website, I will replace this link.



I highly recommend video clip analysis and individual photo extraction of frames using this method.



Applying these new tools, you can see that there is a very good chance that this column emerged from floor 94. Using your mouse to move the frames fast-forward and fast-reverse over and over allows you to place the location where where the column emerges. You can see that this core column emerges from the same place the large fireball was seen coming out of the northwest corner during collapse initiation, or floor 94.

Truly fascinating what you can see.

Please recall that collapse initiation is believed to have originated on about floor 97. Therefore this column could very well be one of the original columns which "buckled".


How did it get all the way out there? How was it ejected with considerable force and some angular momentum sharply to the west?
Click to expand...

It is a three column block from the perimeter. You can see the gap between columns. Even in a controlled demolition there would have been no need to use charges strong enough to blow core columns far out of the buildings. Any CD would have been done with a minimum of charges and just enough to cut or blow the column at its weld plane.

Of course, there could have been a few errantly sized or placed charges where there was enough blast force to exit the building or nothing blocking it from doing so, which I believe is what Beachnut is showing with his high pressure dust theory picture.
 
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