The Incredible odds of fulfilled bible prophecy

[aggle-rithm]

Are you saying you want to tear it out at the roots?
If you do that, who knows what you'll unearth.

I just think we should subdue it before it runs amuck amongst the townfolk.

 

[Tricky]

Damn, I must have fallen asleep. When did this train change from the Fundementalism express to the Jingoism Express.

 

[joobz]

Damn, I must have fallen asleep. When did this train change from the Fundementalism express to the Jingoism Express.

There is a train
of thought i'm on
and Jingo is it's name-o
J I N G O
J I N G O
J I N G O
and Jingo is it's name-o

 

[Lothian]

Name a Legend (beside your opinion that Christianity is a legend) that has this effect on U.S. Presidents:

What effect? Have a website ascribe a nominal religion to them ?

There is no evidence that they were affected by (a supposed) God. While some may have thought god told them to launch invasions and the like, Deists certainly would claim not to be so affected.

So we have a legend that some presidents believed may have possibly somehow guided them.

At least Santa Claus gave them real presents.

 

[Tricky]

There is a train
of thought i'm on
and Jingo is it's name-o
J I N G O
J I N G O
J I N G O
and Jingo is it's name-o

LOL. I didn't think anyone else knew that song.

 

[Abe_the_Man]

Herod the Great was definitely the one refered to in the nativity story. He was the only "King" Herod ever to exist.


-King Herod the Great, King over all Israel (37-4 BC)
-Herod Antipas, "Tetrarch" of Galilee and Perea (4 BC-AD 39)
-Herod Philip, "Tetrarch" of Northeastern Regions (4 BC-AD 34; over Iturea, Trachonitus, Gaulanitis, Auranitis, and Batanea)
-Herod Archelaus, "Ethnarch" of Judea, Samaria, and Idumea (4 BC-AD 6)

http://catholic-resources.org/Bible/History-RomanEra.htm

So you see there were 4 Herods but only 1 King Herod. Of the other three there were 2 Tetrarchs and 1 Ethnarch.

Mathew 2:1Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
3When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
4And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.

*King James Version, bolding mine

It specifically refers to Herod the King not Tetrarch or Ethnarch. Now don't try and tell me it's the same thing as the bible differentiates between kings and tetrachs.

Mathew 14:1At that time Herod the tetrarch heard of the fame of Jesus,
2And said unto his servants, This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead; and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him.
3For Herod had laid hold on John, and bound him, and put him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife.

Luke 3:1Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,

Luke 3:19But Herod the tetrarch, being reproved by him for Herodias his brother Philip's wife, and for all the evils which Herod had done,

Luke 9:7Now Herod the tetrarch heard of all that was done by him: and he was perplexed, because that it was said of some, that John was risen from the dead;

Acts 13:1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

*KJV, bolding mine


As for everything else I promise I will respond but I will be unable to untill at least tommorow evening as I'm going out of town.

 

[DOC]

Also if someone is dishonest enough to make stuff up could they really come up with the incredible wisdom and ethics of Christ that even Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin basically said was the finest that ever existed and as Franklin said will probably ever exist.

Yes. Easily.

So when Thomas Jefferson says this about the sayings of Jesus he took the time to cut out of the Bible:

"A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen"

or this about Jesus' teachings:

"Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern, which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus".

Or when Ben Franklin says this:

"The moral and religious system which Jesus Christ transmitted to us is the best the world has ever seen, or can see."


--your basically saying that it would have been "quite easy" for liars and charlatans and conspirators to come up with even though people like Plato and Aristotle (who Jefferson read) really couldn't come up with such pure teachings.

And I assume you also believe that the "many" deep spiritual highly original parables that Jesus spoke would have also been "quite easy" for liars and charlatans and conspirators to come up with.

And to those who believe the voluminous teachings of Christ (that Jefferson and Franklin basically said were the greatest ever) were just made up, whom may I ask do you believe did it.

 

[Hokulele]

Argue from incredulity much?

 

[Garrette]

So when Thomas Jefferson says this about the sayings of Jesus he took the time to cut out of the Bible:

"A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen"

or this about Jesus' teachings:

"Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern, which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus".

Or when Ben Franklin says this:

"The moral and religious system which Jesus Christ transmitted to us is the best the world has ever seen, or can see."

--your basically saying that it would have been "quite easy" for liars and charlatans and conspirators to come up with

joobz can answer more specifically, but I will point out that neither Jefferson nor Franklin were familiar with the eastern myths, particularly Buddhism.

even though people like Plato and Aristotle (who Jefferson read) really couldn't come up with such pure teachings.

They were philosophers, not religionists.

And I assume you also believe that the "many" deep spiritual highly original parables that Jesus spoke would have also been "quite easy" for liars and charlatans and conspirators to come up with.

Which ones, specifically, do you think could only originate with Jesus?

And to those who believe the voluminous teachings of Christ

Voluminous? Hardly. Volumes are filled with commentary on the alleged sayings of Jesus. What is actually attributed to him would fill a slim pamphlet.

(that Jefferson and Franklin basically said were the greatest ever) were just made up, whom may I ask do you believe did it.

You may have heard of a few folks name Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? Not that those are their actual names, mind, but you get the drift.

By the way, DOC: Earlier I pointed out how you referenced a source which used "census" and not "taxation" even though you repeatedly criticized poseters here for doing the same thing. Care to comment on that?

 

[Ryokan]

And to those who believe the voluminous teachings of Christ (that Jefferson and Franklin basically said were the greatest ever) were just made up, whom may I ask do you believe did it.

I'm not American, so I don't have the same profound respect for Jefferson, Franklin and American presidents as you have. This seems to lead me to think for myself and judge such texts on their own basis rather than on the thoughts of someone else.

I've read your teachings of Christ. Several times. And in my opinion, there are such works that have moved me more.

It's a shame you discard Plato as easily as you do. I've been really moved by his texts, especially Phaedrus and Symposium. I still remember where I was and what I was feeling the first time I read Phaedrus. A stunning work.

Håvamål, the teachings of Odin are awesome. Now that's a guide to practical living!

Have you ever read the Dhammapada? Now that's also a great work, the essence of Buddhism as the Buddha taught it, and written long before Buddhists thought they had to spice up the stories with supernatural elements.

I'm sorry, I can't invoke the names of famous people from your country that have read these works. But that's okay in my book. Works like these should stand on their own, not gain merit by who liked them and not.

 

[joobz]

So when Thomas Jefferson says this about the sayings of Jesus he took the time to cut out of the Bible:

--your basically saying that it would have been "quite easy" for liars and charlatans and conspirators to come up with even though people like Plato and Aristotle (who Jefferson read) really couldn't come up with such pure teachings.

And I assume you also believe that the "many" deep spiritual highly original parables that Jesus spoke would have also been "quite easy" for liars and charlatans and conspirators to come up with.

And to those who believe the voluminous teachings of Christ (that Jefferson and Franklin basically said were the greatest ever) were just made up, whom may I ask do you believe did it.

You've successfully created several strawmen in attempts to make a point. I need to address each seperately to explain exactly why you are wrong on so many levels.

1.) People do have to be liars/charlatans/conspiritors to exaggerate a story.
Do you claim that people who say George washington chopped down the cherry tree are charlatans?

2.)Even if their was an evil cabal that invented christianity, there is no reason to assume that it couldn't have some good basic principles in it.

You are making the assumption that people are either good or evil. this is completely false. You have committed several dishonest acts during our discussion (mainly presenting information you know to be false and therefore lying by proxy).

Even though you do this a lot, I do not believe you to be an evil person. Indeed, I think you are a very good person at heart who wants people to be good and saved, but are willing to commit minor sins for the greater good.

3.) It is false to think that the debate is either Jesus was real or that other people wrote his stories.

I do not doubt (have no reason to doubt) the existance of a Jesus. I'm willing to accept it as fact. I simply find no reason to think him divine. Since you love authorities so much, You'll see that Jefferson agrees with me on that point.

4.) Jesus' teachings were so good, they must have been divine.
Well, in truth, Jesus' teachings weren't the best.
He did a lot. But we know better. Jesus didn't preach against slavery. That alone demonstrates a massive failing in moral teaching.

Further, I would say Jefferson and the founding fathers did something for us that Jesus never did. He protected us from religious domination. It was discovered (due to abuses by the christian church) that religious led government is in complete opposition to human rights.

5.) Your appeal to authority is heresy. the only way you would think thier opinion on subjects would supercede logic and reason is if you think Jefferson and Franklin as perfect individuals who are never wrong (aka perfect). But then, if you believe that you would be violating your belief that only Jesus was perfect, right?

Since It seems that you are rather strongly christian, I assume you do not actually believe Jefferson and Franklin are perfect. As such, Your appeal to their authority is made in bad faith.


So, in summary, to your question:
"Could the story of christ's divinity be completely made up at the same time/by the same people/ who made up his good moral teachings?"

Yes. yes it could have been. Although, I do think jesus was real. Just not divine.

 

[skeptical]

Actually Luke (the physician), who many say was a first rate historian and was highly detailed about events and places, wrote the reason that Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem was because Caesar Augustus sent out a decree that the world should be taxed. And since Joseph was from the house of David, which was from Bethlehem. Joseph and his family went to Bethlehem.

By "many" I assume you mean "many Christians". Since we don't even know who the author of Luke was, hard to say how one can say he was a "first rate historian", don't you think? And the census occurred in 6 CE, yet Mark says Jesus was fleeing from Herod, who was dead in 4 BCE. Hmm, that's a bit of a problem.

And if the stories were made up you'd think that the four gospel writers would correlate their stories exactly. But the fact that their are some minor inconsistencies in their stories shows that they were written independent of each other.

You don't have any understanding of the growth of mythology. There is a difference between "completely made up" and "core of fact surrounded by layer upon layer of anecdotes and myths". Guess which the gospels are?

Also if someone is dishonest enough to make stuff up could they really come up with the incredible wisdom and ethics of Christ that even Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin basically said was the finest that ever existed and as Franklin said will probably ever exist.

Jesus could have been the best ethical teach of all time. (I don't think so, but let's assume so for arguments sake) That has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on his supposed miracles and god status.

I've said it before: I'll treat Jesus EXACTLY like any other historical figure. Let's assume all the naturalistic information is correct, and all the supernatural information is wrong. Deal? (don't bother, I know the answer is no)

ETA: Sorry, I was late to the party on the census vs Herod dating, never mind, its been done

 

[Fitter]

And to Abe the Man, I don't believe you responded to this post that pointed out that several of your statements were not true.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3338029#post3338029

And if you respond please put your sources immediately after the facts they deal with rather than congregating all your sources together at the end which is kind of loosey goosey.

And if you refer to an Augustus Caesar or to a Herod please be specific which one.

DOC,after reading that post I have to ask "How many people do you have to help you carry your testicles?"

 

[Ladewig]

So when Thomas Jefferson says this about the sayings of Jesus he took the time to cut out of the Bible:

"A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen"

I am completely fascinated by this post. You believe that a slave-owner and a rapist is well-qualified to judge which system of ethics is the most beautiful. How utterly bizarre.

 

[Frozenwolf150]

I take it by that silence that DOC isn't going to or can't respond to my previous post. He argued with just about everyone else who replied to him directly, but not me. Is it because my argument was so convincing that he's finally going to change his mind? Is it because his position was unsupported and indefensible in the first place? Or is it because he just has a habit of ignoring anything he doesn't like to hear and runs away to another thread, changes the subject, or repeats the same lies?

Oh I get it. It's because I'm new here and therefore not worth debating with. Well hmph!

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

The spelling of Cyrenius had nothing to do with my statement.

OK, who should we take this issue up with? TV "psychic" scam artist John Edwards or U.S. Senator and presidential candidate John Edward?

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

Even though you do this a lot, I do not believe you to be an evil person. Indeed, I think you are a very good person at heart who wants people to be good and saved, but are willing to commit minor sins for the greater good.

That's where I disagree with you joobz. Assuming he really isn't just a troll, DOC is a lying, theocratic, racist (e.g. his views on Native Americans), homophobe with who thinks everyone must bow down to his imaginary friend or be made to suffer. I have no respect for him, and I never will.

In short: DOC IS evil.

 

[joobz]

I take it by that silence that DOC isn't going to or can't respond to my previous post. He argued with just about everyone else who replied to him directly, but not me. Is it because my argument was so convincing that he's finally going to change his mind? Is it because his position was unsupported and indefensible in the first place? Or is it because he just has a habit of ignoring anything he doesn't like to hear and runs away to another thread, changes the subject, or repeats the same lies?

Oh I get it. It's because I'm new here and therefore not worth debating with. Well hmph!

Don't take it personally. DOC will ignore posts which contain too much substance. He's already admitted to not enjoying reading complicated arguments. He enjoys short simple concepts.

But I recommend to write for him. I, and I'm sure everyone else, have read your posts and found them insightful.

 

[Damien Evans]

It’s interesting to me how Christians nitpick the extremely minor ways that Jesus was supposed to have fulfilled the prophecies, while completely neglecting the major ways that he failed them.

The messiah of the Old Testament is supposed to accomplish some very concrete things. To wit...



Source

This is to be immediately followed by the Messianic Era. (From the same source...)




Christians, as I understand, explain that all will come to fruition in the second coming. In fact, it’s why a second coming is necessary -- because Jesus didn’t accomplish what he was supposed to the first time around.

But of course, that lack of accomplishment -- by its very definition -- would make him not the Messiah.

Hell, David Ben-Gurion has probably fulfilled more of those.

 

[Ocelot]

Argue from incredulity much?

That's not possible - he doesn't know how to.