New guy here: Questions for official hypothesis

Newtons Bit said:
You do realize that it is a mathematical model. They have to be able to actually SOLVE the equation they set up in order to have a conclusion. The equations they derived and then solved are already complex enough that there's a chance that there is no analytical solution (you do understand what I'm saying, right?).

The simplified the problem. The amount of crush up of the upper block at the beginning of the collapse is small, thus it is mathematically expedient to neglect it. They didn't do it to pull the wool over anyones eyes. Do you get why it is important to make mathematical models simple?
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Yes I totally understand. Thanks for addressing this.

But if one is solving an equation for an event that didn't even happen, what is the use in that?

And, is the crush up really that small?

How many floors would you estimate?

I think it is fair to say that more than 5 were crushed up before crush down.
 
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Brent Blanchard wrote a paper that...What? It's only page 10? I apologize for the interruption. I just can't seem to keep my eyes open.
 
Sizzler said:
Yes I totally understand. Thanks for addressing this.

But if one is solving an equation for an event that didn't even happen, what is the use in that?

And, is the crush up really that small?

How many floors would you estimate?

I think it is fair to say that more than 5 were crushed up before crush down.
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Is the mass still there to do the work? Is the collapse still proceeding downward?
 
Sizzler said:
It has become obvious that no one is willing to address this issue.
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We have addressed this repeatedly. Why do you ignore what we say? Up until now you've been asking questions, but now you're just repeating your claim and refuse to acknowledge our explanations.
 
In describing progressive collapse, you all said as long as the first floor breaks, and the energy gained by gravity is larger than resistance by the floor, the collapse will proceed to the ground.

But the upper floor of the lower section DID NOT collapse.

The lower floors (several) of the upper section collapsed first.

This is very odd because top part and the bottom part are essentially the same materials.

This has yet to be explained.

One person said the lower floors of the upper section may have been heat weakened.

But this is ignoring Bazants 8.1 magnitude of KE needed to cause collapse.

I would expect both the lower floor of the upper section, and the upper floor of the lower section to fail together.

This observation, ie, crush up of several floors before crush down of a single floor does not match what you all initially taught me.
 
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Sizzler said:
I think it is fair to say that more than 5 were crushed up before crush down.
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I think I see what you mean. You must mean the floors between the impact zone and floors of red fire below (the floors that seem to explode in the video).

I don't think these floors were crushed up, it's the upper section once it crumbles the impact zone, it continues its descent and crushes these floors and then everything gets covered by the smoke. The collapse never stops, you get the impression that the floors that are red are resisting because you assume this is where the collapse starts. but it starts higher, at the impact zone (the black hole). Also the collapse is at the beginning of its momentum, which might give you the impression that there is resistance there. But clearly everything gives way as the top section falls.

That's actually the only part of the global collapse we can clearly see (because not enough material has been pulverised to obscure the view.
 
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Pardalis said:


I think I see what you mean. You must mean the floors between the impact zone and floors of red fire below (the floors that seem to explode in the video).

I don't think these floors were crushed up, it's the upper section once it crumbles the impact zone, it continues its descent and crushes these floors and then everything gets covered by the smoke. The collapse never stops, you get the impression that the floors that are red are resisting because you assume this is where the collapse starts. but it starts higher, at the impact zone (the black hole). Also the collapse is at the beginning of its momentum, which might give you the impression that there is resistance there. But clearly everything gives way as the top section falls.

That's actually the only part of the global collapse we can clearly see (because not enough material has been pulverised to obscure the view.
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Newtons Bit already confirmed my observation.

Scroll back.
 
Sizzler said:
In describing progressive collapse, you all said as long as the first floor breaks, and the energy gained by gravity is larger than resistance by the floor, the collapse will proceed to the ground.

But the upper floor of the lower section DID NOT collapse.

The lower floors (several) of the upper section collapsed first.

This is very odd because top part and the bottom part are essentially the same materials.

This has yet to be explained.

One person said the lower floors of the upper section may have been heat weakened.

But this is ignoring Bazants 8.1 magnitude of KE needed to cause collapse.

I would expect both the lower floor of the upper section, and the upper floor of the lower section to fail together.

This observation, ie, crush up of several floors before crush down of a single floor does not match what you all initially taught me.
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Read your first line. After the initial crush up does the crush down proceed as we described?
 
DGM said:
Read your first line. After the initial crush up does the crush down proceed as we described?
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Sure, but it isn't logical that crush up occurred before crush down, and for several floors, not just one or two.

That is my point.
 
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Sizzler said:
But the upper floor of the lower section DID NOT collapse.

The lower floors (several) of the upper section collapsed first.
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Sizzler,

when the collapse begins,

top floor of the lower section = bottom floor of the upper section

Do you get this? The first floor to collapse can't even be said to belong to either the upper or the lower section. It defines the boundary between the upper and lower section.

Saying, "oh, the floors started to collapse somewhere in the middle of the upper section, while the lower section was intact", is nonsensical and self-contradictory. Please, please try to understand that.

After you understand this, look back at your claim. The "upper floor of the lower section" is the floor just below the first floor that collapsed.

Are you actually claiming that you can tell from the video, whether the second floor to collapse was the one just above the first floor or just below the first floor?
 
alexg said:
The collapse clearly starts well above the red line, it starts all the way up the impact black hole. You do see this do you not?
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Again Newtons Bit confirmed crush up before crush down. Scroll back please.
 
Thabiguy said:
Sizzler,

when the collapse begins,

top floor of the lower section = bottom floor of the upper section

Do you get this? The first floor to collapse can't even be said to belong to either the upper or the lower section. It defines the boundary between the upper and lower section.

Saying, "oh, the floors started to collapse somewhere in the middle of the upper section, while the lower section was intact", is nonsensical and self-contradictory. Please, please try to understand that.

After you understand this, look back at your claim. The "upper floor of the lower section" is the floor just below the first floor that collapsed.

Are you actually claiming that you can tell from the video, whether the second floor to collapse was the one just above the first floor or just below the first floor?
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I understand what you mean. Thanks for the correction.

What I mean is, once the upper part was in motion, the upper part crushes first, not the lower part.

I see this in the video. Others see it too. Newtons Bit confirmed this observation too. He said it was excluded to make the mathematical equation easier. He said this is ok because crush up is minimal.

I disagree, and see several floors crushing up.

Also, such a mathematical model is unrealistic because it doesn't match reality.

Thus how can we use the model to define reality?
 
Just to be on the same page, Sizz, what you consider crush up is the part between the black hole and the red line, right?
 
Do you believe that what you observe in the video is evidence that explosives were used, Sizzler?
 
Sizzler said:
Again Newtons Bit confirmed crush up before crush down. Scroll back please.
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Where?
If you mean this post,
Newtons Bit said:
The simplified the problem. The amount of crush up of the upper block at the beginning of the collapse is small, thus it is mathematically expedient to neglect it. They didn't do it to pull the wool over anyones eyes. Do you get why it is important to make mathematical models simple?
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then no, he did not. He talks about crush-up at the beginning of the collapse, not before crush-down. Please pay attention to this important distinction. Everyone has been saying all along that crush-up can occur at the beginning of the collapse. It is also discussed in Bazant, et al. paper.
 
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