New guy here: Questions for official hypothesis

I mean Bazant's model specifically.

Where does he go wrong in his theory or calculations according to the experts in the truth movement.


Ah, "there's your problem, right there!"
The Architects and Engineers for 911 truth are neither architects or engineers, for the most part.They are certainly not "experts" in structures.
Their "experts" are a theologan and a discredited Nuclear physicist. They also have a Mechanical Engineer who believes that "beam weapons from Outer Space" were involved. Their few engineers have no experience in design and analysis of anything taller than a 3 story building, and can't even seem to be able to find MIL-HDBK-5, which has the data for strength vs. temperature. Most of them are not even Civil or Mechanical engineers, much less involved with structure.
 
Do you think there's some foul play involved with the collapse or you just can't wrap your mind around how it happened?

I was unable to wrap my mind around it. Thus I couldn't comment on the possibility of foul play.

I have a much better understanding of the collapse mechanism now.

I am still a bit astonished that all those floors gave little resistance to the collapsing upper section.

However I now understand the mechanism and I guess I have no other option but to dismiss my gut feeling and accept that the floors gave little resistance to the falling mass.

I have to accept this because there is no appeal to authority that disputes Bazant's calculations that anyone know about.

Or is there?

There must be a serious debate surrounding the collapse mechanism?

What is it?

Does the debate involve estimated weights of the upper section?

Strength of the floors?

What is the debate guys?
 
Is it at all possible to take my question seriously? (this is a serious question)

I mean, is Bazant's theory rock solid?

Or are there areas of it that are debatable?

And if so, what is the debate?

I think this is a serious question considering the persistence of the truth movement.


The persistence of the truth movement really doesn't rely on errors in papers such as Bazant's, or even the NIST report (Which does have issues that have been discussed many times on this forum. Do a search.). The persistence of any CT can be based on many different things, including the psychological points Calcas brought up. Just look at the persistence of the Moon Hoax theories. :rolleyes:
 
There isn't one.

But there is.

And for one to deny that Bazant could have gone wrong is against scientific inquiry.

Where could he have gone wrong?

And, why do you believe that although he could have gone wrong in certain areas, his calculations are reasonable?

This is a serious question and it leaves me suspicious if no one can comment on this.
 
But there is.

And for one to deny that Bazant could have gone wrong is against scientific inquiry.

Where could he have gone wrong?

And, why do you believe that although he could have gone wrong in certain areas, his calculations are reasonable?

This is a serious question and it leaves me suspicious if no one can comment on this.


Just curious, what do you believe the peer review process is meant to accomplish?
 
Even if 50% escapes, Bazant's paper cites this as only affecting the fall time by less than a second (if my memory is correct).

Thus it is a non issue up to 50% loss.

At first I thought the collapse speed greatly depends on the compunding of floors and thus mass.

But as Bazant show, up to 50% loss of material doesn't affect the collapse time enough to be suspicious of it.

What I was surprised to learn was that the collapse would proceed to the ground even if none of the buildings floors contributed to the weight of the falling section.

It would have been slower, but nonetheless it would continue.

If none of the buildings floors contributed to the weight of the falling section, the collapse would only proceed to the ground only energy consumed at each floor is less than 225 MJ. Most people use an energy loss between 500-1000MJ. At 500 MJ the collapse arrests at floor 62.

With 50% mass sheading of the lower part only and 500MJ loss per floor, the collapse time is 17.8 seconds for the lower part.

With 50% mass sheading of the lower part only and 1000MJ loss per floor, the collapse arrests at floor 49.

This is why I remain skeptical.

The numbers above refer to WTC1 and I did them very quickly. It would be good if someone could confirm them. I am including momentum transfer, energy loss per floor and mass sheading.
 
Last edited:
But there is.

No, the truth Movement wants to make it appear there is a debate to advance their political and ideological agenda. The towers collapsed as a result of the terrorist attacks, there is no debate about that.

Exactly how the collapse mechanism can be explained scientifically is open for debate of course, but that is not the debate the Truth Movement is aiming for. Government involvement is implicate in their rhetoric.
 
Last edited:
But there is.

And for one to deny that Bazant could have gone wrong is against scientific inquiry.

Where could he have gone wrong?

And, why do you believe that although he could have gone wrong in certain areas, his calculations are reasonable?

This is a serious question and it leaves me suspicious if no one can comment on this.

The Bazant model is a simplified model. The calculations in it are conservative, in that the assumptions are "all the impact forces go into the columns and are distributed among them equally". the actual collapse certainly was not that neat, and the impact forces were likely not applied to the verticals so neatly. They certainly were not equally distributed.
Lets take a very simple structure-a bookshelf. Make it out of whatever you want to.
Now, we are going to load it along one of the vertical edges. If our load causes the book case to collapse, when placed directly over a vertical support, would you not agree that it will cause the bookcase to collapse if you placed the same load in the middle of a shelf?
What Bazant and Zhou did was bound the problem by showing that there was sufficient energy to collapse the building if that energy was applied in the most conservative manner (by conservative, I mean least likely to cause failure).
There is nothing wrong with the calculations in that paper, based on the assumptions stated in the paper. All the calculations are there, all the equations are there--and the science is right, repeatable, and traceable ffrom basic materials and physical science. Any quibbling is over minor points, except by people who have no clue as to what happens to steel under strain, at temperature, and who have no idea that dynamic events and static events are different games.
 
If none of the buildings floors contributed to the weight of the falling section, the collapse would only proceed to the ground only energy consumed at each floor is less than 225 MJ. Most people use an energy loss between 500-1000MJ. At 500 MJ the collapse arrests at floor 62.

With 50% mass sheading of the lower part only and 500MJ loss per floor, the collapse time is 17.8 seconds for the lower part.

With 50% mass sheading of the lower part only and 1000MJ loss per floor, the collapse arrests at floor 49.

This is why I remain skeptical.

The numbers above refer to WTC1 and I did them very quickly. It would be good if someone could confirm them. I am including momentum transfer, energy loss per floor and mass sheading.

This refutes what Bazant claims.

Why?
 
Just curious, what do you believe the peer review process is meant to accomplish?


I know what you are getting at, but Bazants 'pancake theory' was later rejected by NIST.

Was this first paper not reviewed?

Also, one could find examples where peer reviewed papers in other areas that are later rejected.

The trans-fat (is this the right word?) debate serves as an example.
 
I know what you are getting at, but Bazants 'pancake theory' was later rejected by NIST.

Was this first paper not reviewed?

Also, one could find examples where peer reviewed papers in other areas that are later rejected.

The trans-fat (is this the right word?) debate serves as an example.


That doesn't answer my question.
 
Is it at all possible to take my question seriously? (this is a serious question)
I took it seriously. I'd really like to see who has fooled you into thinking they are "experts" in the particular subject they are writing about. Because AFAIK, there isn't a bona-fide expert in all the truth movement in the particulars of the NIST investigation.

So, name them please!
 
sorry, could you restate it then.


What do you think the peer review process is meant to accomplish?



(I hope you do not think I am simply being snarky here, but since you mentioned that you have only had 1 year of uni physics, I am wondering how aware you are of the entire process. It really does make a difference in this discussion.)
 
GregoryUrich:

Maybe you can help me out.

Why do people question Bazant's paper?

Where do they think he went wrong?

Bazant's initial paper had a number of issues in itself:

  1. The first problem is that the strain energy of the top part is not taken into account.
  2. The mass of the top part (floors 98-roof) has been shown by Urich (2007) to be 32.8x106 kg
  3. The stiffness of the lower part, “C” is incorrect and should be approximately 7 GN/m (as shown below) or roughly one tenth of the value used.
  4. For the overload ratio to indicate failure, P0 must be the ultimate strength (=1.67GN which includes any safety factor) as opposed to the design load capacity. (See Calculation of Ultimate Strength below.)
  5. Also, mg is incorrectly equated with the design load capacity and should instead be the actual in-service mass of the top part.

There was very little information about the structure at the time but some of the mistakes are pretty basic. I have reworked the over-load ratio based on newer information and the preliminary result is 1.8 as opposed to Bazant's 31. It is important to point out that my result does support continued collapse but there are a number of issue left to deal with. I will post a paper for comments as soon as I am done.

The initial paper was also criticized for what it did not include:

  1. Momentum transfer
  2. Plastic deformation of floors and building contents
  3. Mass sheading
  4. Air resistance

These issues have been handled in later papers by Bazant but some people are still not satisfied.
 
Last edited:
What do you think the peer review process is meant to accomplish?



(I hope you do not think I am simply being snarky here, but since you mentioned that you have only had 1 year of uni physics, I am wondering how aware you are of the entire process. It really does make a difference in this discussion.)

I have a degree in biology. That requires first year physics.

So I am aware of the scientific method, and peer-review.

It seems to me that you are suggesting Bazant's theory doesn't have many flaws because it was peer-reviewed.

However I retorted by saying that there are several examples of papers that pass peer-review and are later refuted.

Thus my question has merit, even considering the peer-review process.


Gregory Urich and a few others have already addressed my question.

So it seems there is some debate about his method.

And it seems he has made some corrections in his newer papers.
 
Which claims?

Your fall time with mass shedding of 50% is different that Bazant's.

Why?

and, you said some people still aren't satisfied with Bazant's paper even though he has corrected some mistakes.

Why are people still unsatisfied?
 
I have a degree in biology. That requires first year physics.

So I am aware of the scientific method, and peer-review.

It seems to me that you are suggesting Bazant's theory doesn't have many flaws because it was peer-reviewed.

However I retorted by saying that there are several examples of papers that pass peer-review and are later refuted.

Thus my question has merit, even considering the peer-review process.


Gregory Urich and a few others have already addressed my question.

So it seems there is some debate about his method.

And it seems he has made some corrections in his newer papers.


You still didn't answer my question. I have tried to answer your questions as completely and honestly as I can. Why aren't you offering the same courtesy?
 

Back
Top Bottom