New guy here: Questions for official hypothesis

Well, it would make you a twoofer if you believed that a conspiracy originating within the U.S. government orchestrated the attacks of 9/11/01 in order to... let's skip that part. No fantasist has the slightest idea of what the Impossibly Vast Conspiracy's motives were, but they were very bad.

So, you can lay my concerns to rest by simply stating that you acknowledge that America was attacked by well-trained jihadists who hijacked four planes and flew three of them into buildings. Having done so, you can ask your questions about the collapse mechanism free of interruptions.

Incidentally, twoofers routinely prattle nonsense about "conservation of momentum and energy." Your use of the phrase is undoubtedly a coinky-dink.

I acknowledge that America was attacked by jihadists.

I havn't yet acknowledged that the buildings fell the way they did simply because 1 or 2 floors initially failed.

I use the terms conservation of momentum and energy because I don't know what else to call them.

These forces would have been working on 9-11 too, right?

_________________

I really don't want you to hijack this thread. If you are curious about me personally, than start a new thread and I will respond there.

Thanks.
 
The "pile driver" that you speak of is a lot denser. Although it is made out of the same materials the bottom has lots of air space. The top at the collapse front is a compact mass of concrete, steel and everything else that was on those floors.

That makes sense.

But, wouldn't the densely compacted floor masses remain somewhat intact when they reached the ground?

Is it fair to assume that they were crushed upon impact with the ground?

Also, could some please address the paper I sourced awhile back.

Fall times were calculated to over 25 seconds. Where did the author go wrong in considering conservation of momentum and energy?
 
That makes sense.

But, wouldn't the densely compacted floor masses remain somewhat intact when they reached the ground?

Is it fair to assume that they were crushed upon impact with the ground?

Also, could some please address the paper I sourced awhile back.

Fall times were calculated to over 25 seconds. Where did the author go wrong in considering conservation of momentum and energy?
Well they largely did. Remember what you see of the "piles" is only the loose tops. Most of the compacted mass would have been in the basements that went several floors underground.

This link brings you to lots of pictures that show just how compacted the piles were.

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/photo&videoresources
 
Well they largely did. Remember what you see of the "piles" is only the loose tops. Most of the compacted mass would have been in the basements that went several floors underground.

This link brings you to lots of pictures that show just how compacted the piles were.

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/photo&videoresources

I couldnt find the pictures of compacted floors.

Could you directly link me.

Thanks.
 
As far as the 25+ collapse times. When I saw them fall it didn't take that long. So far no one has shown me any reason to think explosives or anything else would be needed.

My gut feeling (I'm a builder/contractor for 30 years) was when the planes hit the buildings they were doomed and I was just glad they stood as long as they did.
 
When one object hits another, it slows down, even when gravity is the moving force.

It is my gut feeling that the lower 80 or so floors should have resisted the falling upper section enough to atleast slow the collapse well above free fall speed or near free fall speed.

I think I understand the gut feeling. When I first considered this, it also seemed counter-intuitive to me that the lower 80 floors would not have slowed the collapse more, merely by conservation of momentum.

It turns out the gut feeling is wrong. The way I found out was by solving the following illustration problem - and I invite you, if you have the time, to solve it as well:
A mass of 25 mass units is suspended 85 distance units above the ground; one distance unit is 3.75 m. Under it, there is 1 unit mass suspended every 1 distance unit, all the way to the ground.

The top mass is released and begins to fall. Whenever it hits a unit mass, it adds it to its own and is slowed accordingly - momentum must be conserved.

How long will it take the top mass to fall all the way to the ground? How long would it take the top mass to fall to the ground if there were no masses suspended under it? (Gravitational acceleration is 9.81 m*s-2.)​
This is, of course, a very simple model, and cannot be accurately used to represent WTC collapse. But it is sufficient to illustrate the magnitude of the effect of conservation of momentum on slowing down the collapse, and to show that it's not quite what one might intuitively expect.

(Although it's always better to solve these problems oneself, I understand that sometimes people just don't have the time or they lack experience in mechanics. For those, I have included the solution behind the spoiler tag.)
Time to fall to the ground through all masses: 10.22 s
If there were no masses to hit: 8.06 s
 
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I acknowledge that America was attacked by jihadists.

I havn't yet acknowledged that the buildings fell the way they did simply because 1 or 2 floors initially failed.

I use the terms conservation of momentum and energy because I don't know what else to call them.

These forces would have been working on 9-11 too, right?

_________________

I really don't want you to hijack this thread. If you are curious about me personally, than start a new thread and I will respond there.

Thanks.


No, I'll behave. It's your thread. I ask you to cut me some slack because we get so many twoofers who are "just asking questions," and the questions always lead to ancient rubbish that's been debunked a thousand times.

To me, your fourth sentence is a red flag. Yes, all of the physical laws that govern the universe were working just fine on the day of the jihadist attacks. You should know that when fantasists pretend that the mainstream account of the events of the day violates the laws of physics they're just being stupid and dishonest. But, I'm probably becoming a little paranoid myself.
 
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Happy B-day rwguinn!!!

Sizzler:

I have a question. Since you, like millions of other people, saw the towers fall after the impacts of the jet airliners, what makes you doubt that the towers fell as a result of the plane impacts and the fires afterward? Or do you agree that the plane impacts and the fires were the cause?

Thanks

TAM:)
 
Yes. It fell in about four seconds less than the free-fall speed for an object of its cross-section. I can dig out my calculations of that if you need them.

The four second difference was the resistance the building gave to being crushed, which resistance was overwhelmed by the quickly growing momentum of the falling mass.
Er, did you really mean to say four seconds less, not more? Or am I simply misunderstanding what you are talking about? :confused:
 
120 mph = 176 feet per second

I don't understand your test analogy. Why 40%??


I've seen near-freefall speed claims debunked in two ways.

1. The collapse wasnt near free-fall

2. Although it collapsed at near-free fall, that is to be expected.

I'm just unclear which one is more correct.


why not think of it this way? if the impact with the ground was delayed by four seconds. and the terminal velocity at free fall impact would lets say be 120 mph. Than if you looked up you would see the delayed collapse wave 700 feet behind the freefall impact.

(edit) or maybe even 128 feet lower than 704 feet because it has not accelerated to 120 mph yet? help me out here.
 
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journal of 9/11 truth is a fraud spreading misinformation on 9/11; Fraud

I found a paper that describes the issue I have with progressive collapse times of 15 seconds.

I can't post links yet so I will post a quote from Jones' paper where he cites the paper I am talking about.

Kuttler paper is this one:

Estimates for time to collapse of WTC1

can be found at journal of 9-11 studies.

I am of course skeptical of this paper because it isn't from a legit peer reviewed journal.

But, could you let me know where Kuttler goes wrong.

Why is the conservation of momentum and energy not interpreted in this fashion by Bazant or Greening?

Are Kuttler's estimations flawed? And if so, in layman terms, how?

again thanks guys for helping me out.
A good understanding of gravity and collision helps understand 9/11.
You can use Dr. Greenings papers and other real papers to understand, and if you take the time, you can plot the speed and energy of the collapse.

What is stopping you from dropping your bowling ball? I think you will have a better understanding of gravity and collisions if you do it! But when that ball goes through that car roof below...

Kuttler - WTC7 time? If you take the time east mechanical penthouse falls into the WTC7, you have over 15 seconds for WTC7 to collapse. So Kuttler is out to lunch on this one. So 15 seconds is more than Kettler's top time! Oops, we have more of the truth if you look it up yourself and stop listening to the liars of 9/11 hearsay BS junkies, called 9/11 truth. Why do they not tell the whole story?
 
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Aye, happy birthday RWG.

Where are you taking us for your birthday pint then?
 
Hi Sizzler,

Kuttler makes some very questionable statements and assumptions on the way to a 25-second calculated collapse time.

The concrete was not crushed to dust as Kuttler states. The dust that was ejected in clouds during the collapse was composed primarily of crushed drywall, not concrete. So, where did the concrete go? Most of it stayed in the falling mass and in the debris pile, crushed into various sized fragments. Some of that crushing probably happened when the debris hit the ground; that is, not all of the energy that crushed the concrete was expended above the ground where its loss would have slowed the collapse. The collapse slowed to zero (that is, expended all its remaining kinetic energy) when the debris hit the ground, and that's most likely when a lot of the crushing of the debris, including the concrete, took place.

Kuttler's reasoning (I'm not checking his calculations; that's something that peer reviewers are supposed to do, and if you don't trust the peer reviewers at j911studies to do so, you should contact them with your concerns) is reasonable through the "floating floor" model portion of the letter. However, shortly after that, he starts going wrong in a big way:

Consider a collision between the solid material from the conglomeration of falling floors with floor j − 1. It is only necessary to consider the solid material above this floor because the dust and other ejected material is either suspended in air or has been thrown out of the way and does not contribute to the collision.


Thus, the crushed material disappears from Kuttler's calculations, whether it has been ejected or not, due to the silly idea that it would be "suspended in air." The entire upper portion of a huge building smashes down upon an acre-sized concrete floor, supposedly crushing it to dust. Where is the air that the dust is supposed to now be suspended in? Ejected fine material would be suspended in air, sure, but not much of the concrete was ejected, and it wasn't crushed to dust in the first place. So the mass is still there, and it's not floating in air, it's entrained in the downward-moving flow of the falling mass, and its mass and momentum still count!

Things really get absurd when Kuttler adds k and r into his model. Kuttler calculates a fraction of the entire falling mass (which varies in proportion to the kinetic energy of the mass, based on a proportionality constant k) is ejected and/or crushed at each floor. Note that this implies that if the collapse got going fast enough or accumulated enough falling mass, the total falling mass would start decreasing. In other words, he's building negative feedback on the collapse speed into his model with no justification that those phenomena actually existed. (All this is based on his original false notions that (a) most of the concrete turns to fine dust, and (b) the dust that is not ejected has no effective weight.) He then adjusts k until the model shows an arbitrary fraction of "solid mass" remaining after the collapse, and both his k and the fraction of the mass remaining after the collapse keep changing subsequently as he adds other elements to the model. This makes no logical sense.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
Sizzler:

My calculations take care of momentum AND energy conservation. In fact they are BASED on momentum and energy conservation! Each impact DOES slow the descent a little, but the downward velocity increases overall, (just not as much as the free fall case).

For free fall through one story height of 3.7 meters we have velocities of 8.52 m/s after 3.7 meters; 12.05 m/s after 7.4 meters; 14.76 m/s after 11.1 meters; 17.04 m/s after 14.8 meters... and so on.

Now with floor resistance leading to a drain on the KE of 1 GJ for each floor we have a reduction of the free fall velocity at each impact:

For WTC 1 for example:

For the first impact after a drop of 3.7 meters by a mass of say 58 x 10^6 kg the KE is 2.1 GJ. If the energy to collapse the first impacted floor is 1 GJ we still have about 1 GJ of kinetic energy remaining. Now we can work backwards and calculate the new velocity of the upper section as it continues on to the second impact. Using KE = 1/2 Mv^2 we have:

v = Sqrt { 2E/M} or v = 5.87 m/s.

The descending mass now falls the next 3.7 meters starting from an initial velocity of 5.87 m/s (Not zero!). Now we can use:

v = Sqrt{(5.870^2 + (2g x 3.7)} = 10.34 m/s

Hence the upper block strikes the 2nd floor with a velocity of 10.34 m/s

For free fall this velocity, as we have seen, would be = 12.05 m/s

So the collapse continues "at near free fall speed" even though the structure offered great resistance!

You see Sizzler, you HAVE TO plough through calculations like this to REALLY look at the collapse. Just saying I THINK the collapse should have been arrested, or I think it should have slowed is not going to help you understand the collapse...........
 
Sizzler:

E1 is difficult to calculate from first principles but it is a nice parameter to work with. All I can say is that if you set E1 ~ 0.6 GJ for the uppermost impacted floor you will have a collapse with an acceleration ~ 3/4 g for WTC 2 and ~ 2/3 of g for WTC 1 which matches the observed initial rates of collapse of these towers.

These days, (though not in my original paper!), I assume E1 is proportional to the effective column area per floor. Now there is data available on this which shows that the core column area varied from about 2 m^2 at floor 90 to about 10 M^2 at floor 20. For this reason I have run my progran with E1 increasing linearly down the tower so that it is 5 times larger at the bottom than at the top. Guess what? When you do this the collapses are still self-sustaining - they just take a few seconds longer!

Hi Apollo,

The core cross-sectional area at floor 6 is 8.3 times that of floor 97, and 13.5 times that of floor 105 (the weakest floor).

/Greg
 

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