More than one god in the Bible?

[Hokulele]

I am surprised no one has mentioned Genesis 1:26.

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Who is God talking to, the mouse in his pocket? In all the rest of Genesis, God refers to himself in the first person. For example, this is in Genesis 2:18.

And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

 

[a_unique_person]

Excerpts
Israel (disambiguation)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Israel (Hebrew ישׂראל Yisra'el or Yiśrā’ēl, meaning "Upright (with) God") was the name given to the Biblical patriarch Jacob.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_(disambiguation)

El, in this case, being the name of one god.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(god)

Ēl (אל) is a Northwest Semitic word and name translated into English as either 'god' or 'God' or left untranslated as El, depending on the context.
In the Levant as a whole, El or Il was the supreme god, the father of humankind and all creatures and the husband of the Goddess Asherah as attested in the tablets of Ugarit.
The word El was found at the top of a list of gods as the Ancient of Gods or the Father of all Gods, in the ruins of the Royal Library of the Ebla civilization, in the archaeological site of Tell Mardikh in Syria dated to 2300 BC. He may have been a desert god at some point, as the myths say that he had two wives and built a sanctuary with them and his new children in the desert. El had fathered many gods, but most important were Hadad, Yam and Mot, each of whom has similar attributes to the Greek gods Zeus, Poseidon or Ophion and Hades or Thanatos respectively. Ancient Greek mythographers identified El with Cronus (not Chronos).

 

[Skeptical Greg]

EL would work for the position of one god, if that was what we find in Genesis .. Doesn't seem to be the case ..

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1994/1/1poly94.html

Chapter one of Genesis is from the Elohist source that used Elohim [gods plural] in referring to "God." Originally, the male god was Baal, and the female god was his consort Ashtoreth. Orthodox clergymen will argue that the us and our in the creation passage are simply examples of the "royal we" used by emperors, but this rationalization is false. The book of Genesis was written before the "royal we" originated. It began with the first Roman emperor, Augustus, and included the emperor and his loyal civil administrators. Afterwards, it was sometimes used in pagan religious ceremonies in the pre-Christian Roman Empire, which at that time was polytheistic.

 

[Radrook]

Why of course .. Poetic license takes care of anything that just doesn't look right, any other way ...

Particularly when the poet is no longer around, to confirm or deny ...

That said; there is still compelling evidence the early worship of YHWH had it's roots in polytheism ..

I don't consider the scripture you say doesn't look right to not look right. Actually, I always understood that scripture as intended without ever having to seek other scriptures for a clarification. The only reason I offerred other scriptures was in response to those who claimed it doesn't look right. But certainly not because it doesn't look right to me.

BTW
Not that I am striving to deprive you of your right to view that scripture in any manner you choose. Only to say that your assumption about my motives is wayyy off the mark.

 

[Radrook]

EL would work for the position of one god, if that was what we find in Genesis .. Doesn't seem to be the case ..

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1994/1/1poly94.html

I find your sources claim that orthodox theologians attribute the "us" in Genesis as an "us" of excellence instead of literal number in order to defend their one God idea a bit strange. The reason I find this unusual is that in my discussions concerning the Trinity claim, to which most orthodox theologians adhere, they use those same Genesis verses as proof of their Trinitarian views. That is to say that God the Father was Speaking to God the Son and that this doesn't constitute two individual persons but are but two facets of one.


Now, from a non-Trinitarian viewpoint the use of the pronoun "us" is literal. That is to say, God was actually speaking to another person. That person, from this viewpoint, wasn't another god but was the Son of God Jesus in his pre-human form.

In Proverbs 8 wisdom is personified, and is understood to describe Jesus' part in creation.

John 1:1 Is translated often as "the Word was divine" "was godlike" "was a god"

KJV

Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Revelation and other scriptures also tell us that all things were created through him. So this is another way to look at the word "us" as used in Genesis.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

I don't consider the scripture you say doesn't look right to not look right. Actually, I always understood that scripture as intended without ever having to seek other scriptures for a clarification. The only reason I offerred other scriptures was in response to those who claimed it doesn't look right. But certainly not because it doesn't look right to me.

BTW
Not that I am striving to deprive you of your right to view that scripture in any manner you choose. Only to say that your assumption about my motives is wayyy off the mark.

Pehaps Dogmeat, who I was responding to, will discuss that further with you .. He ( ?) is the one who was suggesting poetic license would take care of the allusion to other gods in the commandments .

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think considering the era the Bible passage was written (who knows when it was started as a verbal history), it looks like there was a lot of competition for my gods vs your gods. I think of that business about the Egyptian queen who told everyone Ra was to be the new top god. Later the people rebelled and went back to the previous top gods. "My god is most powerful, THEREFORE I'M IN CHARGE". That would imply, "Have no other gods before me", was intended to say Moses' god was the most powerful, therefore Moses was in charge.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I can recommend "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong if any of you would like to read up on this stuff. She is a Christian too, so the book has very little religion-bashing. Even if it does cover several world religions. It is interesting even (especially?) for a non-believer like myself to see how the concept of God has changed and evolved through history from the tribal God mentioned here who is obviously competing in a "polytheistic marketplace", through to the Gods of today.

Interesting indeed. I would add a chapter if she hasn't to describe the current redefining of a god as one which is outside the realm of the Universe and that explains why there is no evidence for God. God fails to move mountains, change the definition to a god who doesn't move mountains and then of course suggest that has always been the definition of God.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Lost and Hidden Christianity

in 1945, a collection of over 40 Coptic texts, ranging in likely date, was found at Nag Hammadi in Upper Egypt.

These texts included books purporting to preserve Jesus’s secret teachings, as well as gospels supposedly written by his disciples, by his twin brother Thomas and by his brother James. These texts, in addition to other related texts found elsewhere, are collectively called the 'Gnostic Gospels'. ...

...the Gnostic Gospels were determined to be theologically problematic, with their mentions of multiple gods and the creation of an evil world.

No comment needed.

 

[Radrook]

I think considering the era the Bible passage was written (who knows when it was started as a verbal history), it looks like there was a lot of competition for my gods vs your gods. I think of that business about the Egyptian queen who told everyone Ra was to be the new top god. Later the people rebelled and went back to the previous top gods. "My god is most powerful, THEREFORE I'M IN CHARGE". That would imply, "Have no other gods before me", was intended to say Moses' god was the most powerful, therefore Moses was in charge.

Since Moses was the author of the first five biblical books then one would have to base one's conclusion on what Moses's concept of the universe as created by God was when he made that statement and not on the beliefs of an Egyptian society that did not subscribe to his clearly-stated views. In short, we can't separate Moses from what he himself revealed he knew, and if we read his writings then we see that Moses knew full-well that there were no other literal living gods created or in existence but merely concepts of gods which people invented after the Adamic rebelliuon and were subsequently represented by idols.


BTW

He also had written about rebel angels known as sons of God. But as for literal living gods roaming around because God created them-zilch. Such a view would have put him in full contradiction with what he had been previously written


Moses and the Pentateuch
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2000/3/003moses.html

Excerpt

Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch
From Theopedia

The Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch is a view that understands Moses to be the main author of the Pentateuch (i.e. the first five books of the Bible). This belief has received criticism, mostly in the last 200 years, yet remains supported by both Scripture and early tradition. The conclusion is not that Moses wrote all of the Pentateuch, but that he had a major hand in not only its writing and development, but even its composition (i.e. how it was put together).


Support from Jesus
Jesus divided the Old Testament into three sections in Luke 24:27, 44: Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.

in Mark 10:4-8, Jesus quoted Gen. 2:24 as coming from Moses.

In Mark 7:10, Jesus quoted the Ten Commandments as coming from Moses.

In Mark 10:3 Jesus refers to Deut. 24:1f as being from Moses,

and in Matt. 8:4 Jesus quoted Lev. 14 as coming from Moses. [1]

http://www.theopedia.com/Mosaic_authorship_of_the_Pentateuch

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Since Moses was the author of the first five biblical books then one would have to base one's conclusion on what Moses's concept of the universe as created by God was when he made that statement and not on the beliefs of an Egyptian society that did not subscribe to his clearly-stated views.

In what language did Moses supposedly write ?

 

[Radrook]

In what language did Moses supposedly write ?

Languages of the Bible
http://www.bible.gen.nz/amos/language/languages.htm

BTW

Moses was not an uneducated or undereducated peasant. He had been brought up by Pharoah's daughter with all the educational advantages which that would have entailed.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

There appears to be an objective summary of the leading scholarly view points on who wrote the Bible here on The Straight Dope.

As time went on, however, scholars became increasingly skeptical of the idea of Moses as single author. Among their objections:

* Several stories are repeated, with different characters or different emphasis (called "doublets"). For instance, there are two creation stories (Gen 1 and Gen 2). There are three stories of a patriarch traveling among pagans and pretending his wife is his sister. There are two stories of Moses striking a rock to produce water. There are two versions of the Ten Commandments (one in Exodus, one that Moses recaps in Deuteronomy) with slightly different wording. There are, in fact, a lot of these doublets.

* There are internal inconsistencies. The number of days of the Flood story don't add up right. At one point, Noah takes two of each animal; at another point, he takes two of some, seven of others. Joseph is sold into slavery to Ishmaelites in one verse, to Midianites a few verses later. The Mountain of Revelation is sometimes called Sinai and sometimes Horeb. Moses' father-in-law is sometimes called Yitro and sometimes Ruel, and so on.

Scholars in late 18th century Germany noted that in most of the duplicated stories, one set described God using the Hebrew word Elohim (usually translated "God") while the other set tended to use God's four-lettered Name Y-H-W-H (usually translated "Lord," sometimes miscalled "Jehovah.") This gave rise to the theory that there were two different authors, one called E and one called J (German for Y), whose works were somehow combined to form a single text.

Later analysis of the grammar, vocabulary, and writing style provided evidence for two other authors--called P for the Priestly author (mostly Leviticus, and lots of the genealogy) and D for the Deuteronomist, since the book of Deuteronomy seemed different (grammatically and politically) from the earlier books. The multiple-author view has come to be called the "Documentary theory."

We interject at this point to say that traditionalists have answers to all the points raised by Documentary scholars......

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Nothing in your post, Rad, supports your rationale that Moses was only referring to a single god and of course he would say the Biblical God was superior to all other gods so claiming every other supernatural being described in the Bible was made by God only confirms the belief at the time there were lots of gods.

 

[ChuckHash]

Omnipotent or not

"...God had two choices..." - Radrook
"...God could not have it both ways..." - Radrook

Seems like quite a limited 'God'.

Any discussion of a being who is omnipotent and omniscient is going to end up getting quite silly.
You have to accept that either it's beyond discussion, or it's a load of old poppycock. Either way, shouldn't we rather discuss something that can be discussed? How about the issue of why it matters to people whether there is one God or many Gods... or None.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Languages of the Bible
http://www.bible.gen.nz/amos/language/languages.htm

BTW

Moses was not an uneducated or undereducated peasant. He had been brought up by Pharoah's daughter with all the educational advantages which that would have entailed.

I didn't ask about the languages in the Bible .

Your claim that Moses wrote anything cannot be substantiated, and it is unlikely he wrote anything that we now see in the bible.

Moses existence is suspect, much less his education..

 

[Radrook]

I didn't ask about the languages in the Bible .

Your claim that Moses wrote anything cannot be substantiated, and it is unlikely he wrote anything that we now see in the bible.

Moses existence is suspect, much less his education..

What languages were you asking about?


Reality as perceived itself can be and is metaphysically suspected making all suspicions themselves suspect. In any case, suspicion per say means nothing. The moon landing by the USA is suspected. Some people suspect that the earth isn't round but is actually flat. Others suspect the USDA government blew up the Twin Towers in order to invade Iraq.

Actually, I understand that the Bible writings are the focus of suspicion with attempted substantiation of those suspicions by the suspicious. However, I also understand that not everyone agrees with the suspicious and provide counter-arguments in reference to those suspicions.

Now, in this controversy, we either side with the suspicious or with the non-suspicious via giving more credence to the pro-suspicious argument or to the pro-biblical non-suspicious argument. You obviously have chosen the former and I the latter.

Mosaic Authorship of the Pentateuch—Tried and True
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/13

 

[Radrook]

"...God had two choices..." - Radrook
"...God could not have it both ways..." - Radrook

Seems like quite a limited 'God'.

Any discussion of a being who is omnipotent and omniscient is going to end up getting quite silly. You have to accept that either it's beyond discussion, or it's a load of old poppycock. Either way, shouldn't we rather discuss something that can be discussed? How about the issue of why it matters to people whether there is one God or many Gods... or None.

You are using a silly false dillema:

1. Either accept beyond discussiuon
2. Or declare poppycock

You fail to mention a third possibility.

Accept as truth.

Is that third possibility really a possibility you ask? Well, if it wasn't there wouldn't be religionists now would there?

About God seeming limited-try to keep in mind that all problems aren't amnenable to the application of brute force. Maybe if we recognized this on some level we wouldn't try to solve all problems militarily and would spare ourselves a world of frustration.

BTW

The best way to not discuss a subject deemed unworthy is to not discuss it. Make sense?

 

[Radrook]

Nothing in your post, Rad, supports your rationale that Moses was only referring to a single god .....

Really?

so claiming every other supernatural being described in the Bible was made by God only confirms the belief at the time there were lots of gods.

What was written about those supernatural beings was that they were rebel angels. Such rebel angels were not literally the supernatural entities believed in by the gentiles and were never referred to as gods by the Israelites or the scriptures.

They were referred to as angels and as "sons of God" but never as gods. Neither are angels ever described as taking part in creating the universe or the earth but are merely depicted as observers who applaude in praise after the task is accomplished.

 

[Prometheus]

About God seeming limited-try to keep in mind that all problems aren't amnenable to the application of brute force.

I once heard this line used in an argument between an atheist and a Catholic priest. The atheist tried to bait the priest with the old, "Can God create a rock so heavy he can't move it?" line, and the priest responded, "Of course. Then if he wants to move the rock to the left, he'll just move everything else to the right...."