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I need all debunkers I can get!

You are a genious. Thanks a lot. Nobel prize coming up!

Just like the Pulitzer Prize that awaits the journalist who uncovers the big 911 inside job.

Have you contacted a media outlet, anywhere in the world, with your slam-dunk evidence of an inside job?
 
So NIST suggests that the WTC1 top part tilted before collapse ensued and that the videos showing the mast dropping first is some sort of illusion - due to the tilting of the roof.
But if the top part tilted - why isn't the mast tilting? It is upright on all videos from all directions.

Actually, you should take your own advice and look more closely, and at more videos. I have yet to see a single video that really shows the antenna dropping first. Every one that I've seen and looked at frame by frame shows the antenna and the top of the roof moving downward in exactly the same frame. But what I have seen is several versions of "truther analysis" that take two frame grabs from videos shot from the north side and use pixel counts to show that the antenna appears to have fallen farther than the roof. But that doesn't mean it started falling first -- that's just slopply thinking, and it's particularly stupid to claim that when the very same videos show the antenna and the roof starting to move in the very same frames. The simple explanation that's eluding you is that the top of the entire tower is tilting southward, away from the cameras on the north side. Are you familiar with the concept of perspective?

Furthermore, when you say the antenna is "upright on all videos from all directions," you're simply proving that you haven't really looked at very many videos, and apparently not a single one that wasn't shot from the north side.

My advice to you -- which I'm sure you'll ignore, but I'll offer it anyway -- is that you need to start over and learn more about what happened before you set out to impress the world with your opinions about how and why it happened.
 
So the WTC1 mast is either tilting straight away from or straight towards the cameras on all videos and that it's why we don't see the tilting of the mast - even if NIST sees the tilting of the roof? When records from east and west vantage points were viewed, it was apparent that the building section above the impact area tilted to the south as the building collapsed." (NIST 2005) Sounds strange. Or are you quoting from WTC2?

Because if the roof - or for that matter the whole mass above - is tilting to the south, we must assume that the whole south wall (not very hot) has buckled - 59 perimeter columns - and I cannot see that. But let's assume that it happen about 50 meters below the roof at floor 94.

The stresses in these wall columns are very low - 22.5% of yield stress - and it is a mystery that all 59 are suddenly buckling. Where did the energy come from to raise the stresses so that alleged buckling failure could occur? From the potential energy released? Too small! The mass has hardly shifted at all. But let's forget that.

It means that the center of gravity of the mass above has shifted sideways and that the south wall above the buckled wall is outside of the south wall below. What would you expect to happen then?

For once I would expect the mast to fall sideways towards south. On at least one video. Otherwise the tilting as suggested by NIST of WTC1 cannot be correct. And then I would assume that the south wall above the rupture zone would continue to tilt to the south and pull the mass above further south ... etc. Not that what appears to be an explosion occuring inside blowing floors 94-96 to pieces throwing the walls >60 meters sideways and the floors upwards. That is not how a global collapse (downwards) starts!

Read my childrens piece once again! http://heiwaco.tripod.com/nist.htm
 
So the WTC1 mast is either tilting straight away from or straight towards the cameras on all videos and that it's why we don't see the tilting of the mast - even if NIST sees the tilting of the roof? When records from east and west vantage points were viewed, it was apparent that the building section above the impact area tilted to the south as the building collapsed." (NIST 2005) Sounds strange. Or are you quoting from WTC2?

Because if the roof - or for that matter the whole mass above - is tilting to the south, we must assume that the whole south wall (not very hot) has buckled - 59 perimeter columns - and I cannot see that. But let's assume that it happen about 50 meters below the roof at floor 94.

The stresses in these wall columns are very low - 22.5% of yield stress - and it is a mystery that all 59 are suddenly buckling. Where did the energy come from to raise the stresses so that alleged buckling failure could occur? From the potential energy released? Too small! The mass has hardly shifted at all. But let's forget that.

It means that the center of gravity of the mass above has shifted sideways and that the south wall above the buckled wall is outside of the south wall below. What would you expect to happen then?

For once I would expect the mast to fall sideways towards south. On at least one video. Otherwise the tilting as suggested by NIST of WTC1 cannot be correct. And then I would assume that the south wall above the rupture zone would continue to tilt to the south and pull the mass above further south ... etc. Not that what appears to be an explosion occuring inside blowing floors 94-96 to pieces throwing the walls >60 meters sideways and the floors upwards. That is not how a global collapse (downwards) starts!

Read my childrens piece once again! http://heiwaco.tripod.com/nist.htm

What you personally see happening is irrelevant to reality. The south wall was burning for the entire 102 minute event. The walls were bowing inwards as much as 5 feet! It's obvious that the south wall unloaded and initiated collapse, just as the east wall of WTC2 did.

WTC1 South Face:
6-45_wtc1-south-face.jpg


Oh, and here's the antenna leaning.
6-11_wtc1-collapsing-wnbc.jpg
 
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See, this is what I was talking about. Clear evidence regarding your claims about the mast. Sadly, it does not support what you describe. Why does everyone else see one thing and you see something entirely different? Does this make you feel special?

SN Kage, USN
 
So the WTC1 mast is either tilting straight away from or straight towards the cameras on all videos and that it's why we don't see the tilting of the mast - even if NIST sees the tilting of the roof? When records from east and west vantage points were viewed, it was apparent that the building section above the impact area tilted to the south as the building collapsed." (NIST 2005) Sounds strange. Or are you quoting from WTC2?

Ever heard the term "invincible ignorance?" Apparently, I wasn't able to shame you into looking at this stuff a little more carefully before blathering on. All videos from the side that show the antenna at all show the antenna leaning southward. In many of them, it's hard to tell what the roof is doing at the same time because of the smoke, but here's one from the northeast that does show the northwest corner of the roof clearly:

http://www.studyof911.com/video/files/wtc1_coll_NE_01.wmv

And here's an enlarged and slowed-down animation of the first few frames of the collapse, clearly showing that the northwest corner starts moving at exactly the same time as the antenna:

Ant1.gif


And as I said, despite your preference for spewing more ignorance instead of taking another look, even the videos from the north that don't show the tilt do show that corner starting to move at the same time as the antenna:

Ant2.gif


Because if the roof - or for that matter the whole mass above - is tilting to the south, we must assume that the whole south wall (not very hot) has buckled - 59 perimeter columns - and I cannot see that.

And I think we've established that you haven't looked very hard, either. The fuzziness of your thinking here is in assuming that all 59 perimeter columns had to fail at exactly the same instance. Try to imagine, instead, removing the columns one at a time over a period of many minutes. Each time you remove a column, its load gets transferred to adjacent columns. Eventually, you get to the point where all the load is being carried by very few columns, yet the building is still standing. Now keep removing them. If you don't think that catastrophic buckling of those last few columns could then happen very suddenly, with very little resistance to the falling section, then you simply don't know enough about the subject to discuss it intelligently. The columns weren't removed, of course, but this is a much closer approximation to what actually happened, as more and more columns slowly bowed inward several feet, than your speculations about the implausibility of 59 columns failing "simultaneously."

It means that the center of gravity of the mass above has shifted sideways and that the south wall above the buckled wall is outside of the south wall below. What would you expect to happen then?

What I would expect to happen as the top section began to tilt is that the falling side would be trying to lift the opposite side up, using the core columns and a few side perimeter columns as a fulcrum, so all of the load of the top section would then be on those columns. I would also expect that the tilting would move the center of mass toward the failed side, so the load would not be equally distributed on those columns, either; it would be heavier on that side of the core than it was on the opposite side of the core -- a combined effect that progressed farther and father toward the failed side as the tilt progressed. Since the core was designed only as a gravity frame, with a standard 1.67 factor of safety, I would not expect the core columns on that side and the few perimeter columns involved to withstand both the overloading and the bending (since bending would reduce their carrying capacity, in addition to any heat effects from the fire). So, I would expect those columns to fail next, quickly followed by the failure of the remaining core columns (for the same reasons), quickly followed by the failure of the remaining perimeter columns. In short, "progressive horizontal failure."

Oddly enough, what I would expect to happen seems to be exactly what did happen. On the other hand, you seem to be starting from a very fuzzy understanding of what happened, and then expecting people to be mystified (but impressed) with your own inability to explain why it happened.

For once I would expect the mast to fall sideways towards south. On at least one video. Otherwise the tilting as suggested by NIST of WTC1 cannot be correct. And then I would assume that the south wall above the rupture zone would continue to tilt to the south and pull the mass above further south ... etc.

Once the last perimeter columns failed and the entire top started down, that top section was actually trying to rotate around it's center of mass, with very little southward inertia having developed during the initial tilting. The last views of the antenna show that the top was still rotating after the total collapse began, and the center of mass did continue southward somewhat, but with the building being over 200 feet wide, the center of mass never got very close to the edge of the building before the entire top had been destroyed.

Not that what appears to be an explosion occuring inside blowing floors 94-96 to pieces throwing the walls >60 meters sideways and the floors upwards. That is not how a global collapse (downwards) starts!

It doesn't look like an "explosion" to me -- certainly not high explosives like TNT or RDX. The characteristic of those explosives is that a cloud of smoke expands very rapidly (because it's the high velocity of the pressure wave that makes those explosives destructive), and which then slows down. What we see in the collapse is a cloud of smoke and flames exiting the building at nowhere near the velocity of explosives, and then speeding up -- exactly what we would expect if it's being driven by air being forced out of the building by the collapse.

Read my childrens piece once again! http://heiwaco.tripod.com/nist.htm

No thanks; all it takes is a few paragraphs to realize that your "childres piece" is based on sloppy research and fuzzy thinking. Apparently, that doesn't bother you at all. If you're going to write fantasies for children, I suggest sticking to magical bunnies and talking trains, since kids outgrow that sort of nonsense. The paranoid conspiracy theories are much harder to shake, and they're poisonous to rational thinking. You are spreading BS.
 
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The fuzziness of your thinking here is in assuming that all 59 perimeter columns had to fail at exactly the same instance. Try to imagine, instead, removing the columns one at a time over a period of many minutes. Each time you remove a column, its load gets transferred to adjacent columns. Eventually, you get to the point where all the load is being carried by very few columns, yet the building is still standing. Now keep removing them. If you don't think that catastrophic buckling of those last few columns could then happen very suddenly, with very little resistance to the falling section, then you simply don't know enough about the subject to discuss it intelligently. The columns weren't removed, of course, but this is a much closer approximation to what actually happened, as more and more columns slowly bowed inward several feet, than your speculations about the implausibility of 59 columns failing "simultaneously."

...

Once the last perimeter columns failed and the entire top started down, that top section was actually trying to rotate around it's center of mass, with very little southward inertia having developed during the initial tilting. The last views of the antenna show that the top was still rotating after the total collapse began, and the center of mass did continue southward somewhat, but with the building being over 200 feet wide, the center of mass never got very close to the edge of the building before the entire top had been destroyed.

If you read my article you find that the compressive stress in the perimeter wall columns is 22.5% of yield. None of the columns are heated >500°C and will therefore not lose any strength to start buckling = being 'removed' one a time = transferring the load to an adjacent column.

Or do you suggest that the whole south wall was pulled inwards by the floors that in turn were pulled down by the core that had lost its support due some local collapse? The latter I doubt very much because the bolted floor connections to the core columns will shear off first.

And why would the entire top suddenly be destroyed. In a few seconds! It seems, in fact, that the entire top is suddenly destroyed ... and then the whole mass above is in pieces and its mass cannot extert any load on the structure below.

In my view the energy to destroy the entire top cannot have been its own inherent potential energy. It is as simple as that. It is to much strain energy built into the top - 1000's of spandrels, 1000's of floor bolts and plenty of columns.

Imagine that the 'entire top' rests on the ground (and not on the 94th floor) and that the 94 th floor becomes the 'ground floor'.

Start removing the wall columns at the new ground floor until the top starts to tilt. What happens then? Does the 'entire top' suddenly destroy itself? In one second?

OK, assume it does! What happens to the ground?
 
If you read my article you find that the compressive stress in the perimeter wall columns is 22.5% of yield. None of the columns are heated >500°C and will therefore not lose any strength to start buckling = being 'removed' one a time = transferring the load to an adjacent column.

As a past surface engineer and a current blacksmith/industrial smithy, I can tell you that if you heat steel up to 500 degrees Celsius, the integrity will have decreased notably. You used to forge swords at 500 degrees in the past, just imagine what might happen when such heated steel would've had tons and tons of weight ontop of it to support. It wasn't designed to keep its structural integrity at those temperatures, not even 500 degrees if we assume this is the case for arguments sake.

Steel looses some 25-35% of its integrity at 500 degrees Celsius, if I had to guess. Hence, it shouldn't be too hard to assume that this would be a disasterous state of integrity for any column or truss in any given skyscraper. The WTC's did suffer temperatures higher than so. You'd be surprized how hot it can get in the most common fires, not to mention large office fires.
I certainly accept the given reports of the temperatures in the WTC having reached a bit higher, since it is not uncommon for regular office fires sans any jet fuel to reach beyond 1000 degrees Celsius.

Figure 1 shows the various nominal fire curves for comparison. It can be seen that, over a period of 2 hours, the hydrocarbon fire is the most severe followed by the standard fire, with the external fire being the least severe fire although the slow heating fire represents the lowest temperature up to 30 minutes. It is noteworthy that for standard and smouldering fires, the temperature continuously increases with increasing time. For the external fire, the temperature remains constant at 680°C after approximately 22 minutes. whereas for the hydrocarbon fires, the temperatures remain constant at 1100°C and 1120°C after approximate 40 minutes.

http://www.mace.manchester.ac.uk/project/research/structures/strucfire/Design/
performance/fireModelling/nominalFireCurves/default.htm

There you go.

Or do you suggest that the whole south wall was pulled inwards by the floors that in turn were pulled down by the core that had lost its support due some local collapse? The latter I doubt very much because the bolted floor connections to the core columns will shear off first.

Well, the South Tower's collapse revealed that the core stood for a brief time after the floors and remaining structure had collapsed around, above and below it.
http://www.indybay.org/olduploads/wtc_core.mpg
 
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Truther engineering is a laugh.

If you read my article you find that the compressive stress in the perimeter wall columns is 22.5% of yield. None of the columns are heated >500°C and will therefore not lose any strength to start buckling = being 'removed' one a time = transferring the load to an adjacent column.
Wow, you can do averages and divide things. Impressive. Now run an analysis on what moments would be induced in the adjacent columns (of a column that failed) including a p-delta analysis. There is alot more going on than just compressive forces redistributing. The induced moments are significant and controlling, especially in a multiple column failure event.


Or do you suggest that the whole south wall was pulled inwards by the floors that in turn were pulled down by the core that had lost its support due some local collapse? The latter I doubt very much because the bolted floor connections to the core columns will shear off first.

That's almost exactly the case. What do you think would happen when a core column would fail? What magical forces hold it up?


In my view the energy to destroy the entire top cannot have been its own inherent potential energy. It is as simple as that. It is to much strain energy built into the top - 1000's of spandrels, 1000's of floor bolts and plenty of columns.

In my view, there is enough potential energy to overcome the strain energy. I even did the calculations to prove it, you can see them here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97584 I'd like to know if you even bothered to do calculations. Based on how you figured out what the yield stress in the columns will be after a failure, I can't imagine they would be anything accurate though.

Imagine that the 'entire top' rests on the ground (and not on the 94th floor) and that the 94 th floor becomes the 'ground floor'.

Start removing the wall columns at the new ground floor until the top starts to tilt. What happens then? Does the 'entire top' suddenly destroy itself? In one second?

OK, assume it does! What happens to the ground?

The upper block would fail similarly to what happened on 9/11, assuming you also damaged some of the core columns. It wouldn't be exactly the same since the ground will be much stiffer than the upper stories of the lower block, but it is still going to look much the same. The edge columns of the 94th floor gives way, the upper floors tilt maybe a dozen degrees, this shears off the connections from the 94th to 95th floor and the whole thing comes down one story. The lower end of the columns on the 95th floor are now striking the debris of the 94th floor (some of it will still be mostly intact) and the ground at an angle producing vast bending moments in the first columns of the new upper block which bend and break without providing much resistance. The whole thing comes down. It doesn't magically keep tilting over about some fulcrum on the edge of the building and fall over like a tree, nor does it impact the ground/94th floor and stop without causing destruction on the floors above.
 
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As a past surface engineer and a current blacksmith/industrial smithy, I can tell you that if you heat steel up to 500 degrees Celsius, the integrity will have decreased notably. You used to forge swords at 500 degrees in the past, just imagine what might happen when such heated steel would've had tons and tons of weight ontop of it to support. It wasn't designed to keep its structural integrity at those temperatures, not even 500 degrees if we assume this is the case for arguments sake.

Steel looses some 25-35% of its integrity at 500 degrees Celsius, if I had to guess. Hence, it shouldn't be too hard to assume that this would be a disasterous state of integrity for any column or truss in any given skyscraper. The WTC's did suffer temperatures higher than so. You'd be surprized how hot it can get in the most common fires, not to mention large office fires.
I certainly accept the given reports of the temperatures in the WTC having reached a bit higher, since it is not uncommon for regular office fires sans any jet fuel to reach beyond 1000 degrees Celsius.

There you go.

Of course you use heat to shape and assemble steel (I have done it for 40 years) but the heat up at floors 94-98 was much too little to affect the structure. Read the link in my article about it.
 
What do you think would happen when a core column would fail? What magical forces hold it up?

Take core column no. 501 for example (as described in my article). Pretty heavy stuff! Cannot possibly buckle under any circumstances.
 
Take core column no. 501 for example (as described in my article). Pretty heavy stuff! Cannot possibly buckle under any circumstances.

Under any circumstances? Wow. We need to start duplicating this column design and start putting them in every building ever! Just think of the incredible things you could do with a column that can't fail, no matter what you ask it to do!
 
Under any circumstances? Wow. We need to start duplicating this column design and start putting them in every building ever! Just think of the incredible things you could do with a column that can't fail, no matter what you ask it to do!

Exactly - it never buckled. Ask then yourself how it failed!
 
Of course you use heat to shape and assemble steel (I have done it for 40 years) but the heat up at floors 94-98 was much too little to affect the structure. Read the link in my article about it.

Much too little? You can clearly see structural failings and exterior buckling between the 94-98th floor.
By default, we can assume at least that from 94th floor and above were increasing it's dependant pressure on the directly subseqent lower floors, that's way too much of pressure for the convergent floors below to handle.

NISTNCSTAR1CollapseofTowers.pdf
 
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Of course you use heat to shape and assemble steel (I have done it for 40 years) but the heat up at floors 94-98 was much too little to affect the structure. Read the link in my article about it.

What are the expected fire temps in an office/household fire?
 
Much too little? You can clearly see structural failings and exterior buckling between the 94-98th floor.
By default, we can assume at least that from 94th floor and above were increasing it's dependant pressure on the directly subseqent lower floors, that's way too much of pressure for the convergent floors below to handle.

NISTNCSTAR1CollapseofTowers.pdf

If you see any exterior column buckling, you see a miracle (or photoshop miracle). The exterior columns were much to strong and under too little compressive stress to buckle under the given circumstances.

Pls refer me to any NIST calculations showing how an exterior column would buckle, if they exist, and I will show you where they miscalculate.

I know that NIST in its FAQ appendix December 2007 suggests that 6 or 11 floors above fell down on floor 93 and overloaded it, but NIST does not explain how 4 200 or 7 700 bolts keeping these floors in place suddenly sheared off simultaneously. Another miracle?
 
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Take core column no. 501 for example (as described in my article). Pretty heavy stuff! Cannot possibly buckle under any circumstances.


Besides being absurd, that's not even what I asked. Assume a core column is severed from the plane impact. What magical forces hold the column above the severed line from falling?
 
From Heiwa's linked article....(my bolding)

"If this mass filled the total volume of the building above the initiation zone (190 000 m3), the uniform density would be 0.18 ton/m3 or the density of cotton! You could say that a big bale of cotton (mass above) rested on the structure below!"

Analogies are terrific.
 
Also from Heiwa's article....

"As soon as a floor sags, its concrete will break up in small pieces. There is no strain energy to resist bending and tension in concrete."

I'm no structural engineer and might be advised to sit out this debate, but a man has to have some fun. Why must the concrete break into 'small pieces'? As the trusses sag, the concrete will fracture somewhere along the point of the sagging arch and relieve the tension (leaving you with 2 huge pieces of concrete instead of just 1). Perhaps multiple fractures could occur depending upon the length of the truss and the amount of sagging. Once the tension has been removed, what force will continue to break up the concrete until it is in small pieces? And how does one define small pieces?
 

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