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Is there evidence your god beliefs are true while other god beliefs are false?

Wrong, Mobyseven. I'm being profoundly honest.

The question was can I think of any evidence that would lead me to not believe. And I can't think of anything. Might there be some evidence out there to lead me to not believe? - yes. But I can't think of any. If you have some please share it with me - I'd like to know what it is.

But you are also being profoundly unskeptical. Mobyseven is not wrong.

When you read the other theists or supporters of faith, are they making sense to you? From my perspective it's the atheists here who sound the most honest and understandable. The theists and apologists have a weird sort of doublespeak that makes them sound dishonest, smarmy, a little daft, angry, and attempting to avoid the question with platitudes that must sound meaningful to them.

They don't have a rational reason for believing in one god while presuming the others are wrong or don't have the whole truth that they have --or while assuming that other religions are clearly made up. In assuming your belief or god or religion is true you automatically declare the others wrong, misinformed, invalid, participants in a delusion, etc. And yet you offer no evidence why you aren't also in that category--no evidence why an atheist would presume your different than those who believe in Scientology or Mithras, or greek Gods or Plumjam. You all sound equally deluded and irrational to an atheist.

Do you make sense to each other? How do you explain plumjam's different beliefs. Why is he misguided and you are right? What about Darth? Beth? Do they sound like they are as skeptical as you? More skeptical? As likely to have part of the truth?
 
In short; NO.

The somewhat longer answer is that how am I to judge what beliefs and faiths are true or false...
 
But you are also being profoundly unskeptical. Mobyseven is not wrong.

Mobysevens comments are in response to a question I was asked along the lines of Can I imagine any evidence that would make me stop believing in anything. I answered honestly - No! But I also said there may be such evidence. But I can imagine it. If you, articulett, have some evidence to make me stop believing then please give it to me. Actually - I think I'll make a whole thread on that topic. That would be fascinating.
 
I cant believe this thread has lasted this long . . .
Is there evidence that your disbelief that this thread has lasted this long is true, while other kinds of disbelief about this thread are false?

(I think)
 
Is there evidence that your disbelief that this thread has lasted this long is true, while other kinds of disbelief about this thread are false?

(I think)

I'm sitting with Darth on this one . . . screw it . . lol;)
 
Mobysevens comments are in response to a question I was asked along the lines of Can I imagine any evidence that would make me stop believing in anything. I answered honestly - No! But I also said there may be such evidence. But I can imagine it. If you, articulett, have some evidence to make me stop believing then please give it to me. Actually - I think I'll make a whole thread on that topic. That would be fascinating.


I'm not saying I have evidence... The faithful are told they will be rewarded for having faith without evidence... and punished for losing faith. I'm saying, that the "faith is good" meme makes you unskeptical of the faith you've been inculcated with. If there is nothing that can disprove your beliefs to you even though you have clearly concluded other beliefs are wrong, then you are being profoundly unskeptical regarding your own beliefs--every believer must be to believe they have a truth which makes others incorrect.

You have looked at Greek Myths and fairies and demons and fake psychics and concluded that believers are wrong or mistaken or drawing incorrect inferences from the evidence-- but you cannot even consider the possibility that you have done so about your beliefs. That means that you ARE the opposite of skeptical when it comes to your own faith--you not as skeptical as you may be of other faiths.

The atheist concludes that all such beliefs are equally unlikely to be true-- they are all based on misperception, faith memes, confusing correlation with causation, wrongful inferences etc, because there is no evidence that any immeasurable invisible entities or forces exist and lots of evidence that people readily believe in such things anyhow for very poorly articulated reasons.
 
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I'm not saying I have evidence... The faithful are told they will be rewarded for having faith without evidence... and punished for losing faith. I'm saying, that, by definition, is a meme that makes you unskeptical of your faith. If there is nothing that can disprove your beliefs to you even though you have clearly concluded other beliefs are wrong, then you are being profoundly unskeptical regarding your own beliefs. You have looked at greek Myths and fairies and demons and fake psychics and concluded that believers are wrong or mistaken or drawing incorrect inferences from the evidence-- but you cannot even consider the possibility that you have done so. That means that you ARE the opposite of skeptical when it comes to your own faith as skeptical as you may be of other faiths.

The atheist concludes that all such beliefs are equally unlikely to be true-- they are all based on misperception, faith memes, confusing correlation with causation, wrongful inferences etc, because there is no evidence that any immeasurable invisible entities or forces exist and lots of evidence that people readily believe in such things anyhow for very poorly articulated reasons.

Meme Schmeme.
Can't you see that that's a nonsensical concept?

It could just as easily be argued that the ideas lying behind the scientific method are a whole bunch of memes.
Would that invalidate the scientific method?
No. It wouldn't.
Stop parroting Dawkins, and think for yourself.
 
Meme Schmeme.
Can't you see that that's a nonsensical concept?

It could just as easily be argued that the ideas lying behind the scientific method are a whole bunch of memes.
Would that invalidate the scientific method?
No. It wouldn't.
Stop parroting Dawkins, and think for yourself.

Does anyone besides plumjam understand plumjam, find his posting valuable, or find him intelligent? When plumjam posts, I feel like the kiddies are on the computer again.

Meme may be a nonsensical concept to those of lower intelligence and those with theistic brain damage, but a great number of very intelligent people understand the concept readily. We also understand the difference between facts and faith as a means of knowledge. We don't, however, understand you--and it may be that no one actually does.
 
Does anyone besides plumjam understand plumjam, find his posting valuable, or find him intelligent? When plumjam posts, I feel like the kiddies are on the computer again.

Meme may be a nonsensical concept to those of lower intelligence and those with theistic brain damage, but a great number of very intelligent people understand the concept readily. We also understand the difference between facts and faith as a means of knowledge. We don't, however, understand you--and it may be that no one actually does.

Go on, give me a kiss. :blush:
 
Actually, I think I shall put you back on ignore. Woo invasions on my skeptics forum depress me.

Fine. I can see that honestly exploring opposing points of view is not what you've come here for. Rather you come here to participate in comforting Groupthink.
I understand.
I'd still like that kiss though ;)
 
Equally, why do you dismiss some moral beliefs and not others?
You do so for the same reasons that theists have been attempting to explain to you they use vis-a-vis Gods.
From inner experience.
You may like to call it conscience, intuition.. or such like... something feels right or wrong.

My morals are the result of cultural and genetic evolution over time as a group dependent species. And the cultural genetic evolution model explains immorality as well. A number of animal species have cooperating behaviors and aggressively behaving members with success due to different strategies.

I think we're getting close to shedding light on the problem here.

We have a moral sense, and both moral and immoral behaviour. All of this arises through evolution as Skep describes.

But what one person at a given time feels is morally right may NOT be what another person at another time feels is morally right. I would say this is dependant on how a person's background and experiences lead them to feel. The way Plumjam describes it basically seems to be saying the same thing.

If you believe there is such a thing as an absolute morality, then some of these standards may be closer than others, without any being completely right, possibly with some being completely wrong. People must rely on their own sense of what is right to get as close as they can. They believe they are approaching truth, based on feelings (how they feel about the results of their and other moral systems).

If you do not believe there is such a thing as absolute morality, you must simply choose a moral value (probably again based on your experiences), ideally admit you're choosing it, and evaluate everything based on that.

For example, I'm not convinced there is such a thing as absolute morality. When I say that comfortable, happy, self-determined life has value and every person should have as equal a shot at doing what they like as possible as long as they're not harming anyone/wasting too many resources... I have to admit I'm basing this on my feelings, as they have arisen from my experiences (and the way human minds work, if we want to go around stating everything explicitly).

I can, however, say that it does look like 'there is value in the majority of the people around you surviving resonably well' is a universal moral of society, unless there's some awful pressure on it.

So it seems like the idea of an absoulte morality (vs. relative morality) is similar as far as trying to argue and find evidence for, as the idea of a god/gods (vs. natural human feelings)

Hm. This seemed clearer when I started typing.
 
For the record, I don't.

Excellent. Because I find you an intelligent poster, and I understand your posts. Therefore, I shall conclude that plumjam is one of the incompetents referred to in my sig who doesn't realize that he is the incompetent one. I'm sure I won't miss anything by putting him on ignore.
 
I think we're getting close to shedding light on the problem here.

We have a moral sense, and both moral and immoral behaviour. All of this arises through evolution as Skep describes.

But what one person at a given time feels is morally right may NOT be what another person at another time feels is morally right. I would say this is dependant on how a person's background and experiences lead them to feel. The way Plumjam describes it basically seems to be saying the same thing.

If you believe there is such a thing as an absolute morality, then some of these standards may be closer than others, without any being completely right, possibly with some being completely wrong. People must rely on their own sense of what is right to get as close as they can. They believe they are approaching truth, based on feelings (how they feel about the results of their and other moral systems).

If you do not believe there is such a thing as absolute morality, you must simply choose a moral value (probably again based on your experiences), ideally admit you're choosing it, and evaluate everything based on that.

For example, I'm not convinced there is such a thing as absolute morality. When I say that comfortable, happy, self-determined life has value and every person should have as equal a shot at doing what they like as possible as long as they're not harming anyone/wasting too many resources... I have to admit I'm basing this on my feelings, as they have arisen from my experiences (and the way human minds work, if we want to go around stating everything explicitly).

I can, however, say that it does look like 'there is value in the majority of the people around you surviving resonably well' is a universal moral of society, unless there's some awful pressure on it.

So it seems like the idea of an absoulte morality (vs. relative morality) is similar as far as trying to argue and find evidence for, as the idea of a god/gods (vs. natural human feelings)

Hm. This seemed clearer when I started typing.
Maybe replying to this can help me explain to plumjam what the problem is with his answer that morals come from some "inner feeling".

The scientific process is not capable of determining a value without the criteria being first designated. If you say x&y are features of beauty and z&e are not, then you can use the scientific process or method to judge the beauty of something by measuring x,y,z&e. The scientific process itself is neutral about beauty, like it is neutral about moral values. But science is not useless for looking at morality and beauty.

But if we take plumjam's position, that one's idea of beauty and one's idea of right and wrong simply exists, that is a god of the gaps premise or one can equally describe those ideas of beauty and morality as having arisen by magic. They are just there. How did they get there? By magic? By gods instilling them in our brains as we sleep? Or, of course there's the recent popular explanation, God 'designed' us to have those moral values and ideas of what is beautiful.

But what does the evidence tell us about how a human being develops moral values? What does the evidence say about what influences our idea of beauty? Now you are back to using the scientific process, not to determine what is moral or what is beautiful, but rather, to explain how those values are determined. And low and behold, those values did not arise by magic. We don't need to fill in the knowledge gap by claiming those morals and ideas of beauty were intelligently 'designed'.

We can study behavior using the scientific process or method. We can study what processes are involved in elephant societies that might have parallels in human societies. We can look at brain damaged humans like sociopaths who lack empathy which we consider is one component of morality. We can see what advantages different behaviors have on survival and determine by genetic science which of those behaviors have a genetic component.

We then do use science, not to tell us what is absolutely moral or immoral. That is a question for philosophers and frankly, since there is no absolute morality, I find it rather a useless exercise in pondering. Using science, I can learn a lot more about morality than simply thinking philosophically about implications. I care about other people. I would feel uncomfortable stealing. I would find it extremely hard to kill or injure someone. But I don't think one needs magic or gods to explain why I have those values. Those "inner feelings" plum mentions are brain processes. We can see discomfort and the emotion of love on PET scans and MRIs and EEGs. We can measure electrical and neuro-chemical brain processes which accompany and explain why certain behaviors result in discomfort such as stealing.

No reason to throw up your hands in dismay and pronounce, "we can never understand", or "we cannot explain". Yes, as a matter of fact, we can.
 
Fine. I can see that honestly exploring opposing points of view is not what you've come here for. Rather you come here to participate in comforting Groupthink.
I understand.
I'd still like that kiss though ;)
You are brushing off what people are saying instead of actually trying to understand.

I can't say I know if you are intelligent or not because I don't know your age. If you are young, then just consider for a moment you are not getting some important concepts here. This has nothing to do with theism or atheism, it has to do with the lack of understanding you express for what some people are posting.

If you are older, then I'd have to say, you are closing your mind to new ideas and concepts thinking for some reason if you understand something new, you have to change your beliefs. That just isn't true. It's not that you do or don't agree or accept certain points of view. It's that you don't seem to understand those points of view. And that is different than understanding them and rejecting them.
 
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No. I've read them all. That's what formed my opinion of this thread.
I don't have time to respond to your entire post. Its long and I'm busy with holiday preparations. But I don't dislike you. In general, I don't dislike people for disagreeing with me. I tend to seek them out to converse with. People I dislike I put on ignore. You're not on my ignore list :)

I do think you are biased with regard to vaccinations; which is not unwarranted given your profession. Due to that bias, I think you are less skeptical of evidence in support of your bias than you are of evidence that contradicts your bias.
And now that we've established that I don't dislike you, does that make my opinion more interesting?
There is a difference between expertise and bias. You often miss that when you view things through your own filters. But, no, it still doesn't make your post valid. Seems DR has noticed I am not responsible for everything everyone in the thread posts. And my posts have been very consistent.

Sorry to clip so much of your response, but I really don't have much time and this thread is moving so quickly I'll never find this post again.


I disagree. The few theologians I know would too, though I likely have a biased sample to go on there. It's pretty well established that Christians and Muslims are both branches off the Jewish religion. Hinduism, as was pointed out earlier in this thread, have no problem with accepting Jesus and the Abrahamic God as representations of god. It really dosn't seem much of a stretch to me at all. Nor, apparently, is it a problem for any of the theists who are posting here. Apparently, it's only a 'stretch' for the god beliefs of the athiests who are posting here. Hmmm. That's interesting. I wonder why.

You ask for evidence why their god beliefs are true and other god beliefs are false, the response you have gotten over and over again is that they don't believe that all other god beliefs are false. Then you insist that they must consider some god beliefs false. And they do. My reading of the responses you've recieved is that god beliefs that conflict with empirical evidence can be considered false. Beliefs that do not conflict with empirical evidence (generally due to unfalsifiability) are not necessarily considered false. It seems to me a pretty clear demarkation of why they consider their beliefs as true and some of the other god beliefs false.
This reflects the same difficulty a number of people (mostly theists I assume) in the thread are having with the idea in the OP. And if you just go back and read my posts, skip the ones with different messages, you might get the actual question.

I am not asking anyone to justify their religion over another. I realize some people have asked that question separately from me. One thing being blurred is I am asking specifically about the god part of god beliefs and not about all the rest of religion. I can see why two interpretations of what I meant by "god beliefs" has surfaced, but I've clarified which interpretation I mean more than a few times. I mean the 'being' part of the god belief, (formless or not), not the religion that goes with the god being.

And what you are saying here is an example of the 'special' treatment you are giving some god beliefs. That's what I want to get at, but it is the process of excluding certain beliefs from skepticism that I am asking about. I am not asking for anyone to apply all those special treatments. That's the point. You are applying all these gyrations, rationalizations, reasons, altered definitions and so on to certain god beliefs. You seem to recognize that special treatment is not being applied to Zeus and Ra and Pe'le. We have gotten that far in the thread now. But there is still this disconnect. I am asking about the difference between Zeus and the Biblical God. I am not asking how god beliefs which appear to directly contradict other god beliefs can be explained.

This is a general statement now and not directed at any one person. Step back from your special rules that you only apply to certain god beliefs for a minute. Skip all the stuff about faith and inner feelings, step back from the special rules and look at them from the outside. Now (in the thread) we are getting descriptions of a "formless" god. The god that cannot be falsified has come up as the believable god. (I call it the god which cannot be tested for.) We have descriptions that if natural explanations are a better fit to explain certain phenomena those gods are likely fabrications of peoples' imaginations to explain natural phenomena.

What is the difference between those two sets of god beliefs? One follows the evidence. Understand the workings of a volcano? Well then there is no sense in leaving a god explanation in there cluttering up the science. Notice that science is resulting in a changing definition of god for some people, especially skeptics. You can test if prayers are answered. The god in the Bible has a physical form. Jesus certainly is believed by many to have had a physical form and ascended to a physical place. Pat Robertson says he believes god controls natural phenomena. The skeptic's god is squeezed into the spaces that are left as science narrows them by explaining natural phenomena.

Special rules for certain god beliefs are created and expanded over time. It isn't that those explanations have always been used in god descriptions. It's obvious to the theists in the thread that there is a great distinction between Zeus and the Biblical God. What isn't so obvious is the shifting description of God which is how that distinction grew over time.
 
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...
@skeptigirl:

I looked back at posts 1-18, and I was unfair to lump all of the collected sentiment expressed in those posts into your position. That embodiment of groupthink influenced how I responsed to you, and I ended up making you the focus, as you were the thread's originator, for more input than solely your own. That was not entirely fair to you, and the input that was only yours. I accept the responsibility for being unfair to you.

The collective sentiment expressed in the opening interchanges was that a few someones wanted a "theist" to come and play. To more clearly answer to you why I bothered to participate at all: someone wanted a game.

So I chimed in, and the game was on.

This seemed to encourage a few others to participate. The complaint about people not playing by the script you may have expected is rooted in the OP, as noted previously by others, and me.

To misquote Evita, from the musical:

The actress hasn't learned the lines you'd like to hear.


You may wish to bait the hook with more care, as you don't always catch the fish you think will bite on a given worm.

The choice is yours.

DR
Hooray, you are back to rational dislike of me rather than the irrational stuff that was hard to reply to.

You can see the thread direction any way you want. You think it floundered because of miscommunication. I have a different observation. It's been a struggle because there is a component of denial in those special rules applied to personal god beliefs. It stops the skeptic theist from going too far because cognitive dissonance is lurking nearby.

Of course in your case, I think it's mostly your cynicism here.
 
Beth, you don't believe that Zeus ever existed do you? But what makes your god different so that people of the future are less likely to presume that your god named "god" was any more real than the one of previous generations named Zeus or the one that inspired the Quoran or Xenu? What makes you believe that Scientology is a made up religion and that yours is based on some real truth and what makes you think you've stumbled upon that truth or the right invisible entity to believe in or ponder about. It all sounds so airy fairy to me. It sounds like theists are being purposeful illogical to believe whatever it is they believe in while rejecting all sorts of other equally "likely" beliefs (as far as the evidence goes.) Why is your belief or the god you hold your mind open for more likely to be true, Beth, than reincarnation or Allah (who does not recognize Jesus as a god) who authored the Quoran through his real prophet Mohummed or demon possession? Is there any reason to believe whatever it is you believe or to be on the fence about such beliefs while not remaining equally open to the above beliefs?

Like skepticgirl and mobyseven, I see the theists as avoiding the whole question to keep their pet delusions alive. If your argument could be used by people who have a belief you find false... then it's a bad argument for believing. How do theists or those on the fence convince themselves otherwise?
 

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