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Twoofers Only: The Mark Roberts Factual Error Thread

unfortunately what is "more likely" or "more probable" does not concern them. If there is even a remote chance they are right on any element of the 9/11 CTs, then they believe it is the CT that is true...paranoia!!

TAM:)

Well, he still thought it was an inside job, but I take my little victories where I can find them.
:)
 
Without even looking at the derivation, I'm pretty sure I can guess an assumption that went into it, that make it irrevlevant. No, it's not simply a question of "impact" vs. "static".
Well, feel free to tell us what assumption you think went into it. I can list those those that are in the book.

I look forward to your revelation on what assumption you believe is made. By the way, why did you not just type it in here instead of holding back like it is some great secret?

You didn't answer the question clearly. Do you really think that collapse would occur if a drop from 1 mm occurred? Yes or no?
Assuming the factor of safety is less than 2, then yes, I believe the collapse would occur. But keep in mind, collapse initiation is different than collapse continuation. The equation I am using relates to collapse continuation.

As for me, I have an electric scale, and "not acquiring datapoints quickly enough" seems wide of the mark, no?

You must have a very good electronic scale. We have specialized equipment where I work in order to capture data points quickly. Most home scales won't have the resolution that a professional scale has. This is regardless whether it is electric or not.
 
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Metamars:

Think of it this way. Let's say you can hold a 200 lb dumbbell above your head. It is difficult but you find that you can do it.

Now enlist two friends to hold that dumbbell some small distance above your hands and have them drop it. I think you would find that it is much more difficult and you would probably drop it.

I am not suggesting you try this experiment as it would be dangerous, but perhaps you could try with a smaller weight like 50 lbs.
 
Swing, as usual, good work. You surely provide some interesting examples. I'm curious why debunking arguments, in this instance, rely on the idea that "pull it" is not an industry term. Even though you show many examples where it is used that way, Silverstein is not an industry expert. At best, his use of the phrase has to be taken as informal, from the perspective of an outsider. But with his long career in real estate, I'm sure he's been part of discussions about demolitions.

All I'm trying to point out here is that the so called debunk of "pull it" is deeply flawed since we can't apply the same rationale for Silverstein's use of the phrase, as we would someone within the demolition community.

This analysis actually harms, rather than helps, your case. Let's look at the actual claim of the truth movement, broken down into premises and conclusions. I'm not Arkan Wolfshade, but I'll do my best.

P1: Silverstein said that he decided to "pull it".
P2: The word "it" in "pull it" denoted WTC7.
P3: "Pull it" is demolition industry slang for demolishing a building.
P4: Silverstein was conversant with this slang.

Conclusion: Silverstein knowingly admitted to giving the order to demolish WTC7.

What we have here is a chain of reasoning, very different to the standard conspiracy theorist scattergun proof; if any link of this chain is broken, then the conclusion becomes invalid. So how do these four premises look?

P1: It's now well-known that Silverstein said "they made the decision to pull". The first premise is therefore invalid.

P2: Silverstein has denied this and stated that "it" meant the contingent of firefighters. Denials along the line of "Well he would say that, wouldn't he?" fail to explain why Silverstein allowed the original comment to go out in a pre-recorded interview. The second premise is therefore unproven and challenged by Silverstein himself.

P3: The part of the chain under discussion. Despite the fact that the word "pull" is used in the demolition industry, as are (presumably) the vast majority of the more common words in the English language, no evidence has been presented to show that "pull" means "demolish with explosives", and considerable evidence has been presented that it does not. Swing's efforts notwithstanding, on the balance of evidence the third premise is invalid.

P4: This is the premise you are now calling into question, and you're not the first. You don't have any way to assess Silverstein's experience with the demolition industry, and I don't see anyone presenting proof that it's normal for a property developer to understand the technical details of demolition; I'd have thought he would hire people for that, but that's no more than my opinion. There's no evidence that Silverstein is or ever has been conversant with demolition industry jargon, and if he isn't then this premise becomes invalid. At best it is unproven.

So we have a chain of four premises, every one of which has been shown to be either invalid or at best unestablished. To say that the conclusion does not follow is an understatement.

Dave
 
Well, that's the state of the "truth" movement. This forum would be chock-full of their threads presenting evidence of the inside job – if they had any.

Instead of trying to make their earth-shattering, career-making, Pulitzer Prize-winning case against the "real" terrorists, they choose to spend their time searching for misstatements by a tour guide. That'll save the world. Well, at least it'll help me improve my debating skills.

3" Rebar on 4' centers.
 
rodriguez refuses to come back here and prove how redibis is "right" about mark, but instead i only see redibis glorifying a " mr" rodriguez....
why is that "redibis"?


Rodriguez is a self-promoting phony who refuses to confront his critics.
RedIbis is a conspiracy liar who is devoid of critical thinking skills. But, I repeat myself.
 
pull down

1. To demolish; destroy: pull down an old office building.

Source: dictionary.com

n. Pull


10. To demolish; destroy: pull down an old office building.

As I said, it can be accomplished with explosives as the numerous examples show or with cables.

N'uff said.

Ready for the next error?

We know what you mean when you say 'pull it" hope you enjoy "it"
 
Metamars:

Think of it this way. Let's say you can hold a 200 lb dumbbell above your head. It is difficult but you find that you can do it.

Now enlist two friends to hold that dumbbell some small distance above your hands and have them drop it. I think you would find that it is much more difficult and you would probably drop it.

I am not suggesting you try this experiment as it would be dangerous, but perhaps you could try with a smaller weight like 50 lbs.

Let's get real and suggest you have a whole bunch of friends holding the dumbbell.

Something occurs, and for some reason they are effected in a way that makes it impossible for them to maintain holding it up.

One by one they let go while struggling to maintain support.

The dumbbell gradually dips and topples to the ground completely missing your head.

Isn't reality wonderful?

MM
 
Let's get real and suggest you have a whole bunch of friends holding the dumbbell.

Something occurs, and for some reason they are effected in a way that makes it impossible for them to maintain holding it up.

One by one they let go while struggling to maintain support.

The dumbbell gradually dips and topples to the ground completely missing your head.

Isn't reality wonderful?

MM

So the rest of the building should have moved. Gotcha.
 
Just checking my error total for the day.

...

Okay, thanks.
 
Let's get real and suggest you have a whole bunch of friends holding the dumbbell.

Something occurs, and for some reason they are effected in a way that makes it impossible for them to maintain holding it up.

One by one they let go while struggling to maintain support.

The dumbbell gradually dips and topples to the ground completely missing your head.

Isn't reality wonderful?

MM

That may be the most ridiculous analogy I've ever seen. It's not applicable in any way and has no connection to reality whatsoever.
 
This analysis actually harms, rather than helps, your case. Let's look at the actual claim of the truth movement, broken down into premises and conclusions. I'm not Arkan Wolfshade, but I'll do my best.

P1: Silverstein said that he decided to "pull it".
P2: The word "it" in "pull it" denoted WTC7.
P3: "Pull it" is demolition industry slang for demolishing a building.
P4: Silverstein was conversant with this slang.

Conclusion: Silverstein knowingly admitted to giving the order to demolish WTC7.

What we have here is a chain of reasoning, very different to the standard conspiracy theorist scattergun proof; if any link of this chain is broken, then the conclusion becomes invalid. So how do these four premises look?

P1: It's now well-known that Silverstein said "they made the decision to pull". The first premise is therefore invalid.

P2: Silverstein has denied this and stated that "it" meant the contingent of firefighters. Denials along the line of "Well he would say that, wouldn't he?" fail to explain why Silverstein allowed the original comment to go out in a pre-recorded interview. The second premise is therefore unproven and challenged by Silverstein himself.

P3: The part of the chain under discussion. Despite the fact that the word "pull" is used in the demolition industry, as are (presumably) the vast majority of the more common words in the English language, no evidence has been presented to show that "pull" means "demolish with explosives", and considerable evidence has been presented that it does not. Swing's efforts notwithstanding, on the balance of evidence the third premise is invalid.

P4: This is the premise you are now calling into question, and you're not the first. You don't have any way to assess Silverstein's experience with the demolition industry, and I don't see anyone presenting proof that it's normal for a property developer to understand the technical details of demolition; I'd have thought he would hire people for that, but that's no more than my opinion. There's no evidence that Silverstein is or ever has been conversant with demolition industry jargon, and if he isn't then this premise becomes invalid. At best it is unproven.

So we have a chain of four premises, every one of which has been shown to be either invalid or at best unestablished. To say that the conclusion does not follow is an understatement.

Dave

Has anyone pointed out that the FDNY is not a demolition company? They put out fires AFAIK, maybe rescue the occasional cat from up a light pole and cook each other big meals on slow nights, but I don't think I ever heard of them setting charges and prepping skyscrapers for demolition. I spose I could be wrong...
 
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Well, feel free to tell us what assumption you think went into it. I can list those those that are in the book.

Sure. The impacting mass was rigid, and the other end was constrained by a rigid surface.

In Wave Motion in Elastic Solids by Karl F. Graff, p. 103, the ratio of initial impact force is given (eq. 2.4.25) for elastic-on-elastic vs. rigid-on-elastic collisions. The elastic body being impacted is a thin rod. This is:

1 / (1 + Z1/Z2).


Where Z1 is the impedance of the elastic impacting object, and Z2 is the impedance of the impacted elastic object.

Z is given by rho*A*c0, where
rho is density
A is area
c0 is the speed of sound

In the special case of the collision of rods of exactly the same dimensions and density, the impedances are equal, and thus the peak force will be 1/2 times that of the analogous rigid-on-elastic impact.

I look forward to your revelation on what assumption you believe is made. By the way, why did you not just type it in here instead of holding back like it is some great secret?
These qualitative impact of these "revelations" was made intuitively by me over 2 years ago. The above equations are from Chapter 2 of an 8 chapter book on elasticity theory. They are not "revelations", at all.

A more interesting question is, why did Dr. Bazant, who has co-authored numerous books (one of which I've glanced at, and seems to be well written) involving both elastic and plastic theory, cherry-pick his assumptions regarding rigidity the way he did, so as to "derive" a fragility to the building that was greater than he suggested? Recall that in a subsequent paper (Bazant and Verdure), he made reference to his not-so-youthful indiscretion of a paper with Zhou. He had plenty of time to reflect on his paper with Zhou, and to publish a correction.

The Newton's Bit paper - even the new and improved one - also has un-explicated assumptions of rigidity, which invalidate his analysis. (I'll have more to say on those, later, but on his threads.) Actually, I think all of the analyses along the lines of Bazant-Zhou's original paper that ignore established theory are wrong - BZ, Ross, and Newton's Bit.

This is actually a much deeper problem than you might think. If you're curious what strain vs. time would look like in a real impact, see

http://metamars.i8.com/index.html

Notice that (apparently), the compressive stress wave is "one way". I.e., the reflected wave contributions are very small. (The data is represented two separate runs abreast, so don't misinterpret.) That tells me (I'm not 100% sure) that transmittance at the base is very high, so reflected compressive waves won't add to the net stress on the rod very much. Remember how these sorts of considerations were ignored by Manuel Garcia?


You might also ask yourself the question of why other JREF'ers, who have a technical background, did not bother to disabuse you of your mistaken notions of whether or not and how you mis-applied a mathematically correct solution to a physical problem.

Assuming the factor of safety is less than 2, then yes, I believe the collapse would occur. But keep in mind, collapse initiation is different than collapse continuation. The equation I am using relates to collapse continuation.
Well, you're wrong. My question to you regarding a drop of all of 1 mm should have been a clue that something was amiss in your reasoning. To amuse yourself, why don't you call the professors whose results you quoted, and ask them the 1 mm question?

You must have a very good electronic scale. We have specialized equipment where I work in order to capture data points quickly. Most home scales won't have the resolution that a professional scale has. This is regardless whether it is electric or not.
It's ok. I just checked, and it records about 15 pounds over my true weight when I first step on it. I don't really know the details of how it works, but I don't believe that constraints in "acquiring data points" have anything to do with not showing more than +15 pounds.
 
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Has anyone pointed out that the FDNY is not a demolition company?


I have, maybe a thousand or so times.


They put out fires AFAIK, maybe rescue the occasional cat from up a light pole and cook each other big meals on slow nights, but I don't think I ever heard of them setting charges and prepping skyscrapers for demolition. I spose I could be wrong...


When I made this exact point on the Winter Patriot blog, some imbecile called me names and babbled about axes and poles. I guess you could tear down a skyscraper with a big enough pole--Archimedes and his lever and all that.
 
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That may be the most ridiculous analogy I've ever seen. It's not applicable in any way and has no connection to reality whatsoever.


It is a common problem among "truthers", that whole "disconnected from reality" thing.
 

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