Witnesses Corroborating Rodriguez's Claims?

[T.A.M.]

hey totovader and everbody, thewholesoul here

so maybe we could start off where we finished? morellini's testimony gives an account of two events (1) when he was walking he was thrown to the ground from the impact of the first event which he believed was in the loading dock. (2) when he was later running he experienced the second event which he assumed could have been the freight car when it collapsed.

now your initial explanation was that (1) was the plane impact + (2) was the evelvator.

you retracted this position when i pointed out the peculiarity of a plane impact 90+ floors above him causing him to be thrown to the ground. further more we know that people closer to the impact did not fall to the ground from the plane impact e.g. rodriguez and anthony which further decreased the plausibility of event (1) being the impact of a plane.

your next explanation was that (1) was the elevator and (2) was the "sound of the plane" impact.

but this explanation is clearly inconsistent with morellinis testimony since he seems to suggest that the second event (2), not the first, was the elevator crashing to the ground floor. besides would an elevator crashing to the basement floor cause a person to be thrown to the ground? perhaps? i would be sceptical.

but if event (1) was the elevator and event (2) was the "sound" of the plane impact travelling down the building. would the "sound" of the plane impact follow the elevator impact? the speed of sound is 340m/s, the plane impacted on the 93th floor which is roughly 355m above ground. so it would not take ANY longer than two seconds to reach the basement. the elevator fell because a fireball of jet fuel jetting down the elevator. so the fireball and the "sound of the plane impact" started the same time. but if the elevator fell at the speed of sound it and its occupants would surely have been crushed on impact. because the operator of the elevator survived we must reject this explanation. so the second event (2) could not have been the "sound" of the plane imapct.

so as a defender of the official story what is your explanation in relation to the testimony of morellini?

you have two posts here on this forum. Where is your original argument, as referenced to in the above post?

This argument/debate you are trying to continue here...did it initiate on another forum???

TAM

 

[thewholesoul]

"I suggest you read my paper "William Rodriguez, Escape Artist." It presents dozens of witness accounts, all of which are consistent with jet fuel igniting, and none of which are consistent with the use of high explosives."

I read your paper, i may have missed it but i could not find the entire transcript of the Felipe David interview 2002 on Colombian television. I did find it at prisonplanet.

He states in the interview “That day I was in the basement in sub-level 1 sometime after 8:30am. Everything happened so fast, everything moved so fast. The building started shaking AFTER I heard the explosion BELOW, dust was flying everywhere and all of a sudden it got real hot...I threw myself onto the floor, covered my face because I felt like I was burned”

let me be clear, i do not doubt that there was a fireball down the elevator as there is just too much testimony in support of this event. I agree with Arturo Griffith, for instance, when he said "The whole car shook and juddered as he heard an ominous noise from above.”

However i find Davids testimony at odds with your assertion that “The descriptions of explosions in the basement levels are entirely consistent with jet fuel traveling down the elevator shafts and entirely inconsistent with the effects of high explosives”.

Presumably David was burnt from the descending fireball but what puzzles me is how he heard the explosion below him BEFORE he got burnt? For this reason his description of explosions in the basement levels are entirely in-consistent with the jet fuel traveling down the elevator shaft. Because if indeed the explosion was caused by the jet fuel then he would have been burned before he heard the explosion since he was standing right beside the elevator.

 

[Totovader]

you have two posts here on this forum. Where is your original argument, as referenced to in the above post?

This argument/debate you are trying to continue here...did it initiate on another forum???

TAM

thewholesoul is referencing the debate that took place on his YouTube video, found here.

Good luck trying to decipher who's responding to what- though. It became quite lengthy and got to the point where I couldn't even tell what was what- which is why I suggested he come here and try to make his point.

Unfortunately, he has me at a disadvantage- at first we were talking about Rodriguez, and then Saltalamacchia, and then Morelli, and then someone else. I can't find some of the posts I remember making in regards to Rodriguez and Saltalamacchia- but I blame that on YouTube.

Instead- I'll try to address what he said here, instead of continuing whatever debate was going on.

 

[Gravy]

Welcome, thewholesoul.

The obvious explanation is that these people in the basement didn't hear the plane impact, just as some people who were quite close to the impacts didn't. There's a chapter in my paper about that. I don't think you read very far in it.

Anthony Saltalamacchia, who was with Rodriguez:
"Being inside, we didn't know that there was anything wrong from the upper levels." Source

 

[Pardalis]

thewholesoul is referencing the debate that took place on his YouTube video, found here.

Good luck trying to decipher who's responding to what- though. It became quite lengthy and got to the point where I couldn't even tell what was what- which is why I suggested he come here and try to make his point.

I'm surprised anybody reads these things.

 

[Totovader]

hey totovader and everbody, thewholesoul here

so maybe we could start off where we finished? morellini's testimony gives an account of two events (1) when he was walking he was thrown to the ground from the impact of the first event which he believed was in the loading dock. (2) when he was later running he experienced the second event which he assumed could have been the freight car when it collapsed.

I was sure we moved past this. I quoted Morelli so that you could be sure:

From Gravy's page, here

Phillip Morelli: "As I'm walking by the main freight car of the building, in the corridor, that's when I got blown. I mean, the impact of the explosion, of whatever happened, it threw me to the floor, and that's when everything started happening. It knocked me right to the floor. Of course you didn't know what it was, you're assuming something just fell over in the loading dock, something very heavy, something very big. You don't know what happened, and all of a sudden you just felt the floor moving, and you get up, and the walls – and then, you know now I'm hearing that the main freight car, you know the elevators, fell down, so I was right near the main freight car, so I assume what that was. [Describing the same event] Then, you know, you heard that coming towards you, I was racing, I was going towards the bathrooms, you know, all of a sudden, and a big impact happened again, and all the ceiling tiles were falling down, the light fixtures falling, swinging out of the ceiling.

now your initial explanation was that (1) was the plane impact + (2) was the evelvator.

Are you sure that we were talking about Morelli? If we were, then I was obviously in error. Morelli is making the description himself. I remember making that point when I quoted him.

you retracted this position when i pointed out the peculiarity of a plane impact 90+ floors above him causing him to be thrown to the ground. further more we know that people closer to the impact did not fall to the ground from the plane impact e.g. rodriguez and anthony which further decreased the plausibility of event (1) being the impact of a plane.

I am positive I never retracted my statement. Regardless, what makes you think this is peculiar? The impact of the plane is not necessarily going to have the same effect throughout the building. I'm not sure exactly where Morelli was, but if he was closer to any sort of support structure- then he would feel the impact more than someone who was not. Furthermore- as Gravy points out in his resources- there were people several floors below the impact that felt nothing- heard nothing.

your next explanation was that (1) was the elevator and (2) was the "sound of the plane" impact.

The sound of the plane would not have caused Morelli to be knocked to the ground- I never said that. I was talking about Rodriguez and the differences between hearing the impact. I specifically see the comments regarding your evasion of the Rodriguez story- especially in reference to him "knowing" the plane had not impacted yet.

but this explanation is clearly inconsistent with morellinis testimony since he seems to suggest that the second event (2), not the first, was the elevator crashing to the ground floor. besides would an elevator crashing to the basement floor cause a person to be thrown to the ground? perhaps? i would be sceptical.

I would defer to Morelli's testimony, then. Not that it describes the event itself- but it describes his memory of the event. I still fail to see what the problem is, however.

but if event (1) was the elevator and event (2) was the "sound" of the plane impact travelling down the building. would the "sound" of the plane impact follow the elevator impact? the speed of sound is 340m/s, the plane impacted on the 93th floor which is roughly 355m above ground. so it would not take ANY longer than two seconds to reach the basement. the elevator fell because a fireball of jet fuel jetting down the elevator. so the fireball and the "sound of the plane impact" started the same time. but if the elevator fell at the speed of sound it and its occupants would surely have been crushed on impact. because the operator of the elevator survived we must reject this explanation. so the second event (2) could not have been the "sound" of the plane imapct.

You're assuming the sound of the impact was traveling through a vacuum of air.

so as a defender of the official story what is your explanation in relation to the testimony of morellini?

Hold on- let me get my Talisman of Truth! Seriously? "Defender of the official story"?

My explanation is... you need to expand upon this idea that Morelli's recollection of the events is inconsistent with the "official story".

I recall pointing out that it makes no difference- Morelli's account could not be describing explosives. What was your rebuttal to that?

 

[thewholesoul]

point taken, once one considers that people closer to the impact did not hear the impact then rodriguez's claim must be dropped unless he has super sonic hearing.

so i hope totovader hears this, he pressed me on this one before.

if i am convinced by anothers argument i will change my position. that is a promise.

 

[Totovader]

point taken, once one considers that people closer to the impact did not hear the impact then rodriguez's claim must be dropped unless he has super sonic hearing.

so i hope totovader hears this, he pressed me on this one before.

if i am convinced by anothers argument i will change my position. that is a promise.

Who asked that Rodriguez's claim be "dropped"?

 

[Zlaya]

Welcome, thewholesoul.

The obvious explanation is that these people in the basement didn't hear the plane impact, just as some people who were quite close to the impacts didn't. There's a chapter in my paper about that. I don't think you read very far in it.

Anthony Saltalamacchia, who was with Rodriguez:
"Being inside, we didn't know that there was anything wrong from the upper levels." Source

Or, you're wrong and bomb went off down there right before the impact?

 

[Totovader]

Or, you're wrong and bomb went off down there right before the impact?

Please- do what no conspiracist before you has been able to accomplish:

Explain why a "bomb" in the lower levels would have been necessary, possible, and relevant. The building did not collapse from the bottom up, and these supposed bombs certainly did not cause the building to collapse.

What sense does it make- or does it even bother you that it makes no sense?

 

[beachnut]

Or, you're wrong and bomb went off down there right before the impact?

No, you are wrong on this; A bomb going off before the planes would have made the news; but since your sources heard the bomb after the planes hit, your ideas are wrong for 6 years; Wrong before you even made up the stupid idea. Sorry, but being wrong on this simple stuff pretty much ruins your credibility; like crying wolf!. 9/11 truth is wrong and Rodriquez is selling his story. Why are you falling for the lies of 9/11 truth? How did the education system fail you?

 

[Gravy]

Or, you're wrong and bomb went off down there right before the impact?

Only Rodriguez, who has a great deal of trouble with honesty, makes that claim, and AFAIK he only started making that claim in 2005.

Of course, he's also lied that he doesn't claim it was a bomb or explosives. He can't even tell the truth about his fantasies. I quoted him in an email to him a couple of days ago:

"I'm not going to say that it was a bomb, because I am not an explosives expert."

And my reply:

Then you shouldn't claim that it wasn't what all of the evidence and witness testimony says it was: a jet fuel blast. Is there anything unclear about this concept?

 

[thewholesoul]

No matter how many times one reads morellini’s testimony one must conclude that two events occured. The first when he was walking and the second when he was running. I am simply looking for the most plausible explanation.

Now when i said your initial explanation for event (1) and (2) was the plane impact and the elvator crashing down you said “Are you sure that we were talking about Morelli?” yes i am sure.

“I am positive I never retracted my statement.” You said you mispoke. Or if you did make that statement it was an error. But lets not debate semantics.

“Regardless, what makes you think this is peculiar? The impact of the plane is not necessarily going to have the same effect throughout the building. I'm not sure exactly where Morelli was, but if he was closer to any sort of support structure- then he would feel the impact more than someone who was not. Furthermore- as Gravy points out in his resources- there were people several floors below the impact that felt nothing- heard nothing.”

After reading all the postings in this thread i have heard two explanations why he fell over.

No.1 R.Mackey says “And Morelli was first pushed over by compressed air pushed out of elevator shaft 6/7 or 50 (or both) due to falling elevator cars”
No.2 totovader argues that because he was close to the support structure “The impact of the plane” caused him to fall.

Of the two Mackey’s explanation seems more plausible. Because morellini states “when i got blown” which could be interpreted as compressed air rather than some form of after shock from the plane impact or something else.

The problem with totovaders explanation is that morellini claims to be beside the freight elevator, so was Felipe David, however David did not fall from the impact of the plane. So thats one reason i find it peculiar. I tend to beleive that whatever happened in the loading dock caused him to fall not what happened 90 floors above him.

The problem i have with mackey’s explanation is: could a falling elevator produce enough compressed air to push him to the floor? And account for something to fall (morellini) “over in the loading dock, something very heavy”. I am not sure but i’m assuming there were closed doors infront of the elevator shaft 6/7 and 50. these would have to be blown out if morellini was himself to be blown. If this had happened i would assume he would have mentioned it as the reason he fell to the ground given that he was walking beside the freight elevator.

“The sound of the plane would not have caused Morelli to be knocked to the ground- I never said that.”

Snap - i never said that either. “the sound of the plane” was presented as an explanation to the second event (2) that morellini experienced, an event that did not cause him to fall.

“I was talking about Rodriguez and the differences between hearing the impact”.

Really? Would a person well versed in gravy’s research and arguing that rodriguez could not have heard or known the plane impacting say this “The SECOND explosion would be the SOUND of the plane impact.” (emphasis ALL his). How could you be explaining the differences between hearing the impact of a plane when you were arguing that rodriguez didnt hear anything? When you posted this i wrote in response

“The SECOND explosion would be the SOUND of the plane impact." i thought YOU SAID that the second sound morellini described was quote "the collapsing elevators"??? admit it you CHANGED your story” . clearly we were talking about the first and second sounds that Morellini heard because you were arguing that rodriguez could not have heard a first and second sound, only the noise in the basement that was caused by the elevator or fireball.

Anyways lets move on – you obviously dont stand by your statement that the second event (2) morellini heard was the sound of the plane impact.

“You're assuming the sound of the impact was traveling through a vacuum of air”

Whether the sound was travelling through air, steel or concrete was irrelevant to the point i was making. The point i was making was that the speed of sound from the plane impacting the building would reach the basement sooner than the crashing elevator reached its final destination. But given that people below didnt even hear the plane impact i have no need to present this argumnet – it was merely a rebutal to totvaders suggestion that the second sound morellini heard was the sound of the plane impact.

“Hold on- let me get my Talisman of Truth!” funny.

“My explanation is... you need to expand upon this idea that Morelli's recollection of the events is inconsistent with the "official story".

Well what is that “official story” how many times do i have to ask as to what he heard in the laoding dock and made him to fall (event 1) and what did he hear when he was running by the bathroom (event 2)?

Was it – the plane impact? Was it the falling elevator? Was it compressed air? Was it a cosmic fart? I dont claim to have the answers but i do have questions and it would be nice if you could spell out exactly your explanation of these two events that he experienced and I will state my objections, if any.

“I recall pointing out that it makes no difference- Morelli's account could not be describing explosives. What was your rebuttal to that?”

What morellini described was the “impact of the explosion” “something very big” “something very heavy”. He was not on the floor where this event occured thus “Of course you didn't know what it was”. So he is describing something he could not be not describing something – was that something explosives? Or something else? I am awaiting to hear your something else...

 

[Gravy]

thewholesoul, why don't you contact Mr. Morelli to get a more detailed account? Will you? While you're at it, you can ask him if he thinks there were bombs placed in the basement that detonated before flight 11 hit.

And how about Arturo Griffith? William Rodriguez is afraid to interview him, although back in August, 2006 he said he would. How about you?

 

[thewholesoul]

hey beachnut i can see this is the start of a fruitfull dialogue, perhaps even a friendship?

so as for your ad hominem attack let us address my "stupid question".

what is the official explanation for morellini's account? you agree he experienced two main events the first caused him to fall to ground and he thought it came from the loading dock. the second occured when he was running. so you tell me what your version of the offical story is that explains these two events because i have heard several already. and i will try raise objections. if i cannot only then do you win the money.

 

[Totovader]

The problem with totovaders explanation is that morellini claims to be beside the freight elevator, so was Felipe David, however David did not fall from the impact of the plane. So thats one reason i find it peculiar. I tend to beleive that whatever happened in the loading dock caused him to fall not what happened 90 floors above him.

Read Morelli's testimony again- he was assuming something fell in the loading dock, because at the time it was the only thing that made sense to him. Without the knowledge of a plane impact, the only other thing that could cause that much damage would be "something falling in the loading dock". That's not what actually happened, it was just Morelli making an educated guess at the time.

The problem i have with mackey’s explanation is: could a falling elevator produce enough compressed air to push him to the floor? And account for something to fall (morellini) “over in the loading dock, something very heavy”. I am not sure but i’m assuming there were closed doors infront of the elevator shaft 6/7 and 50. these would have to be blown out if morellini was himself to be blown. If this had happened i would assume he would have mentioned it as the reason he fell to the ground given that he was walking beside the freight elevator.

Your problem/question is resolved when you read the quote again.

Really? Would a person well versed in gravy’s research and arguing that rodriguez could not have heard or known the plane impacting say this “The SECOND explosion would be the SOUND of the plane impact.” (emphasis ALL his). How could you be explaining the differences between hearing the impact of a plane when you were arguing that rodriguez didnt hear anything? When you posted this i wrote in response

Where did I argue that Rodriguez didn't hear anything?

i thought YOU SAID that the second sound morellini described was quote "the collapsing elevators"??? admit it you CHANGED your story” . clearly we were talking about the first and second sounds that Morellini heard because you were arguing that rodriguez could not have heard a first and second sound, only the noise in the basement that was caused by the elevator or fireball.

Where did I argue that Rodriguez could not have heard a first and second sound? I was arguing that Rodriguez could not know that the plane had not yet hit.

Well what is that “official story” how many times do i have to ask as to what he heard in the laoding dock and made him to fall (event 1) and what did he hear when he was running by the bathroom (event 2)?

Again, you need to read the quote again- there was no event in the loading dock.

Was it – the plane impact? Was it the falling elevator? Was it compressed air? Was it a cosmic fart? I dont claim to have the answers but i do have questions and it would be nice if you could spell out exactly your explanation of these two events that he experienced and I will state my objections, if any.

You have questions which are being used as a method of avoiding the facts. What I pointed out earlier to you- and what you continue to dodge- is that the sequence is largely irrelevant. Morelli is not describing explosives, and explosives would not make sense anyway.

“I recall pointing out that it makes no difference- Morelli's account could not be describing explosives. What was your rebuttal to that?”

What morellini described was the “impact of the explosion” “something very big” “something very heavy”. He was not on the floor where this event occured thus “Of course you didn't know what it was”. So he is describing something he could not be not describing something – was that something explosives? Or something else? I am awaiting to hear your something else...

That's not an answer to my question. I recall that you avoided it several times in our previous discussion. Are you going to continue to ignore it?

 

[Gravy]

thewholesoul, you're aware that several elevators fell in their shafts, right?

 

[thewholesoul]

well you have his phone number so why dont you do it and save me the price of an international call.

 

[Totovader]

Once again- here's Morelli's testimony, with the relevant part bolded:

Phillip Morelli: "As I'm walking by the main freight car of the building, in the corridor, that's when I got blown. I mean, the impact of the explosion, of whatever happened, it threw me to the floor, and that's when everything started happening. It knocked me right to the floor. Of course you didn't know what it was, you're assuming something just fell over in the loading dock, something very heavy, something very big. You don't know what happened, and all of a sudden you just felt the floor moving, and you get up, and the walls – and then, you know now I'm hearing that the main freight car, you know the elevators, fell down, so I was right near the main freight car, so I assume what that was. [Describing the same event] Then, you know, you heard that coming towards you, I was racing, I was going towards the bathrooms, you know, all of a sudden, and a big impact happened again, and all the ceiling tiles were falling down, the light fixtures falling, swinging out of the ceiling.

Morelli is not describing an event in the loading dock- he's eluding to an assumption he made at the time due to the lack of information available from his position.

 

[LashL]

well you have his phone number so why dont you do it and save me the price of an international call.

If I undertake to call him and ask him about this to "save [you] the price of an international phone call", will you accept my report of the ensuing conversation as accurate?

If not, it would be far better for you to spend the five dollars and make the call yourself.