Dawkins: I'm a cultural Christian

[linusrichard]

The comment refers to Newdown or whatever his name is in the US. You do know there are atheists in the US, right?

1. His name is Newdow.
2. I don't think he's trying to get "In God We Trust" back off U.S. money. That's certainly not what he's known for. He's known for trying to get "under god" back out of the Pledge of Allegiance.
3. I do know there are atheists in the US, but I also know that Dawkins, subject of this thread, is not one.

But, from Wikipedia

All current [UK] coins include the Latin inscription ELIZABETH II DEI GRATIA REGINA FIDEI DEFENSOR in abbreviated form, which means "Elizabeth II, by the grace of God, Queen and Defender of the Faith", with Elizabeth II facing to the right.

So yeah, it is related. Moving on.

Yes - somewhat related. UK has God-talk on money. Is Dawkins working to get rid of that?

You're really telling me that putting a message on coins (that is based on our heritage) inflicts harm on people? Better give away all your money then!

Har har har no. I didn't say "inflicts harm" or anything close to it. Just that it's inappropriate for our secular government to put a religious message on its money. That's the second time you've done that -- is it really that hard to simply disagree with someone without having to misrepresent their position?

Why isn't Newdown or whatever his name is winning his cases? Must be some conspiracy.

Newdow lost at the Supreme Court because a majority found that he did not have standing to bring the case. The substantive issue he brought before the Court was not decided. What this has to do with "In God We Trust" on money, or Dawkins, or cultural Christianity, I'm not sure.

Well this argument doesn't make much sense, in fact, it seems to say 'hey, don't make any progress at all'. There's been no culture, from what I can tell, with atheism as its center, and probably no time in history of the world where atheists have been a majority. How can they be "restoring history" when those facts are staring them in the face?

Putting "In God We Trust" on money isn't progress. The point is not that the U.S. ever had atheism as its center, or that it ever had an atheist majority. The point is that it was set up to have a secular (not (necessarily) atheist) government - the people can have as much or as little God as they like, but the government is going to stay out of all that. We got along fine with godless money and godless Pledge of Allegiance until the 50s. The history I'm talking about restoring is not an imaginary history when most Americans were atheists, and we had an atheism-centered culture. It's a real-life history, when the money had the appropriate amount of God-talk on it.

I'm not sure you really get his argument. I mean, he's an atheist saying he is some type of Christian, but only to mean 'I like some of the things you Christians like'. It is talking out of both sides of his mouth, like to not lose a possible fan base or something.

I don't agree. I don't think I said it to you, but I said it further up in the thread. It doesn't make sense to think of a "Cultural Christian" as a type of Christian. Peanut butter isn't butter. The Golfer's Bible isn't a Bible. A void contract isn't a contract. Indian summer isn't summer. A cultural Christian is not necessarily a Christian (although one person can be both). (As a side note, it's also weird to accuse Dawkins, who as far as I can tell is one of the most abrasive, insensitive, and divisive characters around, of pandering.)

From Wiki, the term means

Cultural Christian is a broad term describing individuals who identify themselves as Christian, but who generally would not be described by other, more religious Christians, as active in their faith.

That's fine. His definition is different from wikisomebody's definition. I like his definition better; you like wikisomebody's definition better. If you can show me an actual dictionary definition that conflicts with Dawkins', then I'll concede that he should maybe pick a better term. But the whole argument still boils down to semantics - you're not accusing him of not being what he defines "cultural Christian" to be, I don't think. If he said, I'm an Eacita, and an Eacita is this, I'm guessing you wouldn't argue. You're miffed, as far as I can tell, because he used a word that you think belongs to you.

But hey, maybe he is: http://richarddawkins.net/images/atheistsForJesus.jpg

Atheists for Jesus are not Christians, in the sense that you or I would use the word.

Biologists should stick to biology. Outside of their sphere they get a lil' lost.

He's discussing his own personal beliefs, culture, and values. That's certainly within his sphere, even if he is a biologist. It's within anyone's sphere to talk about that kind of personal stuff.


You didn't answer my other question - assuming you understand what Dawkins is talking about, what word or phrase would you consider best to describe what he's talking about? And don't say Eacita.

 

[Cuddles]

I'm about as strongly atheistic as they come, but I agree with Dawkins here. Like it or not, Christianity is a major part of our history and our culture. Whatever holidays were called thousands of years ago, they are called Christmas and Easter now. Whatever happens in the future, Christianity is the official religion now (although fortunately only in England, and possibly Scotland, not the UK). While Britain tends to the "Sunday morning Christian" end of things, rather than the more evangelical US style, the majority of peple still describe themselves as Christians. The influence of Christianity is declining, and hopefully will continue to do so, but there is no point denying that it is still there, and more importantly that it was there in the past and has helped shape pretty much all of our history.

I believe all Dawkins was trying to say is that he acknowledges all this. He's not pandering to anyone, he's just saying that he isn't trying to get everyone to throw out traditions that the majority of people, Chrisitian or otherwise, enjoy. It doesn't matter if you call it Christmas or Saturnalia, to most people it's just a good excuse to have a few days off work, eat and drink too much and watch some TV that you would never admit to watching any other time. It doesn't matter if you're singing about angels or about flourescent reindeer, it's the singing that people enjoy.

I am all for getting rid of Christianity, and all other religions, but that doesn't mean we have to throw out our entire culture just because it was influenced by Christianity. That is all Dawkins is saying. Regardless of the reason we have Christmas, we do have it now and he doesn't want to get rid of it. In the same way that you can have atheist Jews, you can have atheist Christians. The culture is that of the dominant religion, but you don't have to hold to the religion itself.

 

[T'ai Chi]

He's pandering. You can't say out of one side of your mouth that getting rid of religion means getting rid of violence, and then say out of the other side of your mouth 'oh, Im for keeping some of it'.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Um yeah... let's re-define words to mean whatever we want.

Words like "random"?

 

[Foster Zygote]

Biologists should stick to biology. Outside of their sphere they get a lil' lost.

And yet T'ai Chi continues to talk about matters of biology that he is obviously ignorant of.

 

[joobz]

He's pandering. You can't say out of one side of your mouth that getting rid of religion means getting rid of violence, and then say out of the other side of your mouth 'oh, Im for keeping some of it'.

Yes, it's almost like he's saying he likes nuclear power but hates nuclear war. madness!

 

[Darat]

He's pandering. You can't say out of one side of your mouth that getting rid of religion means getting rid of violence, and then say out of the other side of your mouth 'oh, Im for keeping some of it'.

Perhaps you can't but since that is not what Dawkins said it has nothing to do with what he actually did say...

 

[brodski]

Is that motto on UK currency as well?

No, we prefer "My God and My Right" although I'm not sure how many denominations it is currently inscribed on.

 

[Big Les]

Yes, it's almost like he's saying he likes nuclear power but hates nuclear war. madness!

Or likes medieval fairs but disapproves of bloody violence, poverty, and plague pits.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

If other religions have as good holydays* as Christmas I really, really want them to become mainstream.

*Excuse to senselessly consume food and anything else to excess, an excuse to just be extra nice to anyone, two days public holidays and so on. A good summer one would be appreciated.

Since many Britons appear ever more glad to be rid of the U.S., why not suggest the adoption of July 4th?

 

[Darat]

That would be celebrating a civil war and I'm not keen on celebrating wars, I prefer to celebrate good stories.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

Judaism, Darat. Darat, Judaism.

You two get yourselves acquianted now. I think you're going to like Purim...

In fact, it's said that jujst about every Jewish holiday can be summed up in nine words:

"They tried to overpower us.
We survived.
Let's eat."

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

That would be celebrating a civil war and I'm not keen on celebrating wars, I prefer to celebrate good stories.

Point taken. How about a feast day for Doubting Thomas?

 

[danielk]

Well this argument doesn't make much sense, in fact, it seems to say 'hey, don't make any progress at all'. There's been no culture, from what I can tell, with atheism as its center, and probably no time in history of the world where atheists have been a majority.

I hate to break it to you, but here's the data from where I live:

Religious affiliations in Berlin of 3.4 million inhabitants

Roman-catholic|9.1 %|112 churches
Evangelic|22.3 %|461 churches
Muslim|6.2 %|46 mosques
Orthodox|1.32 %|8 churches
Jewish|0.4 %|7 synagogues
Buddhist|0.19 %|
Others|1.4 %|453 places
Free of confession| 59.3 % |

Source: fowid

Note that "Free of confession" does not necessarily mean no belief in a god of some sort, but for the majority it does. Add to that the large numbers of people who only nominally belong to a church:

Atheists in Germany nominally belonging to a religious group

Evangelic|20.6 %
Free evangelic churches|7.9 %
Catholic|9.0 %
Other Christian denominations|2.0 %
Non-Christian denominations|9.9 %
Free of confession|61.0 %

Source: fowid - Konfessionslose

Scary, eh? I love it.

 

[Dragon]

Just to note that the comments by Dawkins linked to in the OP are consistent with what he has said and written in the past about The Bible and the Church of England

Richard Dawkins, the atheist author of The God Delusion, believes that children should grow up reading the Bible and says that he has a “soft spot” for the Church of England.

link

 

[Mobyseven]

In fact, it's said that jujst about every Jewish holiday can be summed up in nine words:

"They tried to overpower us.
We survived.
Let's eat."

That actually describes half the Jewish holidays. The other half is as follows:

"They tried to overpower us.
They destroyed a lot of stuff.
Let's not eat."

Between the overeating holidays and the fasting holidays, a healthy weight is somehow maintained.

 

[This Guy]

Quote:
Scientist Richard Dawkins, an atheist known worldwide for arguing against the existence of God, has described himself as a "cultural Christian".

He told the BBC's Have Your Say that he did not want to "purge" the UK of its Christian heritage.
The comments came after Tory MP Mark Pritchard accused "politically correct" people of undermining Christmas. Professor Dawkins, author of the God Delusion, added that he liked "singing Carols along with everybody else".
This is historically a Christian country. I'm a cultural Christian in the same way many of my friends call themselves cultural Jews or cultural Muslims.

"So, yes, I like singing Carols along with everybody else. I'm not one of those who wants to purge our society of our Christian history. "If there's any threat these sorts of things, I think you will find it comes from rival religions and not from atheists

It kinda funny this subject came up now. Just a day or two before this thread was started I was debating confessing that I liked many of the Christmas songs that get air time this time of year.

I'm not so embarrassed about that now

(I love the one Bing did, where he whistles, White Christmas I think? And the one he sang with David Bowie also, Little Drummer Boy?)

 

[NobbyNobbs]

That actually describes half the Jewish holidays. The other half is as follows:

"They tried to overpower us.
They destroyed a lot of stuff.
Let's not eat until later tonight, when we'll stuff ourselves silly."

Between the overeating holidays and the fasting holidays, a healthy weight is somehow maintained.

Fixed.

 

[Mobyseven]

...true.

 

[T'ai Chi]

Note that "Free of confession" does not necessarily mean no belief in a god of some sort, but for the majority it does.

You have yet to present actual statistics for *this* claim.