Is Science getting closer to God and the Bible?

[kmortis]

Yes, I said I'd recheck the article. The 2007 World Book does say in its article on Tacitus that he is one of the world's greatest historians.

Tacitus was one of the world's greatest historian of the ancient age. His works are vitally important to understanding the history of the Roman Emipre, especially the late Republic and Early Emperial periods.

Having said this, you really have to understand that the way history was recorded then was quite different than what we expect today. Tacitus, in the manner of his contemporaries, wrote down what he thought to be the essesence of the story. It didn't really matter if the essesence was anything approaching the truth, so long as it sounded good. What this means is that his histories are full equal parts of history, haigography, mythology and rumor. There have been plenty of parts that have been shown to be innaccurate, granted less for Tacitus than some others, but that's like saying that the Atlantic ocean is smaller than the Pacific, they're both damned big.

The key phrase is "Trust, but verify".

 

[joobz]

Conclusively prove that a one celled or a multi-celled living organism evolved over time from non living chemicals.

Well then conclusively prove it to those in the thread who are qualified. You'll probably win the Nobel Prize if you do.

DOC, your statement is made in bad faith and I called you on it. You ask for conclusive proof of abiogenesis and yet take on faith the story of creation?

I, of course, can not present information as to how it exactly happened. But, what can be presented are examples of whether such things are indeed even possible.

Step 1: Nucleic acids can be synthesized from simple molecules non-enzymatically.

Chemical evolution: the mechanism of the formation of adenine under prebiotic conditions. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2007 Oct 30;104(44):17272-7.

Our detailed computational investigations of step-by-step formation pathways from AICN(b) show how adenine can arise abiotically. Although the formation of adenine by the pentamerization of HCN is very exothermic, this process is quite unlikely in isolation (gas phase). Not only must five HCN molecules come together, but also the reaction barriers are very high. The intimate participation of an additional molecule, such as H2O or NH3 (or perhaps HCN) is needed to lower the barriers considerably to realistic energies. Moreover, an aqueous medium facilitates the reaction, because both specific and bulk solvation lowers the barrier of the rate-determining step further. The reaction energetics are mostly governed by the enthalpy change (see Fig. 2 legend) especially at the low temperatures of some of the experiments.

Step 2: Poly(nucleotides) can be synthesized nonenzymatically

Lipid-assisted Synthesis of RNA-like Polymers from Mononucleotides. Orig Life Evol Biosph. 2007 Nov 16

A fundamental problem in research on the origin of life is the process by which polymers capable of catalysis and replication were produced on the early Earth. Here we show that RNA-like polymers can be synthesized non-enzymatically from mononucleotides in lipid environments. The RNA-like polymers were initially identified by nanopore analysis, a technique with single molecule sensitivity. To our knowledge, this is the first such application of a nanopore instrument to detect RNA synthesis under simulated prebiotic conditions. The synthesis of the RNA-like polymers was confirmed by standard methods of enzymatic end labeling followed by gel electrophoresis. Chemical activation of the mononucleotides is not required. Instead, synthesis of phosphodiester bonds is driven by the chemical potential of fluctuating anhydrous and hydrated conditions, with heat providing activation energy during dehydration. In the final hydration step, the RNA-like polymer is encapsulated within lipid vesicles. This process provides a laboratory model of an early stage of evolution toward an RNA World.

Step 3: Membrane formation and encapsulation of components

The influence of environmental conditions, lipid composition, and phase behavior on the origin of cell membranes. Orig Life Evol Biosph. 2007 Jun;37(3):267-85. Epub 2007 Mar 15

At some point in life's development, membranes formed, providing barriers between the environment and the interior of the 'cell.' This paper evaluates the research to date on the prebiotic origin of cell membranes and highlights possible areas of continuing study. A careful review of the literature uncovered unexpected factors that influence membrane evolution. The major stages in primitive membrane formation and the transition to contemporary cell membranes appear to require an exacting relationship between environmental conditions and amphiphile composition and phase behavior. Also, environmental and compositional requirements for individual stages are in some instances incompatible with one another, potentially stultifying the pathway to contemporary membranes. Previous studies in membrane evolution have noted the effects composition and environment have on membrane formation but the crucial dependence and interdependence on these two factors has not been emphasized. This review makes clear the need to focus future investigations away from proof-of-principle studies towards developing a better understanding of the roles that environmental factors and lipid composition and polymorphic phase behavior played in the origin and evolution of cell membranes.

This is far from an inclusive list, but simply demonstrates what types of steps would be required. No one claims that this isn't speculation, but you asked for a naturalistic pathway. It isn't a stretch to to think that such a pathway would exist.


Now, the question that should be asked is what step in abiogenesis represents for you the impossible step and explicitly needs god's intervention to occur?

 

[Slimething]

Well then conclusively prove it to those in the thread who are qualified.

Who's qualified? I'm a chemist by profession. IOW, a scientist who makes his money based on his scientific expertise.

You are correct that joobz cannot prove to anyone that you lack understanding of science. Only you can do that. To my mind, you have done an admirable job of just that.

 

[joobz]

Who's qualified? I'm a chemist by profession. IOW, a scientist who makes his money based on his scientific expertise.

You are correct that joobz cannot prove to anyone that you lack understanding of science. Only you can do that. To my mind, you have done an admirable job of just that.

actually, he was asking me to conclusively prove abiogenesis to the people who are qualified to understand the science.

 

[kmortis]

Who's qualified? I'm a chemist by profession. IOW, a scientist who makes his money based on his scientific expertise.

You are correct that joobz cannot prove to anyone that you lack understanding of science. Only you can do that. To my mind, you have done an admirable job of just that.

And I'm an electromagnetic interference engineer by profession, with one hobby being history and historical research. Currently I'm interested in the Roman Empire, but I've studied various periods from the American Revolution to WWII. I spend a few years on each, until I'm comfortable with the material then I move on. I'm no expert, but I've built up a rather good BS detector.

And since half my paying job is designing and performing qualification tests who's outcome can impact human life, I've gotten some learnin' on how to construct a proper experiment.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

DOC, you're well known for avoiding responses and doing the Gish Gallop, but how about you address the single topic that H3LL has raised.

How do you support the assertion that "Let us make man in our image" in any way correllates with what is known from the fossil and genetic record regarding how humans came to exist?

 

[Slimething]

actually, he was asking me to conclusively prove abiogenesis to the people who are qualified to understand the science.

Perhaps, joobz, but all science is based on the Scientific Method. That's always the base. From reading his posts, I have formed the opinion that DOC hasn't gotten even that far. How anyone could claim to extrapolate the current knowledge of science from as badly written a work as the bible is beyond me. To do so, the presenter must convincingly explain how the quote could have no other interpretation.

 

[joobz]

Perhaps, joobz, but all science is based on the Scientific Method. That's always the base. From reading his posts, I have formed the opinion that DOC hasn't gotten even that far. How anyone could claim to extrapolate the current knowledge of science from as badly written a work as the bible is beyond me. To do so, the presenter must convincingly explain how the quote could have no other interpretation.

perhaps, I'm missing your point becauce there is nothing that you said that I disagree with.

I was not claiming whether his request was reasonable or even intelligible. I was simply stating that I do not think he was asking for me to prove that he has no scientific ability.

I had already proved this fact when he decided to suggest that an oxygen rich atmosphere would extend life spans. DOC couldn't counter my claims as to why that is patent nonsense. Instead, he chose to act as though my whole argument was only one from authority, becuase I happened to mention that I did research in the area of oxygen toxicity.

 

[six7s]

To do so, the presenter must convincingly explain how the quote could have no other interpretation.

I strongly suspect that, for DOC, anything - no matter how absurd - that props up his distorted world-view is convincing and anything - no matter how sensible - that threatens his distorted world-view is absurd

If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinise it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way.

I also suspect that such a bizarre, twisted and ignorant approach explains why he has no qualms about being involved in a critical thinking forum without actually thinking

 

[Slimething]

I had already proved this fact when he decided to suggest that an oxygen rich atmosphere would extend life spans. DOC couldn't counter my claims as to why that is patent nonsense. Instead, he chose to act as though my whole argument was only one from authority, becuase I happened to mention that I did research in the area of oxygen toxicity.

I saw that. I'm sorry I didn't chime in but I don't consider DOC receptive to facts and I would much rather read his posts for eye-rolling pleasure than try to argue with him.

You certainly have the superior background here but let me add that anyone who believes that increased oxygen concentration (or even activity) would be amicable to prolonged life must have fallen asleep in chemistry class in HS. All the evidence points decidedly in the other direction. Oxygen is an electron-rich molecule that dissociates easily, creating free radicals. Free radicals are the most potent chemical reactives known and are known to considerably accelerate aging and disease.

I have no idea what motivates DOC. I'm not convinced he's lying. He may merely be delusional, having an organic need to believe an anachronism of a book against all knowledge and reason. Or he may have a basic incapacity to learn. Who knows? His evasiveness does lend itself to his being a liar but he may merely recognize that he lacks a good rebuttal and is too lazy to go get one.

 

[wahrheit]

I also suspect that such a bizarre, twisted and ignorant approach explains why he has no qualms about being involved in a critical thinking forum without actually thinking

Read his posts, follow his threads (I know you did). He is not in the slightest interested in thinking or debate. He even admitted to it with posting something along the lines "I only put the info out there, it is up to the readers to make up their minds". The only purpose of his threads and posts is to spam his christian conservative uber-fundie world view into the internets.

Take this thread's title, for example. Why is it in the form of a question when DOC is not interested in an answer?

 

[joobz]

I saw that. I'm sorry I didn't chime in but I don't consider DOC receptive to facts and I would much rather read his posts for eye-rolling pleasure than try to argue with him.

For some reason, I keep hoping that he'll change and admit when he's wrong. Perhaps I'm a sucker for punishment.

You certainly have the superior background here but let me add that anyone who believes that increased oxygen concentration (or even activity) would be amicable to prolonged life must have fallen asleep in chemistry class in HS. All the evidence points decidedly in the other direction. Oxygen is an electron-rich molecule that dissociates easily, creating free radicals. Free radicals are the most potent chemical reactives known and are known to considerably accelerate aging and disease.

exactly! It's all a slow burn. That was my research, in antioxidant therapies. I developed methods to prolong and target antioxidant enzymes to the lungs. BTW, my background is in chemical engineering so I'm like a chemist stepchild.

 

[DOC]

Tacitus was one of the world's greatest historian of the ancient age. His works are vitally important to understanding the history of the Roman Emipre, especially the late Republic and Early Emperial periods.

Having said this, you really have to understand that the way history was recorded then was quite different than what we expect today. Tacitus, in the manner of his contemporaries, wrote down what he thought to be the essesence of the story. It didn't really matter if the essesence was anything approaching the truth, so long as it sounded good.

Do you have any source for the sentence I put in bold.

 

[DOC]

You certainly have the superior background here but let me add that anyone who believes that increased oxygen concentration (or even activity) would be amicable to prolonged life must have fallen asleep in chemistry class in HS. All the evidence points decidedly in the other direction. Oxygen is an electron-rich molecule that dissociates easily, creating free radicals. Free radicals are the most potent chemical reactives known and are known to considerably accelerate aging and disease.

exactly! It's all a slow burn. That was my research, in antioxidant therapies.

Maybe you guys ought to read this new book. It might change your mind. Its called "The Oxygen Revolution" written by a doctor.

On the front of the book it says

HYPERBARIC OXYGEN THERAPY:

The Groundbreaking New Treatment for

DIABETES
AUTISM
HEART DISEASE
STROKE
ARTHRITIS
AIDS
ASTHMA

And it lists about 16 more diseases.

 

[Tanstaafl]

Ah, another miracle treatment that cures everything.

It'll be interesting to hear from whoever here has the appropriate medical background. Reading the blurbs and reviews on Amazon, I suspect it won't be favorable.

Certainly the info presented so far here argues strongly against it.

 

[joobz]

Maybe you guys ought to read this new book. It might change your mind. Its called "The Oxygen Revolution" written by a doctor.

On the front of the book it says

HYPERBARIC OXYGEN THERAPY:

The Groundbreaking New Treatment for

DIABETES
AUTISM
HEART DISEASE
STROKE
ARTHRITIS
AIDS
ASTHMA

And it lists about 16 more diseases.

Oh, DOC, there is a clear difference between transient oxidative stress and persistent oxidative stress.
Transient stress induces the upregulation of antioxidant enzymes, so when you are under the normoxic environment you are better protected. This is actually one of the ways exercise is good for your heart/vasculature. Increased blood flow results in a shear induced oxidative stress response, again providing prophylactic protection against daily oxidative injury. This same mechanism is exploited in some heart surgeries via a process known as ischemic preconditioning. Of course, in that setting, blood flow is temporarily stopped in order to induce the oxidative stress.

Now, under persistent oxidative stress environments, your body will upregulate its antioxidant defenses and will serve to defend against the increased onslaught of radicals.(mostly in lungs in hyperoxic environments). However, this upregulation and constant stress is a more difficult setting to maintain. Also, if our antioxidant defenses are already occupied with simply defending against the oxidative environment, we lose the extra capcity to defend against transient stress systems. E.g., times of exercise may become damaging. tissue damage from White blood cells fighting off infections may become more severe(WBC release large amounts of oxygen radicals, super oxide, in an effort to kill of invading bacteria).

Also, note that hyperbaric oxygen (high pressure oxygenm which can be hyperoxic(>21% or not), is even more damaging under long term use. Oxygen carriage in the blood is restricted to the hemoglobin content. Oxygen solubility in the plasma at normal pressure and atmosphere is rather low. However, under increased pressure, solubilty goes up. This means a lot more oxygen gets to the brain, which isn't a good thing. This typically leads to seizures via unknown mechanisms.


J Heart Lung Transplant. 2006 Nov;25(11):1302-9

Normobaric supplemental oxygen can prolong seizures not caused by hyperbaric oxygen therapy. In addition, hyperbaric oxygen therapy can cause seizures. The mechanism of hyperbaric oxygen-induced seizures is unknown. We hypothesized that pretreatment with pyridoxine may delay the onset of hyperbaric oxygen-induced seizures, recognizing that pyridoxine is already an antidote for some epileptogenic poisons such as isoniazid and monomethylhydrazine. Therefore, rats were pretreated with intraperitoneal injections of pyridoxine at 48, 24, and 2 h before undergoing hyperbaric oxygen (HBO) treatment at 3 atmospheres absolute with 100% oxygen and were compared to a control group of HBO-treated rats for time to onset of seizures. There was no difference in onset of seizure time between the pyridoxine-treated group of rats and the control rats. Supplemental pyridoxine pretreatment did not alter the time to onset of seizures during HBO treatment in this study.

DOC, I am quite serious when I say that you are plain and simply wrong on this subject. Your attempt at finding evidence to avoid admiting this was a waste of time. You could have saved yourself much effort and gained some respect had you simply admitted that you made a mistake and made a claim that was patently wrong.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Maybe you guys ought to read this new book.

Have you read it?

It might change your mind.

It claims that living in an enriched oxygen environment will prolong a normal, healthy person's life? Can you show us where it says this?

Its called "The Oxygen Revolution" written by a doctor.

DOC, you do realize that Joobz has a Ph.D. in biological chemistry, yes? Did you miss that part where he said that this is his area of research? Yes DOC, Joobz is a doctor too and is an expert in the matters that you are discussing.

On the front of the book it says

Did you read past the cover?

HYPERBARIC OXYGEN THERAPY:

The Groundbreaking New Treatment for

DIABETES
AUTISM
HEART DISEASE
STROKE
ARTHRITIS
AIDS
ASTHMA

And it lists about 16 more diseases.

Whether any of these claims are legitimate or not, does it anywhere claim that living in an enriched oxygen environment will prolong a healthy person's life beyond normal expectancy? Hyperbaric oxygen therapy is used to treat specific medical problems, as are many other treatments and chemicals that can be harmful or deadly in too great a quantity or when misapplied.

 

[joobz]

Ah, another miracle treatment that cures everything.

It'll be interesting to hear from whoever here has the appropriate medical background. Reading the blurbs and reviews on Amazon, I suspect it won't be favorable.

Certainly the info presented so far here argues strongly against it.

Actually HBO is quite an interesting therapy. The most common treatments that the group I worked in were for sepsis, gangrene, and carbon monoxide poisoning.

I could think of mechanisms in which those other diseases may help(e.g., stroke), but I'm not aware of what's been/being done right now. Or how effective it actually is.

 

[joobz]

DOC, you do realize that Joobz has a Ph.D. in biological chemistry, yes? Did you miss that part where he said that this is his area of research? Yes DOC, Joobz is a doctor too and is an expert in the matters that you are discussing.

For sake of accuracy
my PhD is in Chemical Engineering. (thesis work in drug delivery)
My NIH NRSA post doctoral experience was in pharmacology, specifically vascular oxidative stress.
I do not have an MD.

 

[Slimething]

What is wrong with this idiot? Doesn't he know anything?

I'm no joobz but I do have some training in biology. The only thing a hyperbaric chamber is known to do is to accelerate the healing of distressed tissue. Athletes use it to recover more quickly from sprains, strains, stretched/broken ligaments and broken bones. This effect is caused by the athlete being immobile in the chamber (they're usually asleep) with enriched oxygen to the tissues. Oxygen is the necessary oxidizer for the fuel (food) in your body. When the body needs repair, it needs both more fuel and more oxidizer. Like everything in life, this treatment has a cost. More oxygen in the bloodstream, more free radicals in same. The patient swaps an immediate benefit for a long-term detriment.

This is the same reason that medical experts insist that you lie in bed when you have a cold, a pulled muscle, etc. Get plenty of bed rest. Sound familiar? If you are walking around doing your usual stuff, you are using most of your energy in walking, seeing, thinking etc, instead of using it for healing.

The claim that hyperbaric chambers can do anything other than regenerate tissue is bogus. It will do nothing for ADD, ADHD, depression, AIDS, arthrytis, asthma, etc. It may do something for heart disease and stroke only if tissue repair will help.

Stop believing that idiot book, DOC. It's turning your brain to mush. Maybe a hyperbaric chamber will help that.