Dawkins: I'm a cultural Christian

[ImaginalDisc]

Please advise where in the bible Jesus advocates stoning, slavery, killing of children etc? This will help me greatly in an ongoing debate I'm having with a friend of mine who's flirting with Xtianity.

Here you go:

For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Matt 5:18

Ergo, all of the OT will apply, including wiping out neighboring villages that worship other gods and murdering unruly children, "until all is accomplished."

 

[A Christian Sceptic]

Here you go:



Matt 5:18

Ergo, all of the OT will apply, including wiping out neighboring villages that worship other gods and murdering unruly children, "until all is accomplished."

You should probably read that verse in context - specifically the verses after number 18.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

You should probably read that verse in context - specifically the verses after number 18.

You mean Matt 5:19? That only makes it worse.

Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

What are "least commandments?"

Deuteronomy 22:12 which forbids the very clothes you are probably wearing now?

You shall make yourself tassels on the four corners of your garment with which you cover yourself.

Lev 21:16-23 which forbids letting handicapped people in the temple?

The LORD said to Moses, "Say to Aaron: 'For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; no man with a crippled foot or hand, or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the offerings made to the LORD by fire. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the LORD, who makes them holy.

 

[Moochie]

Where would the economy be without Christmas?

M.

 

[rob_hebert]

For dogjones:
In regards to Jesus' views on stoning, child abuse, and slavery, what is most interesting is not what he says, but the fact that he says almost nothing. It's certainly obvious that the Old Testament condones all these things (binding of Isaac, the tale of Jephtah's daughter (Judges 11:28), Solomon's progressive views on child-rearing (Proverbs 23:13-14), etc.), and as a good Jew in the first century, Jesus would have known all this stuff was in the Torah. Yet, he didn't say "By the way, you know how Moses said that you can have slaves as long as they aren't Jewish? Well, slavery's bad all-around, guys. Don't do it, 'kay?"
You can explain this away by saying that he was a product of his time, but I think that a man meant to be a complete, eternal moral guide should cover day one stuff like slavery and rape. I've found that showing the incompleteness of Jesus' moral understanding is more useful than cherry picking quotes from the Bible.

But my favorite is still the part where Jesus talks about throwing people into a furnace at the end of the world in Matthew 13:41,42.

 

[Skeptic Guy]

My wife makes all us atheists look like dithering romantics, but she sings religious music in two choruses for the holidays (not just Christian music). It's fun, it's beautiful, and it's really quite easy to enjoy even though the corner of my mouth may be upturned in a slight smirk when contemplating the deep meaning of the music. There are still strong feelings from my childhood, a kind of melancholy hope that it all could be true, a pleasure in seeing people brought together for the love of music rather than political or economic reasons, memories of people I have loved for whom religious ideas were important, and even fond feelings for our philosophical arguments here.

I don't believe in a god, or even that the idea is particularly coherent. It's a simple lack of belief. But the cultural trappings do me no harm.

~~ Paul

Speaking, too, as an Atheist, Handel's Mesiah is wonderful. A friend of ours sings in a choir and that's the only way they get me in a church.

 

[rob_hebert]

Plus, if it wasn't for Christmas music, we wouldn't have Trans-Siberian Orchestra or Mannheim Steamroller. I wouldn't want to live in such a world.

 

[A Christian Sceptic]

You mean Matt 5:19? That only makes it worse.

I said verses. How about Matt 5:27-48 wher he specifically talks about different Old Testament laws. It doesn't seem like he's treating these Old Testament laws as unchanging or even accurate.

My point is - whatever you may take these teachings as meaning - simply taking one sentence out of context is bad scholarship.

You are welcome to do whatever you want, of course.

 

[Big Les]

Dawkins' attempt at pandering is as transparent as was the "Compassionate Conservatism" of a few years back.

Nonsense. You're reading that into what's being said. Would you say the same of a "cultural" Jew? It's perfectly possible to respect and enjoy traditions without actively practising or even condoning the religion that inspired (or co-opted) it.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

I said verses. How about Matt 5:27-48 wher he specifically talks about different Old Testament laws. It doesn't seem like he's treating these Old Testament laws as unchanging or even accurate.

My point is - whatever you may take these teachings as meaning - simply taking one sentence out of context is bad scholarship.

You are welcome to do whatever you want, of course.

You're making it even worse. Those sections specifically contradict the earlier passage admonishing us to adhere strictly to "the least commandments." The Bible is a horrible moral guide. Matt 27-48 prescribe self-mutilation to prevent thoughts of adultery, forbids divorce, forbids reciprocity in the face of violence which would completely invalidate any ideas of self-defense or justice, and culminate with the commandment to:

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Sorry, but if our ephemeral sky daddy is perfect, he should at least be able to write a clear moral guide devoid of blatant self-contradiction.

 

[dogjones]

All this is rather Matthew based - is there anything in the other gospels? Like the point about the moral incompleteness though.

 

[A Christian Sceptic]

You're making it even worse. Those sections specifically contradict the earlier passage admonishing us to adhere strictly to "the least commandments."

My point exactly.

The Bible is a horrible moral guide. Matt 27-48 prescribe self-mutilation to prevent thoughts of adultery, forbids divorce, forbids reciprocity in the face of violence which would completely invalidate any ideas of self-defense or justice, and culminate with the commandment to:

You might want to look up the definition of Hyperbole.

It's a good thing you don't believe Matt:27-48 the way you interpret - you'd be bound to hurt yourself.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

My point exactly.



You might want to look up the definition of Hyperbole.

No, you should look up the definition of "perfect." A perfect god would not write such a travesty of a moral guide.

It's a good thing you don't believe Matt:27-48 the way you interpret - you'd be bound to hurt yourself.

I don't believe in any part of the Bible at all. It's rubbish.

 

[Abe_the_Man]

I agree with Dawkins completely. I'm an atheist who grew up surrounded by Christianity and am thus a cultural Christian. Christmas was and still is my favourite time of year. I already have my tree up and the house is decorated top to bottom. I even plan on doing some christmas baking later this week. I love christmas carols and stories about Santa. I even love hearing the story of Jesus' birth every year as it brings back many many fond memories of my childhood. Just because you don't believe in god or Jesus doesn't mean you can't hope for 'peace on earth and good will to men'

 

[Mobyseven]

If other religions have as good holydays* as Christmas I really, really want them to become mainstream.


*Excuse to senselessly consume food and anything else to excess, an excuse to just be extra nice to anyone, two days public holidays and so on. A good summer one would be appreciated.

Judaism, Darat. Darat, Judaism.

You two get yourselves acquianted now. I think you're going to like Purim...

 

[Big Les]

I see secular celebration of Christmas as a transition toward some other midwinter festival that may one day replace it, just as Christmas replaced Saturnalia and other festivals. It has to happen naturally though for me - none of this contrived "festivus" nonsense. Until that happens (and if doesn't) I'm fine with celebrating my culturally inherited christmas traditions as an atheist, with my pagan girlfriend.

We're always being told by Christians how the trappings and commercialism of Christmas are not the real meaning of it. Well, that's fine. You guys have the meaning, we'll have the presents and the fun.

 

[Bikewer]

The late Isaac Asimov wrote frequently of the fact that though he was a committed atheist, he observed a variety of Jewish traditions as the cultural artifacts they were.
He saw no great contradiction in this.

 

[NeilC]

Just to broaden this out of Christmas and Easter celebrations - does Culturally Christian have a wider meaning?

Can we say that the effect of Christianity, it's way of looking at the world, it's traditions, it's heritage etc have created the culture we, who live in ostensibly Christian countries, benefit from?

For instance the "christian west" is on the whole more democratic and less harsh on offenders than much of the East. I wonder how much of that is down to christianity?

 

[JoeEllison]

I wonder how much of that is down to christianity?

None of it... it is DESPITE Christianity.

 

[Alice Shortcake]

...Can we say that the effect of Christianity, it's way of looking at the world, it's traditions, it's heritage etc have created the culture we, who live in ostensibly Christian countries, benefit from?

For instance the "christian west" is on the whole more democratic and less harsh on offenders than much of the East. I wonder how much of that is down to christianity?

I would suggest that this state of affairs is due to the fact that the Christian West experienced the Enlightenment and the East did not. Five hundred years ago in Europe witches were burned, traitors were dismembered, thieves had their hands cut off, women were treated as inferior beings - all with the blessing of the Christian church.