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Former conspiracy believer here

I gotta say, that when i was in my late teens / early twenties, i got a book written by David Icke, and it interested me. Pretty bizzare stuff, but i had a hunger to find out more, so i used to check his website, and Jeff Rense's website (UFO's & Conspiracy Theories)

Indeed, if you want to be wise to what these people are saying, you do have to read their books

As i gradually got older, my views started to change, i saw inconsistencies in what these people were saying, and never any retractions made (eg - Prison Planet website ran with "missile pods under the planes" 9/11 story)

When a headline went up at Rense's website "Bush Authorised the 9/11 Attacks" - "Blair ordered the London Bombings", that was the last straw, and i've never visted that site since.

Serious Allegations without evidence, i'm surprised either Blair or Bush haven't sued to be honest

Behind the scenes, i think you'll find these people are jealous:

More Famous
More Wealthy
Hold more power and influence

The Global Elite are NOT in control of our minds / lives

Terence McKenna once said "the reality is that no-one is really in charge"

He's more likely to be correct, especially when you see how inept the people 'in charge' are

Quoted in full just in case anybody missed that there was actually an on-topic post in this thread. Thanks for chipping in, AngrySteve, and sorry your post got buried in the bizarre navel-gazing discussion that this thread has degenerated into. It's good to see where you're coming from. I agree that, for many of us, the refusal of the conspiracy theorists to acknowledge their own mistakes, however transparently obvious they may be, is the ultimate blow to their credibility.

Dave
 
Well, who knows?

We do, actually. You don't.

Hmm, I definitely prefer "mindset." You strap it on and... "OK, this is me, these are my borders and that is now over there. Let's work!"

Nope. It's not something you can switch on and off. Anyone who says otherwise is deluded. Remember, your perceptions can fool you, just like they fool some peoplein thinking they have out-of-body experiences.

My only objection to objectivity is that some people forget it's just a mindset.

We don't forget it. We dispute it, if you haven't noticed.
 
You have to trust your own answers because....actually they're not your own answers. They're just the patterns of identification creating actions from thoughts. If you try and sit in denial of identification you never get to discover who you are.

That sounds nice in a sermon, but what the hell is it supposed to mean ?

Thoughts and beliefs only represent your identity for a transitory period. They serve to lead you into a deeper state of awareness and selfhood but you do have to pick them up and follow them to get there.

Evidence, please.
 
If you don't understand just how fallible the human mind is, and how psychological studies, scientific studies, have explored the mechanisms behind this fallability,

I would say that that is a reasonable evaluation to make, if one assumes that the universe comes into being and is sustained through innate objective process. However, this is not the case. It is simply that the mind has acquired the possibility to evaluate phenomena objectively, through a process of which it is not conscious, and now assumes that the universe actually IS objective.

The universe is actually not objective, it's just that if you look at it through that filter, it will of course appear so, at least up to a point. If you push objectivity far enough it breaks down, for example the emergent problems with the Theory of Matter in the wake of revelations about the subatomic world.

If you ask me, from Einstein onwards, the writing should have been on the wall for objectivity. Yet, what has happened over the last decade or so has been a certain hardening in the belief in objectivity, rather as though Tinkerbell will come back to life if we all believe in her. I'm just the kid in the crowd pointing out that actually the Emperor has no clothes. Objectivity is simply a belief system, arising unconsciously.

If I'm being objective then you have a choice to see this or not. If I'm being non-dual then of course there's no choice anyway, so whatever thought process is now triggered, well whatever....

Nick
 
If you push objectivity far enough it breaks down, for example the emergent problems with the Theory of Matter in the wake of revelations about the subatomic world.
Er, the behavior of single particles on the subatomic scale may be indeterministic (and even so, we still have statistical laws which are deterministic). But the point is, how on earth does material indeterminism support subjectivism?

There are a lot of good ideas in subjectivism when it comes to understanding how the human mind works, how we build a model of reality and use it, etc. However, with regards to the physical world, it's just a silly mind game in my opinion.
 
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Er, the behavior of single particles on the subatomic scale may be indeterministic (and even so, we still have statistical laws which are deterministic). But the point is, how on earth does material indeterminism support subjectivism?

Or, more to the point, the very nature of objectivity breaks down in this arena. It becomes clear that the act of observation can have an effect on that being observed.

Yet, many years after Young's Slit and similar experiments that demonstrate the fallability of the subject-object divide, the belief in the absolute validity of objectivism persists. It has nothing to do with science. The way the rest of the science dealt with the phenomena of the subatomic realm was simply to shuffle it all off into its own little department out of the way where it wouldn't upset their little theories any more. It's quite amusing really.

Objectivity is just a way of filtering information, nothing more. Metaphorically, the objectivist has put on a pair of rose-tinted glasses and now actually believes that all the world is pink. It is quite funny to watch them, going round and round in endless self-supporting arguments, actually believing this is reality. Only at the point of death will they get to realise the immense difference between conceptualisation and truth.

Daniel said:
There are a lot of good ideas in subjectivism when it comes to understanding how the human mind works, how we build a model of reality and use it, etc. However, with regards to the physical world, it's just a silly mind game in my opinion.

Well, I would largely agree. Objectivity is good for the world outside, subjectivity for the inner world. Though of course finally it is only the experience of objectivity that creates the sensation of there being this separation between inner and outer.

Nick
 
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Or, more to the point, the very nature of objectivity breaks down in this arena. It becomes clear that the act of observation can have an effect on that being observed.

Ah! Nick doesn't understand quantum physics, either. Why am I not surprised ?

Yet, many years after Young's Slit and similar experiments that demonstrate the fallability of the subject-object divide, the belief in the absolute validity of objectivism persists.

It demonstrates nothing of the sort, Nick. Get an education.

Objectivity is just a way of filtering information, nothing more.

Nick, I'm getting tired of you asserting things without proof, simply because your very philosophy precludes the existence of such proof. Maybe you should stay in the sandbox.
 
I agree that, for many of us, the refusal of the conspiracy theorists to acknowledge their own mistakes, however transparently obvious they may be, is the ultimate blow to their credibility.

Dave

Hi Dave,

Well, it will be interesting to see if this is the case. Certainly CTs are a far more interesting experiment than anything scientists get up to. Do the public buy something on the basis of evidence supplied? Zeitgeist the Movie is currently approaching 6m on Google Video alone, this in under 6 months. I would happily agree that, historically and scientifically, it's highly flawed. Yet this doesn't seem to undermine it's phenomenal popularity. I think evidence is relevant, but not particularly important when considering whether someone will believe something or not.

Nick
 
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It wasn't the first conspiracy theory I had swallowed, either. In retrospect, it is obvious that every time I've fallen for one it was primarily for emotional reasons rather than rational ones. A conspiracy theory doesn't stick unless it has some kind of emotional appeal.

Neither does a governmental lie


The second thing that drew me to the theory was the whole "action flick" aspect of the story. The story really does read like a movie, with missiles and explosives and a super-secret government plot to fool the public, which would have to be defeated by an impassioned popular movement to expose the truth. That's exciting stuff, if you believe it.

Funny because it's the official story that makes you suspend your disbelief with fundamental laws of science and reason.

You suspend it to believe the comic book villians. That 19 men in a cave led by a man on Dialysis outsmarted the CIA, FBI, MI-6, ISI, and every other acronym for intelligence in the world.

Not to mention the aluminum going through steel and success in which they hit their targets and the top gun piloting by a guy who couldn't even fly a Cessna.


Not to mention the comic book way in which they knew who the bad guys were on television within an hour of the attacks.

Yeah OS is like a freaking movie. Especially with the dramatic end with the towers collapsing after the attack and even though we can't find the enemny and his elaborate hideout we can somehow find the tape of him conveniently left in a cave confessing and bragging.



And the third thing that I liked about it was the feeling of being "in the know".

Chances are if you follow politics outside of what you see on TV you are in the know. Most people can't even tell you where the Declaration of Independence was even signed. There are people who don't even remember what year 9/11 was.

The American public values entertainment over politics.

The masses are very dumb.



When you start to believe in the conspiracy, you see the world divided into the following three groups:

1) The evil conspirators. People with no conscience, of pure evil, who will do anything for personal gain. They thirst for money and power, and if it means murdering thousands of people, that's just fine. They are also extremely good at keeping secrets. They are very competent at staging fake displays to fool the public, yet they are also such bumbling fools that evidence of the conspiracy is so obvious and plentiful that it is irrefutable

2) The dupes. These are the mindless drones who go about their daily lives believing whatever the media and the government tell them, i.e. pretty much everybody on the planet, including all the structural engineers and firemen with their so-called "evidence" (though some of them might be in the first category).

3) The freedom-fighting conspiracy theorists. These are the people who, from the comfort of their computer chairs, have seen through the veil of secrecy and lies. They have seen the videos and read the websites. They have filled their heads with so many half-truths about the events of that day that they feel the conspiracy theory is rock-solid. If anyone disproves one of their half-truths, there are thousands more to fall back on.

Here's your flaw. When it comes to accepting a conspiracy theory it isn't about your mental capacity as much as it is about your ability to be a free thinker and suspend your emotions in the way for science, logic, and reason.

When you take out the credulity there is substantial circumstantial evidence in many cases that people just look past. But in many cases it's not even credulity it's just plain uninformity of these anomalies that are unexplained






Eventually, however, I decided I couldn't only read conspiracy theorists anymore. I had to at least look at the claims of the opposition in detail, to see if I could refute their arguments and to see if maybe possibly I might be mistaken. Before that I was afraid of doing that, fearing that I might be sucked into being a government dupe again.

Well, that's exactly what happened. When I looked carefully at the conspiracy debunking sites, they made a lot of sense. I couldn't refute their arguments after all. And it seemed so much more plausible, once I actually saw that the "holes" in the official story weren't what I thought they were. Looking back, it seems absolutely crazy that I could have bought it hook, line and sinker like I did. I try to be skeptical and to not let my emotions get in the way of analyzing the facts wherever possible, but apparently I failed at that. Luckily I got better and with a dose of rationality I've been cured of the conspiracy delusion.

It is possible to change people's minds. Don't give up hope, guys.

WHat more than likely happened was those cognitive biases kicked in.

You accepted it because it made since but didn't use the same critical analyzing that you used when you analyzed the official story.

You wanted to accept that account which is what many did when that famous Popular Mechanics article came out.

But if you're not afraid to analyze it you can see the many flaws it has.

It's classic Hearst yellow journalism with the way the sophist use informal logic.

The entire investigative movement is treated straw man.


They basically assert


1)Here is the fundamental beliefs of those who believe in CTs

2)(Insert) Straw man, ad hominem, argument from ignorance, ad lapidem, ad populum

3)State that entire movement is debunked


It takes on the amateur theories instead of the heavy weight big time analogies that require explanation beyond structural engineers could even pretend to offer
 
One the most annoyning thing about the Truthers is they NEVER come up with anything new.Just the same old crap recycled.
And a Truther trying to pose as a skeptic is so old.....
 
One the most annoyning thing about the Truthers is they NEVER come up with anything new.Just the same old crap recycled.
And a Truther trying to pose as a skeptic is so old.....

Not nearly as new as the OS gatekeepers


1)Incompetence
2)Morality
 
Or, more to the point, the very nature of objectivity breaks down in this arena. It becomes clear that the act of observation can have an effect on that being observed.
I'm curious: How would you describe "the nature of objectivity"? The reason I ask is that the discovery of materialistic indeterminism was an objective discovery. It's an objective aspect of the nature of the universe. It's predictable. It's not expected to change, except perhaps when we retreat to the first moments of the Big Bang, to a moment we presently have no way to observe.

Indeterminism simply means we have no way to determine what a specific particle will do.

Yet, many years after Young's Slit and similar experiments that demonstrate the fallability of the subject-object divide, the belief in the absolute validity of objectivism persists. It has nothing to do with science. The way the rest of the science dealt with the phenomena of the subatomic realm was simply to shuffle it all off into its own little department out of the way where it wouldn't upset their little theories any more. It's quite amusing really.
And yet their little theories hold, despite the mysterious inner-workings of subatomic particles.

The slit experiment was one of the experiments that led to Quantum Electro-Dynamics, one of the most accurate theoretical models ever created. It can currently predict the probability of what will happen to a particle in an experiment with an accuracy of about 10^-12, and that's more a limitation of the instruments than the model.

If you're interested in what's been done since the slit experiments, start with a copy of Richard Feynman's QED:The strange theory of light and matter. It's a highly accessible and slim volume transcribed from his lecture series aimed at a lay audience. It's fascinating!

Objectivity is just a way of filtering information, nothing more. Metaphorically, the objectivist has put on a pair of rose-tinted glasses and now actually believes that all the world is pink. It is quite funny to watch them, going round and round in endless self-supporting arguments, actually believing this is reality. Only at the point of death will they get to realise the immense difference between conceptualisation and truth.
I suppose you could say objectivity is a way of filtering information. I think it's more accurate to say it's THE way of filtering information. Without objectivity, all you have is noise and impression. If it's not objectively filtered, it's not information.

Well, I would largely agree. Objectivity is good for the world outside, subjectivity for the inner world. Though of course finally it is only the experience of objectivity that creates the sensation of there being this separation between inner and outer.

Nick
Funny, I would say just the opposite: it's the experience of subjectivity that creates the sensation of separation between inner and outer.

I feel much more an extension of the universe, a transient flicker of expression on "the face of god", when I'm pondering life through the objective filter.
 
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Yes you can. You just did!

Thoughts arise in response to other thoughts, yes. The phenomenon of identification creates the experiences of them being "my" thoughts. It fuels the process.


PM said:
Once again, this is thinking about thinking.

This is true.

PM said:
Its parameters being everything we can observe, I don't see that this is a problem.

Well, by "its parameters" I meant rather the assumption of limited selfhood. Didn't really make that clear, it's true. Objectivity shows that which is visible through the assumption, or experience, of limited selfhood.

PM said:
chipmunk stew gave a list of just a few things that we owe to objectivity. I'd like to add a couple more: Food. Water. Clothing. Birth.

I would not for a second dispute that objectivity is highly functional. It's great. It's just that if one is trying to establish a priori truths about the self, it is largely not so much use, because it is preceding from the prior assumption of a limited self, a limited observer.

PM said:
It's a testable epistemological assumption.

It's testable within its own parameters. No one has yet validated the existence of limited selfhood through direct experience. Neither has anyone uncovered the brain process, should it exist, which allows the experience of limited selfhood to be created and sustained.

I'm not knocking objectivity. I'm not knocking identification. I wouldn't be able to write these thoughts down, did they not create the experience that there is a me that is writing them. Objectivity is great. But it is just a tool, and there are certain fields of enquiry for which it is not suited. If you want to investigate directly the illuminati, then you will have to leave objectivity behind, because the assumption it proceeds from procludes the gathering of useful data here.

Nick
 
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I think evidence is relevant, but not particularly important when considering whether someone will believe something or not.
True -- sadly. But you don't get it do you? "is" != "ought".

And when it comes to the results of human thought processes regarding the physical world, "is" vs "ought" translates to "false" vs "true". Or rather, "false" vs "possibly true".
 
If you want to investigate directly the illuminati, then you will have to leave objectivity behind, because the assumption it proceeds from procludes the gathering of useful data here.

Nick
What useful data have you gathered on the illuminati through direct subjective investigation?

By what standard do you measure usefulness of data?
 
I guess you're screwed, then. A revolution generally requires that the masses rise up against their oppressors.

...Unless you're thinking of tricking them into supporting you, that is...:yikes:

I have to admit things look bleak right now.

The sad thing is even without a monopoly of information, people are still uninformed

People of this generation care more about entertainment than politics.


It may be a long shot but more people are waking up to my side every day.


They are starting to question why they have never heard of these false flag operations and these secret societies especially Bilderberg.

They are starting to realize all the holes in the official narrative of 9/11 that have not been accounted for.

It's easy to apply credulity at first when you have no historical perspective on what a false flag operation even is in the first place.

But when you start to build that background and moved from those years of deception people break the veil

Perhaps since people see that our government is coniving enough to take advantage of an attack to start a war that costs thousands of lives, perhaps they are coniving enough to have actually taken place in the attacks.

And with all the coincidences if you apply logic and reason over emotions, it's much more than a possiblity.
 

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