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perhaps not everything is lost for astrology

As mentioned earlier, I think that the people like myself who are tying to convince themselves and others that astrology can be useful are searching for a philosophy which bridges the gap between religion and science, and these vague coincidences that we see in horoscopes are the nearest that we can get to real science.

As for the scientific tests that you suggest, I think that most astrologers I know would not submit to putting their beloved astrology though what they see as the cold claws of science. It is not that we don't understand science or that we object to it - it is just that we'd rather keep astrology as a spiritual descriptive system.

If it's a spiritual descriptive system, then it is nowhere near science, and cannot bridge a gap between science and anything.

What good is a "spiritual descriptive system"? Is that like finding out the exact colour of one's aura (which nobody can see anyway)?
 
Is this a trick? Isn't there a one in three chance that anyone could it right (not neccessarily an astrologer)?

Well, while everyone is thinking about that, I have a more philosophical question. How many of you guys believe in karma? To illustrate my point, suppose someone commits a crime and doesn't get caught. Will he or she ever experience any sort of punishment? Conversely, if someone is a really good person, does he or she receive any sort of reward for this behavior, either in this lifetime or another one.

The reason I'm asking, is that a large proportion of the idea behind human astrology is based on the idea of the birth chart being earned in some way. What do skeptics think about this?

There is a one in three chance of getting one chart right by chance.
There is a one in nine chance of getting two of two charts right by chance.
There is a one in 27 chance of getting three of three by chance...BUT...
There is a 6 in 27 chance of getting two of three by chance and
There is a 12 in 27 chance of getting one of three by chance.

The point of all this is that even if the advantage of the astrologer is small you can increase the number of tests and it becomes less and less likely that you can get a good score by chance. Three of ten is expected by chance alone, four of ten is good, but not all that impressive. But 4000 of 10,000 is very good, and likely indicates astrology works.

You seem to be arguing that astrology can't be tested by these sorts of methods because the charts are never 100%, which is fine--they don't need to be 100%. Even a jump from 1 in 3 to (33%) to 4 in 10 (40%) can be tested. It may be too difficult to test in practice, but it's testable. That's a scientific concept that has nothing to do with how hard it is to test something in practice.

I don't actually believe in karma, but I can't deny that jerks tend to get treated worse by others in the long run. However there are all sorts of things that influence how others treat you, and jerkdom is not necessarily the most important.
 
Hokulele: I know that I made a mistake yesterday claiming that Aurum had a connection to the physical sun, but since I now know that you know a lot about the history of science and about chemistry, perhaps you could consider this;

I think the reason I made the mistake is because in my knowledge of spiritual symbolism, the color yellow or gold is associated with the spiritual sun. On the Tree of Life, the central yellow sphere corresponds to the "Son Of God", also known as the Christ or Messiah. In Christianity, Jesus is known as the king of kings, and is often shown in paintings with rays emanating from his head in an aura. Also, even though people 1000 years ago didn't understand that the earth went round the sun, they still saw the sun as the life-giver to the earth, and therefore the "king".

When we combine these occult and religious views with the fact that real kings and rich people wore gold, which they saw as the "king", or most precious of the metals, and that gold is yellow and shiny, like the physical sun, perhaps we can see how people connected the two. I think that's what was going on in my mind when I connected them, and although it's not any reason to connect the letters Au with the physical sun, it leads me to the following question;

Do you think that Newton, and possibly other scientists were influenced by thier religious or occult views? I know that you touched on this yesterday Hokulele but maybe you could go into it a bit more deeply. It has been suggested that Newton was a Rosicrucian, and we know that he practiced alchemy. I've seen pictures of him sitting in a chair with two globes under his feet, both inscribed with astrological symbolism. What the heck was he doing? There are also stories that he had a sort of nervious breakdown - was it really from working with Antimony or poisenous metals, or was it something to do with the secrecy of all his alchemical, (and therefore spiritual, psychological and magical) experiments? What I'm saying is do you think that his occult beliefs actually helped him formulate the ideas of gravity and optics?

Similarly, do you think that Galileo's religious beliefs planted an idea that the physical sun - because it is the life giver to earth, giving light and warmth for plants to grow etc, would have a similar position in the physical world to the spiritual Sun/Son of God/Jesus in the religious world - in other words that it was at the center of a yet unknown system of astronomy, or a sort if "king"?
 
I am going to tackle this whole topic in two parts.

The problem I have with what you are doing is that you are simply taking what feels right to you, and assigning those ideas importance without looking into them any further. The bit with the Sun as "king" is a perfect example. It feels right to you, so you will go to any length to defend this position, without doing any further critical research into your ideas. As has been stated numerous times by several posters, you cannot simply look at the websites and data that agrees with you, you have to be able to accomodate the evidence that does not agree with you. You also have to be willing to let go of an idea if it doesn't work. I will give you an example from astronomy that applies to astrology.

Back when the planetary orbits were documented for prediction purposes, Mercury was noted to have some obvious deviations from its predicted path. Several astronomers theorized these perturbations could be caused by another planet, orbiting closer to the Sun. The theoretical planet was named Vulcan, and its potential properties were described. A few astrologers leaped upon this theoretical planet and included it in their charting. For all I know, some may still include it as woo doesn't die off easily. Years later, Einstein's theory of relativity explained the orbital oddities sufficiently, no extra planet is necessary. Now, put yourself in the place of an astrologer who had grown up believing in Vulcan. You had cast hundreds, maybe thousands of charts including this object. How do you think you would react to having someone take this object away from you? Now carry that to today. Do you incorporate Pluto in your astrological charting?

For the second point, with Newton and Galileo, you seem to be assuming they know what you know, and feel how you feel. This is where a study of history can come in handy, in that you will understand what was known and felt at that time. You firmly believe that your occult beliefs help you understand the world around you, so you are now assuming that Galileo and Newton felt the same way. There is an excellent book on Sir Isaac Newton by James Gleick (Isaac Newton) and a wonderful book on Galileo by Dava Sobel (Galileo's Daughter: A Historical Memoir of Science, Faith, and Love). Rather than speculate on the beliefs that were common in the time period and how they influenced these two men, read up on their histories. Who knows, you may find these to be far more fascinating than anything you could invent.
 
When we combine these occult and religious views with the fact that real kings and rich people wore gold, which they saw as the "king", or most precious of the metals, and that gold is yellow and shiny, like the physical sun, perhaps we can see how people connected the two.

"Perhaps"? The connection is about the most obvious one in all of spirituality.

But this doesn't mean that there is any real correlation between the two.
 
Similarly, do you think that Galileo's religious beliefs planted an idea that the physical sun - because it is the life giver to earth, giving light and warmth for plants to grow etc, would have a similar position in the physical world to the spiritual Sun/Son of God/Jesus in the religious world - in other words that it was at the center of a yet unknown system of astronomy, or a sort if "king"?

It all comes back to "the sky has nothing to do with it." The religious imagery (if any) saying "Sun=center" is exactly as irrelevant as the other religious imagery saying Earth=center (per Gaia), Jupiter=center (per the Greek pantheon), Mecca=center, Jerusalem=center, Rome=center, Palmyra, NY=center, and so on. The center is where our telescopes tell us it is---which, FYI, isn't even the sun. The orbital center (or "barycenter") of the Milky Way is about 1/1000ths of the way between the Sun and Jupiter---a bit of empty space just past the Sun's surface. Of course, now that you know that, you can probably use hindsight to show us how astrology knew all about it.
 
The orbital center (or "barycenter") of the Milky Way is about 1/1000ths of the way between the Sun and Jupiter---a bit of empty space just past the Sun's surface.

Really? I always thought that our sun and solar system was half way over on one of the spirals, near the rest rooms. I think you might be off by a tad, about 26,000 light years. No worry.
 
There is an excellent book on Sir Isaac Newton by James Gleick (Isaac Newton) and a wonderful book on Galileo by Dava Sobel (Galileo's Daughter: A Historical Memoir of Science, Faith, and Love). Rather than speculate on the beliefs that were common in the time period and how they influenced these two men, read up on their histories. Who knows, you may find these to be far more fascinating than anything you could invent.

I am not inventing anything - please read my original post; I was simply asking a question, speculating if you like, and wondered if you had any inside knowledge about these scientists because you have studied history. I am looking forward to reading the books you suggested.

Please don't assume things about my attitude and worldview just because I have studied astrology. Short of digging these men up, bringing them back to life and asking them, I don't think you, or I, or historians can definitely state with certainty whether Galileo was inspired by his religious beliefs, or Newton by his alchemical practices, but on the other hand, neither can we say that they were not.
 
Really? I always thought that our sun and solar system was half way over on one of the spirals, near the rest rooms. I think you might be off by a tad, about 26,000 light years. No worry.

What? :eek: (slaps forehead) I meant solar system.
 
Back when the planetary orbits were documented for prediction purposes, Mercury was noted to have some obvious deviations from its predicted path. Several astronomers theorized these perturbations could be caused by another planet, orbiting closer to the Sun. The theoretical planet was named Vulcan, and its potential properties were described. A few astrologers leaped upon this theoretical planet and included it in their charting. For all I know, some may still include it as woo doesn't die off easily. Years later, Einstein's theory of relativity explained the orbital oddities sufficiently, no extra planet is necessary. Now, put yourself in the place of an astrologer who had grown up believing in Vulcan. You had cast hundreds, maybe thousands of charts including this object. How do you think you would react to having someone take this object away from you? Now carry that to today. Do you incorporate Pluto in your astrological charting?

There's a big difference in these two examples, Vulcan was found not to exist, and Pluto very much still exists, but was demoted by a bunch of astronomers because it didn't meet certain specifications.

In order to understand what goes on in the mind of astrologers when planets are discovered (or not), we have to look at the theory of spiritual astrology. I think I mentioned this earlier on, but basically, according to this theory, planets are discovered by astronomers when they are meant to be discovered. The theory says that when planets are discovered, there is something going on in human evolution that represents the meaning of that planet.

One fact that always amazes me is how the outer planets Uranus, Neptune and Pluto got their names. These planets were named after Greek or Roman gods, which by coincidence , happen to have the same sort of psychological traits that astrologers see in people with these planets in strong aspect to the inner planets in their horoscopes. I know what you are going to say! You are going to say that astrologers just see what they want to see, and cherry pick charts which only exhibit traits that prove their theory, but, what can I say, I didin't make the theory up. The biggest evidence that this might be true is to look at the important events in history from around 1781, 1846 and 1930, which I wrote about on page 2 or 3 so won't repeat.

When we look at Pluto in relation to history, and at thousands of horoscopes with it, we can correlate it to certain traits - even with all the possible errors that skeptics have pointed out, you would, I think, have a hard time convincing astrologers that Pluto didn't have a very strong psychological correlation in a chart. Pluto says a lot to astrologers about power, control secrecy, and transformation, and it would be difficult to analyze a person's horoscope without it. Just because Pluto's external classification has changed from planet to dwarf planet doesn't change its spiritual and psychological symbolism at all.

The recent declassification did bring other changes as well. The object Ceres, which was previously classed as an asteroid, has now been upgraded to a dwarf planet. This hasn't affected many astrologers, as they still think that Sun through Pluto works for them, but others think that Ceres evens out the male-female balance a little.

Back in the 1850s when Vulcan was proposed, astrologers were still waiting for a body to be discovered which would explain certain human personality traits, and also divine characteristics. In many ways, Vulcan's symbology was similar to Pluto's, and we can't blame astrologers for doing what they do just because science was doing science (making a theory, proving it wrong and then trying again). In the tarot series (drawn up around 1200 to correspond to the letters of the Hebrew alphabet), and in the kaballistic Tree of Life, the key/path known as Key 20, or Judgement, was assigned to this "new" planet, first Vulcan, and then Pluto.
 
One fact that always amazes me is how the outer planets Uranus, Neptune and Pluto got their names. These planets were named after Greek or Roman gods, which by coincidence , happen to have the same sort of psychological traits that astrologers see in people with these planets in strong aspect to the inner planets in their horoscopes.


Which came first, the name of the planet, or the association with personality traits?

Honestly, I don't think you have understood a single point I was trying to make.
 
Which came first, the name of the planet, or the association with personality traits?
Honestly, I don't think you have understood a single point I was trying to make.

:confused: I am a little confused.
 
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:confused: I am a little confused.

I think the idea might be that astrologers saw certain personalities because of the way the planets wer named. If something is suggested to us (eg by a name), it is very easy to see the relevant traits and ignore the others. I am sure there have been experiments (I might be wrong on the details, but I'm sure something along these long thse lines was done) which showed films of people behaving in a certain circumstance. When peole were told they had a certain charateristic, they interpreted what they saw much differently than when they were told the person had another characteristic - when the exact same film was shown. Please think about this and try to see how it could explain why you see what you see in astrology - and why the scientific tests do not bear this out.
 
The reason I'm asking, is that a large proportion of the idea behind human astrology is based on the idea of the birth chart being earned in some way. What do skeptics think about this?

Hi, Aquila. I know very little about astrology, but for some reason I was surprised to read this. What do you mean by the birth chart being earned?

What comes to mind is the idea of two babies being born at exactly the same time. One dies within moments of birth and the other lives a long, happy life. What can your version of astrology teach us about that?

Thanks.
 
Aquila, the point about planets existing or not existing, being discovered, downgraded, upgraded, etc., is this:

For generations, astrologers cast horoscopes and made predictions. These were made based on the knowledge they had at the time.

Then, in 1930, this whole new planet - Pluto - was discovered. That means that, if astrology were valid, in fact Pluto was influencing all those people for thousands of years, whether they knew about it or not. But none of that influence was included or accounted for by the charts cast prior to that discovery, which believers in astrology will try to tell you were just as accurate as charts cast afterward, even though they could not have included Pluto's influence because it was not known.

[As my own aside:

(As an aside, as part of my History of Science curriculum, I also took one semester on the history of chemistry. Anyone want to know how to make cinnabar?)

Hokulele, I thought cinnabar was mercury ore. Can you make mercury ore from mercury?]
 
Aquila, if the planet Mars wasn't the colour of blood - the stuff that gets spilled in battle and suffuses the faces of enraged persons - do you think it would still have been named after the god of war? If Venus wasn't a beautiful blue, like the sea from which the goddess of love was born, would it still have been named after her? You seem to be confusing cause and effect.
 
:confused: I am a little confused.

Since someone seems to have me on IGNORE I guess I might as well stop posting in this thread again.

However, with respect to this post, all I can say that, if "completely and utterly" for "a little" in the the quoted post, I might be convinced of something. :boggled:
 
[As my own aside: Hokulele, I thought cinnabar was mercury ore. Can you make mercury ore from mercury?]


Cinnabar is basically Mercury Sulfide (HgS). It is naturally occuring and can mined to extract the mercury, or used to make pigments (vermillion?). It can also be made synthetically, and was treated like a medicine by alchemists in a manner similar to other toxins such as arsenic. The process used to make cinnabar uses a solution of mercury salt, rather than mercury (sometimes known as quicksilver). We were required to do a lab where we made one alchemical substance, and I chose cinnabar mostly because I liked the color. :o
 

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