Hello JREF, I bring you "Tin Foil"!

[Vincent Vega]

Well, I haven't gone there, and try not to. I think it's fair to say we've had very similar run-ins with antisocial "truthers" as have been experienced here on JREF. However, we tend to disable or ban their accounts until they learn civility, rather than keep them around as intellectual play toys.

Please kind sir, bless us with your elegegance once again and explain how you can make acusations of planted explosives in the world trade towers without accusing your fellow citizens of mass murder? Pretty please?

 

[SkepticGuy]

9/11 truth is made up of lies.

I've never made any assertions that I'm associated with, or supportive of "the truth movement." I once extended an offer of a helping hand, but that didn't work out so well.

Could you please explain to us how the government meddled

That comment of mine was from a while ago, and there's been a multitude of distractions since. A contemporary example (not 9/11-related) is in relation to the "government's" response to both the UFO sighting at the O'Hare airport (where the official FAA response was that no such thing ever happened, except that the tower logs refute such a claim) and the original and follow-up responses to the Barskdale warhead fiasco. Both are reasonably current and not difficult to locate. Given a history of the planting of obfuscatory "leads" such as had been discovered during the Watergate investigation (which had been disparaged as wild conspiracy theory), it's at least not much of a stretch to speculate recurrence.

If you're looking for a specific 9/11-conspiracy related example, it might take some time to dig it up.

 

[Brainster]

The "Truth Movement" was founded on good ideas and intentions, but the predominant ranks of activists have severely hurt their cause.

I think a lot of the people involved are legit; I am not so sure about the people at the top, making money.

Let's be honest, many of the people actively involved in "9/11 Truth" would be out protesting the World Bank or similar issues if not for 9/11 and the Iraq war. These people are not conspiracy theorists, they're anti-establishment activists who have latched onto a conspiracy-driven issue.

Agreed. Everyone's gotta have a cause or two. In fact, that's why so much of the Left is angry at the "Truthers" because they feel all that energy could be harnessed into something more useful.

The "movement" is besieged on all sides by:
1) Conspiracy profiteers promoting provocative theories to sell stuff
2) Politically passional activists seeking to protest almost anything
3) Attention seekers looking to draw a crowd with wild theories
4) Truly disturbed people with outlandish claims
5) And divisive manipulation by "gov'ment" meddling

Yes, even though I'm a skeptical critical-thinking conspiracy theorist, I have seen firm evidence to support #5, and we conspiracy folks have been documenting what has been popularized as "COINTELPRO" for decades (though that old-style term is now far too simplistic).

Most of us would probably agree with you on 1-4 above; I assume you can see that we would need to see solid evidence for 5. At least from what I've seen with the 9-11 "Truth" movement, most of the claims of "conintelpro" or "disinformation" have tended to be aimed at other people pushing theories that are considered outre; the No-Planers, the CIT guys, etc. In addition, it can be a handy club to use on one's enemies within the movement during particular power struggles; e.g., Webster Tarpley's attack on the Truth Action folks over the Kennebunkport Bunk.

From our standpoint it is hard to differentiate between these folks and 3 and 4. Is James Fetzer an operative, or is he just a fruitloop? Is the Web Fairy cointelpro, or is she just deranged? Is Killtown a psy-op, or is he just somebody who's spent too much time staring at grainy images on YouTube?

 

[VespaGuy]

SkepticGuy -

I'm a bit late to the party, but earlier you mentioned that being skeptical is part of being a conspiracy theorist. One of the foundations of skepticism is the ability to change your opinion based on evidence. So...

With regards to 9/11, can you please tell us of one conspiracy theory (bombs in towers, planted plane parts at Pentagon, etc) that you believe, and can you tell us what evidence could be presented to you that would make you change your mind.

Thanks

 

[SkepticGuy]

explain how you can make acusations of planted explosives in the world trade towers

I don't hold to that theory, and have never created anything (I can remember) that supported pre-planted explosives in the WTC. I've often speculated that the scenario of limited high-energy charges planted to weaken the core is the most plausible offshoot of the demolition theories, but I've not seen any material that support the idea of a crew of people spending enough pre-attack time in the building to accomplish even that task.

There's a multitude of various demolition theories that involve the need for teams of people to be doing "something" to the buildings. Since we have only a small handful of uncorroborated reports of "something" happening during the prior weekend, I don't think it's worthy of wasting any more time.

However, lots of people with credible backgrounds continue to look deep into this issue. It's worth looking into as long as wild speculation isn't presented as certainty.

 

[SkepticGuy]

SkepticGuy -
With regards to 9/11, can you please tell us of one conspiracy theory (bombs in towers, planted plane parts at Pentagon, etc) that you believe, and can you tell us what evidence could be presented to you that would make you change your mind.

A theory that is becoming increasingly more popular, was actually one of the original theories within days or weeks of the attacks, is that of the historical involvement of covert US agencies with Osama Bin Laden. The short synopsis of the theory is: "Osama was directed by a covert agency to attack NYC and DC as the pretext to begin the beating of war drums. The fanaticism of the participants resulted in an attack of larger magnitude than expected."

If we could see FOIA documents officially severing the ties with Bin Laden forged during the Soviet/Afghan conflict, the magnitude of the relationship-severing in those documents might sway that theory. I know of at least one person on such a search.

 

[Mr.Herbert]

These uncorroborated reports of power downs and bomb sniffing dogs were proven false. So your right, talking about any demolition theory whould be considered a waste of time.

 

[FramerDave]

If you're looking for a specific 9/11-conspiracy related example, it might take some time to dig it up.

Thanks, I'd appreciate it. I'll check back.

 

[T.A.M.]

I don't hold to that theory, and have never created anything (I can remember) that supported pre-planted explosives in the WTC. I've often speculated that the scenario of limited high-energy charges planted to weaken the core is the most plausible offshoot of the demolition theories, but I've not seen any material that support the idea of a crew of people spending enough pre-attack time in the building to accomplish even that task.

There's a multitude of various demolition theories that involve the need for teams of people to be doing "something" to the buildings. Since we have only a small handful of uncorroborated reports of "something" happening during the prior weekend, I don't think it's worthy of wasting any more time.

However, lots of people with credible backgrounds continue to look deep into this issue. It's worth looking into as long as wild speculation isn't presented as certainty.

Welcome back.

I agree that investigating anything that has some degree of uncertainty is valid. I also agree that speculation presented as certainty is a no-no. I would add, and this is important wrt the truth movement, that UNFOUNDED accusations of such horrible crimes is not only poor form, but is despicable, and as a result, I consider those who do so to be contemptible.

TAM

 

[Drudgewire]

However, lots of people with credible backgrounds continue to look deep into this issue. It's worth looking into as long as wild speculation isn't presented as certainty.

Six years, and not one of these folks with credible backgrounds has submitted so much as one paper which has withstood peer review.

It should tell you something, and that something shouldn't be "everyone else is in on it."

 

[MikeW]

If we could see FOIA documents officially severing the ties with Bin Laden forged during the Soviet/Afghan conflict, the magnitude of the relationship-severing in those documents might sway that theory. I know of at least one person on such a search.

It might be wise to start by locating documents establishing such ties, I suspect.

 

[beachnut]

There's a multitude of various demolition theories ...

However, lots of people with credible backgrounds continue to look deep into this issue. It's worth looking into as long as wild speculation isn't presented as certainty.

Yes, and these idiots fall into people being insane, bias political bs, dumb as dirt, liars, $$$, and just fools who believe anything.

There are not lots of credible (background) people who have looked deep into CD. There a few nuts or liars.

Still no support or facts for your government stuff.

 

[SkepticGuy]

locating documents establishing such ties, I suspect.

This is a widely available piece of information that has been covered exhaustively, including at least two pieces on 60 Minutes... one in the 80's, and another after Bill Clinton failed to capture him.

 

[Gravy]

If, like one poster here, you assume all conspiracy research and speculation is a mere contrivance, you're ignoring what history has proven -- there have been "conspiracies" that have been covered up. For example, right now we're converting Clifford Stone's vast archive of FOIA documents... some of which provide overviews of the analysis of captured space vessels of extraterrestrial origin. We're making sure we get this up in a way that maintains a "chain of evidence."

Um, exactly what evidence do you have that there have been "captured space vessels of extraterrestrial origin?"

Let me guess: none. Am I right, or can we expect this earth-shaking information to be revealed soon?

 

[MikeW]

This is a widely available piece of information that has been covered exhaustively, including at least two pieces on 60 Minutes... one in the 80's, and another after Bill Clinton failed to capture him.

Including US Government documents establishing a relationship between bin Laden and a US covert agency?

 

[Gravy]

If we could see FOIA documents officially severing the ties with Bin Laden forged during the Soviet/Afghan conflict, the magnitude of the relationship-severing in those documents might sway that theory. I know of at least one person on such a search.

What ties? I'm not aware of anyone who has demonstrated that the ties you posit ever existed, are you? If not, I submit that a search for the severance of those ties is premature and will be fruitless.

Edit: ah, I see you discuss that in post 193. Links to transcripts, etc. would be appreciated. You're talking about information that people like me and others, who've read many articles, as well as books like The Looming Towers and Perfect Soldiers, have not encountered. This is quite a surprise. Please help us out.

 

[SkepticGuy]

Um, exactly what evidence do you have that there have been "captured space vessels of extraterrestrial origin?"

Declassified documents compiled by Clifford Stone. He's provided us with the rights to covert to PDF (some already are) and distribute them online. There are a collection of documents that detail the research team reports on such a project. We need to make sure we have all related documents on the actual project so that when released, it tells the entire story.

 

[beachnut]

oops, now SG has let it out of the bag...

Declassified documents compiled by Clifford Stone. He's provided us with the rights to covert to PDF (some already are) and distribute them online. There are a collection of documents that detail the research team reports on such a project. We need to make sure we have all related documents on the actual project so that when released, it tells the entire story.

OMG, we have SCI TOP DOG alert. Redog 71, I say again we have a SILLYPOST, top secret super alert. Darn, how did you let this leak out?

You must need some traffic to sell ads for money. Sad.

I have to say you have lived up to the title of the OP "Hello JREF, I bring you "Tin Foil"! " Finally!

 

[SkepticGuy]

What ties? I'm not aware of anyone who has demonstrated that the ties you posit ever existed

One of the more commonly referenced sources of the connection is this book, the author's website here

 

[Gravy]

Declassified documents compiled by Clifford Stone. He's provided us with the rights to covert to PDF (some already are) and distribute them online. There are a collection of documents that detail the research team reports on such a project. We need to make sure we have all related documents on the actual project so that when released, it tells the entire story.

This is arguably the most important discovery in history! I'm sure that others here will join me in celebrating your fame and fortune once this astonishing evidence is released. I hope you're prepared to be one of the most famous people to ever walk the Earth!