What is good about religion?

articulett said:
The Amish get ALL their education from the bible... and still believe the earth is flat. The only songs they are allowed to sing are hymns... the only literature is the bible. Brainwashing for god.
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Completely untrue. They go to school through the 8th grade, where they are outstanding students. They are voracious readers of many types of literature for the most part. Virtually all in this area subscribe to a half dozen magazines. National Geographic, Readers' Digest and Time are popular. One man that I know well is a big Tom Clancy fan. They almost all own encyclopedias, and a common gift among them is a set of history books.

I've been in their homes when they had "sings" where they most often play harmonicas for accompaniment and sing many old songs, in English for the most part, NONE of which were religious in nature.
 
Freethinker said:
Completely untrue. They go to school through the 8th grade, where they are outstanding students. They are voracious readers of many types of literature for the most part. Virtually all in this area subscribe to a half dozen magazines. National Geographic, Readers' Digest and Time are popular. One man that I know well is a big Tom Clancy fan. They almost all own encyclopedias, and a common gift among them is a set of history books.

I've been in their homes when they had "sings" where they most often play harmonicas for accompaniment and sing many old songs, in English for the most part, NONE of which were religious in nature.
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Really? Maybe I'm confusing them with Mennonites... or maybe you are... or maybe things have changed. I knew a woman who grew up in the Amish Community... at least I'm pretty sure that's what it was... and her community focused their entire lives around the bible. Any literature or singing outside religious literature or hymns was forbidden, and they believed the earth was flat and the center of the universe. She was Pennsylvania Amish, I think. Lancaster County. Tell me more about the Amish you know. Are they allowed to use the internet at school? Watch videos? Do you know any female Amish people?

And yes, shadron... I was one of THOSE kids... we were always being yelled at not to muss your desks... they were just our to "borrow" for the evening. And the Catholic kids had those cool desks that openend on the top... we just had the kind with the bin underneath...
 
Freethinker said:
Completely untrue. They go to school through the 8th grade, where they are outstanding students. They are voracious readers of many types of literature for the most part. Virtually all in this area subscribe to a half dozen magazines. National Geographic, Readers' Digest and Time are popular. One man that I know well is a big Tom Clancy fan. They almost all own encyclopedias, and a common gift among them is a set of history books.

I've been in their homes when they had "sings" where they most often play harmonicas for accompaniment and sing many old songs, in English for the most part, NONE of which were religious in nature.
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Having lived among Amish communities, I think you must be confused. (Or were around some very un-Amish like Amish people)

ETA: articulett's description is largely accurate. Amish and Mennonites are the same people.
 
Apology said:
It comes to my attention that Hilary Clinton is also a Methodist:

http://www.adherents.com/adh_congress.html

So if you want to continue calling Bush a fundie, you'll have to call Bill and Hilary Clinton fundies too [qimg]http://e.photos.cx/emot-laugh-b98.gif[/qimg]

Also, she is a United Methodist just like George Bush, according to her wiki, so it's no good claiming that Bush is some sort of more conservative form of Methodist than Hilary Clinton.

I don't see anyone trying to claim that the fundies voted in Clinton. By all means though, please tell everyone that Hilary is a fundie too; I'm hoping the fundies will believe you and use their superior voting power to vote in Hilary next election [qimg]http://e.photos.cx/emot-laugh-b98.gif[/qimg]

We simply don't need George Bush to be a fundamentalist to show that he's a bad president. His record speaks for itself.
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Give us a break, AP. One's declared denomination is hardly the way one identifies a fundie.
 
JetLeg said:
You are saying that you understand the psychology of these people better than they themselves do.
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When it comes to a Christian's belief their morality comes from their religious beliefs, I'll say that. Because I can go to that religious text and point out that it does not say what they believe it says.
 
JetLeg said:
By my definition we cannot be sure who are the true christians, but we can and need to do our best to find out.
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Why? Because the others are Satan's Minions in disguise?

The fact Christians are all over the board on their interpretations of the Bible and their god's will is strong evidence there is no underlying truth to the religion. If there were some underlying basis, why would it be so nebulous?
 
skeptigirl said:
Give us a break, AP. One's declared denomination is hardly the way one identifies a fundie.
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You can SPECULATE all you want, but you can't prove it. As far as we can prove, George Bush's faith is no more fundamentalist than Hilary Clinton's.

I'd like to suggest that Bush's election had nothing to do with the issue of religion. People were annoyed with Democrats after Clinton's little Lewinsky stunt, so they managed to barely vote Bush in. The attitude at the time was "Throw the bums out." In the next election, people were frightened about 9/11 and Bush seemed to be doing a good job handling it, so they voted for him again. My personal votes against Bush in both elections had nothing to do with thinking he was a fundamentalist Christian. It had everything to do with thinking that his policies and campaign platforms were wrong.

It's also interesting to note that Pat Robertson, a hardcore fundamentalist, said that he believed that some of the votes that he got in Florida were meant for Al Gore (their names were side-by-side on the ballot). Pat the Fundie stood up for Gore and said that he should have been elected. That's telling, in that Bush's politics seem to represent Robertson's morals more closely than Gore's did. Pat Robertson could have kept his mouth shut and just let Bush be elected without adding to the controversy.

I remember it clearly because I had always hated Pat Robertson and was astonished that he was being so fair about things. Even though I disagree with Robertson on nearly everything I have a little more respect for him now, and can't say I "hate" him any more.
 
Apology said:
You can SPECULATE all you want, but you can't prove it. As far as we can prove, George Bush's faith is no more fundamentalist than Hilary Clinton's. ...
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Only if you ignore all the evidence. How is it you missed the last 6 years where Bush has displayed his fundamentalism in countless demonstrations from installing Evangelicals to every appointed post including some NASA 'minders' who warned NASA speakers not to mention the Big Bang in public unless they made it clear it was only "a theory" and the Bible's Creation story was equally as likely. Bush had a "faith based" web page added to every single government branch he oversees including this jewel in the Dept of Homeland Security
The Center for Faith-based and Community Initiatives (CFBCI) at the Department of Homeland Security was established on March 27, 2006. The CFBCI will coordinate Department’s efforts to eliminate regulatory, contracting and other programmatic obstacles to the participation of faith-based and community organizations in the Department’s social and community service programs.
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Then there is this one from the US Small Business Administration
SBA’s Center for Faith-Based and Community Initiatives seeks to empower faith-based and other community organizations to apply for federal social service grants.
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You can find those and 9 more on the White House Faith-Based And Community Initiatives page. These are not "Community Initiatives". That was simply tacked on to cover the violation of the Establishment Clause in the Constitution.

Try this column for a few examples of Bush's fundamentalism.
In the unfolding of history, God calls on special persons to make history in His righteous name. In a worldview that rests upon providence, the attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon are interpreted by many, including members of the Bush administration, as signs from God that Bush is ordained to lead a crusade against evil. “It is a theme which is beginning to emerge from the Bush administration,” writes Julian Borger in The Guardian (1-28-03). “While most people saw the extraordinary circumstances of the 2000 election as a fluke, Bush and his closest supporters saw it as yet another sign he was chosen to lead. Later, September 11 ‘revealed’ what he was there for.” The President said in the State of the Union address, “this call of history has come to the right country.” And, obviously to the right president.
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You might conclude it is all an act set up by the clever Karl Rove to get votes. I think that is a real stretch. Bush believing the religious garbage he touts is much more likely an explanation.
 
As to the Evangelicals electing Bush, they merely tip the center. Rove has made a clear success getting voters out for trivial issues that are big deals for the Evangelicals, and for a few other single minded groups.

Flag Burning Amendment, Gay rights, and right to lifer's issues are some examples. Those are just campaign tactics that tip the balance when things are otherwise a close race. But the Evangelicals do have a well oiled machine. Bush paid millions in those "Faith Based" grants which conveniently went to large congregations the pastors then urged members to vote for Bush. And they just go around the law against preaching who to vote for by disguising the recommendation as an issue. For example claiming Kerry should be denied Communion was one way to suggest a vote for Bush was 'God's' will. I posted all the sources describing this clever means of using our tax dollars to bribe voters. You'd think most Republicans would be angry at that sort of thing but instead they are in denial like you are here.
 
skeptigirl said:
As to the Evangelicals electing Bush, they merely tip the center. Rove has made a clear success getting voters out for trivial issues that are big deals for the Evangelicals, and for a few other single minded groups.

Flag Burning Amendment, Gay rights, and right to lifer's issues are some examples. Those are just campaign tactics that tip the balance when things are otherwise a close race. But the Evangelicals do have a well oiled machine. Bush paid millions in those "Faith Based" grants which conveniently went to large congregations the pastors then urged members to vote for Bush. And they just go around the law against preaching who to vote for by disguising the recommendation as an issue. For example claiming Kerry should be denied Communion was one way to suggest a vote for Bush was 'God's' will. I posted all the sources describing this clever means of using our tax dollars to bribe voters. You'd think most Republicans would be angry at that sort of thing but instead they are in denial like you are here.
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I'm not in denial about anything. I've said many times I don't like Bush and I didn't vote for him. I think you're giving Christians too much credit. They simply don't have that much power. If they did, Pat Robertson would be President.

Conservative laws that have been passed aren't proof of Bush's politics. He doesn't get to make up laws on his own. They don't get passed simply because he supports them. If you'd like to say that there are evangelical Christian elements in Congress, go ahead. I'll agree with that. You will also note that there is no Flag Burning Amendment, no national Anti-Gay Marriage Law, and abortions are still legal. If Fundamentalist Christians really had that much power in this country, these battles would not have been lost, and abortion would be illegal, gay marriage banned on a national level, and flag burning prohibited by the Constitution. It concerns me that people are willing to believe that Fundamentalists have that much power. When you say it, they believe you, and they take credit for things like getting Bush elected. They did not get George Bush elected. Non-fundies voted for Bush too, or he would not be President.

The United Methodist Church is not a fundamentalist church. George W. Bush is a member of the United Methodist Church.
 
Well I don't know if it's good or not but religion gives alot of people on this forum alot to talk about ;p


Plus if people that were religious begin to question their core beliefs, it's a pretty good chance they will question everything else after. I consider that a plus.
 
Oroborus said:
Well I don't know if it's good or not but religion gives alot of people on this forum alot to talk about ;p


Plus if people that were religious begin to question their core beliefs, it's a pretty good chance they will question everything else after. I consider that a plus.
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I agree... it's like Santa... people start to think... "hey, if the people I trust were lying about that, then what else have they been lying to me about..."
 
skeptigirl said:
I'm close to saying 'all' religion is bad as well. Any believer bases at least some of his/her beliefs about the world on myths. That isn't a good thing.
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I'm not sure what you mean by "all" (with the quotes), but for those who missed it or have forgotten, not all religions require myths and/or faith.
 
articulett said:
I agree... it's like Santa... people start to think... "hey, if the people I trust were lying about that, then what else have they been lying to me about..."
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This goes along the same lines that I have been thinking about lately. My wife is very adamant about teaching our 2 year old son about Santa. So I have been thinking that when he inevitably does ask me about religion, I can say, "remember when you believed in Santa.....?" and use it as a chance to discuss critical thinking.

As far as the OP, I said I would get back to the thread if I could think of anything else to add to the list of what is good about religion discussed in the video. I don't know if this has been mentioned but what about all those stories about people who were hooked on drugs and/or alcohol and now are off it supposedly thanks to their new found religion? I hate to say anything that sounds elitist, but is religion so hard wired to our evolutionary history that there are just some people who just need magical thinking to get through their day? Again, I hope I am wrong about this but I am not sure about what the evidence says.
 
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