AA77 FDR Data, Explained

[boloboffin]

Hey, but you seem to be finding your way around all right...

 

[LashL]

Heya bolo!
Finally found my way over. This place is huge
Sid

Hey! Great to see you here, Sid. Welcome

ETA: There has been a recent influx of troofers here who appear to be bound and bent on making this sub-forum look bad by burying some of the amazing and substantive threads with a bunch of crap, but don't be dissuaded by that ~ the substance is easy to find.

 

[beachnut]

I'm not following this. There are no other numbers under the 238 reading for pressure altitude. Wouldn't that be last paired with last?

In the film, Carl (Snowygrouch) is not even concerned with pressure alt. He only quotes radio alt.

Bonus: The roll and pitch angle (sorry, no correlation with counter that I can see, but this is the last bit of recorded data) from the "decoded" FDR raw data.



The ND stands for blank fields in both of these columns. By my guess that means that data wasn't in the buffer to be recorded - and there's no telling if that last data bit is the same frame as the last alt readings.

But look at that roll. That's consistent with the right wing rising to avoid the transformer, right?

Positive is right wing down. Look at the turn, the big turn form 7000 feet down to 2000 feet is a turn, right turn.

I think the plane is about 3000 feet away still doing what the people on the ground said it was doing. Wings moving back and forth.

The final left bank would be negative.

 

[boloboffin]

Positive is right wing down. Look at the turn, the big turn form 7000 feet down to 2000 feet is a turn, right turn.

I think the plane is about 3000 feet away still doing what the people on the ground said it was doing. Wings moving back and forth.

The final left bank would be negative.

Ah. So the final data in the FDR doesn't even begin to show the final left bank. Thanks for that.

Man, good times over at DU's 9/11 forum. Rob showed up for a while and started in on that testy act he does so well. We even got Carl (SG) to post once. And just now someone finally posted a link to a DU thread where woody box had FIVE witnesses that reported a flyover. Well, not quite. These were people who thought the smoke was rising from the 14th St Bridge or somewhere else on the other side of the Pentagon. And right in that thread was the postings of Albert Hemphill, who quite simply saw the plane hit the building.

You have to love these self-debunking CT advocates.

 

[SidDithers]

...

 

[SidDithers]

Hey! Great to see you here, Sid. Welcome

ETA: There has been a recent influx of troofers here who appear to be bound and bent on making this sub-forum look bad by burying some of the amazing and substantive threads with a bunch of crap, but don't be dissuaded by that ~ the substance is easy to find.

Thanks for the welcome! I'm looking forward to participating once I've got the lay of the land

Cheers.

Sid

 

[MarcoPolo]

Great to be here!

First off, I'm glad I found this place. What I'm upset about is that all you NWO folks were keeping it from me for so long. How did you do that?

But to the meat of my post.

I run my own forum and someone claiming to be from Pilots for Truth came in and posted this comment regarding this thread:

The JREF Forum deleted the above reply to their thread. They only want people to see what they want you to see.

If anyone has any further questions, feel free to email us at pilots(at)pilotsfor911truth(dot)org.

He posted what appear to be a bunch of links to the Pilots for Truth forum discussing the following claims, which were apparently made in this thread:

Claim - There are No pilots at pilotsfor911truth.org

Claim - The FDR is missing 2-6 seconds of data

Claim - There is altimeter lag in the animation and csv file due to flying outside the aircraft envelope.

Claim - The Information that P4T has analyzed may not be from the NTSB (P4T may have fabricated the information and claims it came from the NTSB)

Claim - The csv file and animation show a heading along the official flight path.

Claim -
The Flight Data Recorder was found in the Pentagon. How can it be too high?

He posted a bunch of links and I'd like to give you the link to the post in question, but I don't want anyone to think I'm trying to get a cheap link back to my forum.

Do you know what post this is and if not, can I provide you with the link to the post on my forum?

Thanks!
David

 

[uk_dave]

Do you know what post this is and if not, can I provide you with the link to the post on my forum?

Thanks!
David

Of course you can. We can never have too many Davids in the NWO....I mean, JREF.

 

[apathoid]

Welcome David. We've seen it before, Rob has an armada of messengers he sends here to keep us informed of his newest BS. I don't believe I've addressed the claims, so I'll do it briefly now.

Claim - There are No pilots at pilotsfor911truth.org

Strawman.

Claim - The FDR is missing 2-6 seconds of data

PfT's own decode of the data supports this claim. The final lat/long - or - heading/DME combination puts AA77 anywhere from 0.5 miles to 1.2 miles from impact, or 3 to 7 seconds.

Claim - There is altimeter lag in the animation and csv file due to flying outside the aircraft envelope.

PfT's own decode shows that the altimeter is lagging when you compare pressure altitude with the radio altitide. At the end of the recorded data the radalt is 273' while the (corrected)pressure altitude is 485'.

Incedentally, AA77 was descending at around 60' per second in the final several frames. The 273' of altitude in the final data frame put's the airplane around 4 seconds out. See #2.

Claim - The Information that P4T has analyzed may not be from the NTSB (P4T may have fabricated the information and claims it came from the NTSB)

Strawman.

Claim - The csv file and animation show a heading along the official flight path.

False. We maintain that the CSV released by the NTSB as well as PfTs very own decode of the data - indicate a true track of 61 degrees and a magnetic heading of 70 degrees. When corrected for wind drift, these values agree very well with each other.

You can see this yourself rather easily if you have Photoshop. Open Google earth, position the eyepoint at about 2000', click the "N" button which orients the map to true north. Take a screencap, open with Photoshop, and rotate the canvas 61 degrees and draw a line straight up and down the image centered over the impact point. The resultant flightpath agrees perfectly with the "official" flightpath.

The animation flight path was off 21 degrees. Since magnetic variation in the area is 10.5 degrees, its safe to assume that, in the working copy given to PfT, the NTSB simply rotated the floor map the wrong direction.

Claim -
The Flight Data Recorder was found in the Pentagon. How can it be too high?

It was found at the Pentagon. But assuming it was all faked, why would the perps fake the data to show an aircraft several hundred feet too high? They wouldn't.

It's also worth noting that the (hundred +)eyewitness accounts of the impact suggested an aircraft which was extremely low just before impact. Even the PentaCons star witnesses suggest this very low flightpath. Noone saw an aircraft between 300-500'.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Of course you can. We can never have too many Davids in the NWO....I mean, JREF.

Ok, here's the thread.

debatenation(dot)com/forums/showthread.php?t=119

 

[MarcoPolo]

In the thread in question, he provided a bunch of links to the PFT forums that you apparently have to be registered to view. I haven't gone through the trouble of registering yet.

 

[uk_dave]

http://www.debatenation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119

done

 

[apathoid]

In the thread in question, he provided a bunch of links to the PFT forums that you apparently have to be registered to view. I haven't gone through the trouble of registering yet.

Don't bother. If you don't toe the company line, they'll brand you a government loyalist, summarily ban you, and possibly call for your execution(not joking).

It's possibly the most censored forum in the history of the internet.

 

[jaydeehess]

In the thread in question, he provided a bunch of links to the PFT forums that you apparently have to be registered to view. I haven't gone through the trouble of registering yet.

Of course its that way. Rob Balsamo is basically a coward who only wants those who will view him on a high pedastal to be able to view his entire forum. My Gawd, do you know what would happen if he allowed everyone to see what his posters write in threads in which he actually alows non-fans of his to post? The publicly viewable forum threads are bad enough.


To my knowledge none of any of Balsamo's posts with any relevent content were removed. Some may have been moved to other sub-forums and others may have been removed or eduted for breech of forum rules. It is odd that he would complain about it since, as was said above, his forum is likely one of the most censored forums on the internet.

 

[beachnut]

In the thread in question, he provided a bunch of links to the PFT forums that you apparently have to be registered to view. I haven't gone through the trouble of registering yet.

Then you will be able to see the group think of false information. They have to agree to post, and are banned when you start to use your brain. They boast of members to the forum as some sign of greatness, they do not understand 90 percent just were interested in seeing mental illness in action. You do not have to post.

On TV we had the soupNazi, at p4tf we have the truthNazi. no truth for you! Rob, the p4t chief censorNazi.

 

[Anti-sophist]

This list of supposed "claims" of ours isn't even accurate, let alone comprehensive. Most importantly, this dopey attempt at a comprehensive rebuttal has missed the vast majority of our most important points. Their attempted rebuttal is as poorly organized and researched as their AA77 claims.

Claim - There are No pilots at pilotsfor911truth.org
Claim - The Information that P4T has analyzed may not be from the NTSB (P4T may have fabricated the information and claims it came from the NTSB)

These are outright lies. We are fully aware of the organization and its members. Furthermore, while I'm not going to vouch for the authenticity of any of their materials, I have seen absolutely no evidence nor any reason to believe they've fabricated anything.

Claim - There is altimeter lag in the animation and csv file due to flying outside the aircraft envelope.

The implication here is that the altimeter is, in fact, lagging. I don't know of anyone who has asserted that that speed/pressure is the reason as much as we've asserted the likelihood of that explanation.

Claim - The csv file and animation show a heading along the official flight path.

This is half right and half wrong. The CSV file does show a correct heading.

Nowhere have we ever claimed the animation is right. This is another outright lie, especially considering we claim the exact opposite. It is very clear that the animation is in disagreement with both the CSV file and reality in regards to the track of the aircraft. The likely cause of this error has already been isolated.

Claim - The FDR is missing 2-6 seconds of data

This is clearly an issue I need to revisit because numerous people have messaged me over various comments and factoids and I've kept putting it off and saying I'd get around to it eventually. I will.. eventually.

----

Most importantly, if that poster believes the above is a fair characterization of the criticisms of his organization and it's "research", he's severely missed the point. By and large this thread (and a small handful of others) has systematically dismantled every claim pilotsfor911truth has ever made. My original post was meant to derail a very specific subset of their analysis based on their misunderstand of the FDR and it grew way beyond that over the months to a systematic debunking of everything they had to say, especially when taken with the small other handful of really substantiative threads. I do not know a single pfT claim that hasn't been conclusively debunked somewhere... the problem is we have no central repository of that knowledge.

 

[Anti-sophist]

I clicked on that link. I've seen that exact same post copied and pasted all over the internet. It's simply a proof by overwhelming gibberish. The more links the better, no matter how off-topic, tangentially related, poorly interpreted, or fundamentally flawed it may be.

Every single one of their claims has been systematically and thoroughly demolished from start to finish. The problem is it takes us several pages of talking about and fixing each other's mistakes to finally work out all the details of exactly how wrong they are.

Our threads slowly die away, and they repeat the same tired nonsense. Over and over.

It's the power of copy&paste and proof by exhausting your opponents. They aren't interested in who is right and wrong. They are interested in repeating their same tired tripe over and over until we get tired of repeating the answers. They've pretty much "won" in that respect... we are sick of repeating ourselves. They've had nothing new to say for months, and everything old they've said has been demolished more times then I can count. The main reason we aren't putting up much of a fight any more is because they've basically dropped to the fringe of the truth movement.

 

[BeAChooser]

Claim - There are No pilots at pilotsfor911truth.org

Well I haven't been here long enough myself to tell you what has been "claimed" here regarding pilotsfor911truth, but I can tell you that very few *qualified* pilots have joined that organization. They show a total of 41 members (which in itself shows how slowly their organization is growing since several months ago the total was 25) of which (according to them) 20 are pilots/aviation professionals. That's rather small when you consider just how many commercial and non-commercial pilots there are in this country alone. The FAA estimates there are over 600,000 active pilots in the US. That includes over 130,000 commercial pilots and another 140,000 airline transport pilots. And only 20 have joined? Now ask yourself why that is ...

 

[Anti-sophist]

MarcoPolo,

The poster you are dealing with is Rob Balasmo aka JohnDoeX aka JDX. He is the "head" of pilots for 911 truth. The posts are his copy/pasting to you are his own that he has pasted all over the internet in an attempt to get more attention. It may seem like he is quoting other people, but he's not. It's him. It's all him. Please do not be fooled that this is some professional operation and you are dealing with some member with varied resources and expertise at his disposal. It's a single very disturbed individual.

You aren't the first person to be hit with this copy&paste gibberish and you won't be the last. This man is a habitual liar and a coward and he -will- draw you into the longest and most pointless debate rife with logical fallacy, scientific incompetence, and threats of physical harm. He doesn't care about debate and I'm fairly certain that all he wants is attention to sell DVDs. That's only explanation for why he has continued to repeat the same tired lies, bouncing from website to website. His only goal is self-promotion.

All of the lies in these posts have been posted and reposted numerous times and debunked systematically and repeatedly. Of that, I can assure you.

Your best bet is to ignore him and hope he goes away. Publish a link to this thread and if anyone has any further questions to come here and ask us directly. If there is any particular claim of his that you want debunked, let us know, and we'll look up the older posts detailing such. We've been over these same claims so many times that it's become a waste of time, to be honest. I'm tempted to put together a FAQ just for JDX but frankly he's not that important with his one-man-show for attention.

If I can be of additional service, let me know.

 

[furrod]

Oh man!
I read the entire freakin’ thread, watched as Anti-sophist systematically took-down UnderTow (sounds like I’m describing professional wrestling), and then when it looked like there was little else to add to the subject, Snowygrouch shows up with a compelling plot twist. I get to the end of the thread, looking for a satisfactory conclusion and ….nothing! Argh!

1. Did Snowygrouch ever complete his analysis of the raw data?
2. If so, did it match up with what Anti-sophist was saying?
3. If not, is there an explanation?
4. Did the raw data ever get shared and the original analysis duplicated?
5. I think the P4T guys still hold that the NTSB info does not match up to the “official story”. Is this because of Snowygrouch’s work with the raw FDR data or are they falling back on their erroneous CSV analysis?

Sorry if some of these questions have been answered, here or elsewhere. After reading this thread, my eyes hurt and I’m not entirely sure I am any wiser than when I started.