perhaps not everything is lost for astrology

[-Fran-]

Why don't woosters hybridize more often?

You could double check your winning lottery numbers through multiple 'disciplines'.

astrology and numerology should team up.
Pick the time of birth; chose the name; cover all the bases.

Or, is there a competitive thing with woosters? Like, if you believe in alien crop circle production, you don't get to also believe in astrology?

is that how it works?

It doesn't seem that way to me. Most woos seem to have a whole range of woo they belive in. I think there is also a not too rare breed of all-around-woos who believe in absolutely all kinds of woo imaginable, even when the different kinds of woo totally contradict each other. Though many seem to start to obsess about just one particular thing, yes.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Oooooh! Oooohh! Pick me! Pick me!

Something important happened to the older child when s/he was about 2 and a half- maybe a younger sibling was born, or something to that effect......

Wow, that's amazing! And I didn't even give you the dates of birth!

But I would call i a miss. He was much closer to 3 than 2 1/2 when his brother was born.

 

[Cuddles]

But I would call i a miss. He was much closer to 3 than 2 1/2 when his brother was born.

I think he was just using a different calendar.

 

[Garrette]

I think he was just using a different calendar.

No. This is what happens when the birth times are not given precisely. Adriana was right.

 

[Aquila]

Although astrologers do not claim that astrology is an empirical science, and will probably never find a cause and effect mechanism, there have been some predictions in the past few years which might even convince skeptics that there is a correlation between the above and the below.

The first one that I can remember was reading, about a month before the 2000 U.S. election, a prediction by astrologer Kim Rogers Gallaher in the magazine American Astrology. Gallaher predicted that, due to the phenomenon known as Mercury retrograde on election day, the results of the election could be subject to a recall. As we all know, that election has now become infamous because of the "hanging chad" problem.

The second case was the wide speculation amongst many astrologers, published in astrology magazines during 2000 and 2001, that the Saturn-Pluto oppostion of 2001 would result in a very harsh climax on earth when it became exact. On September 11, 2001, the Saturn-Pluto oppostion was 2 degrees from being exact, and was "triggered" by the Moon in Gemini on that day. The opposition was in the signs Gemini (Saturn) and Sagittarius (Pluto).

Skeptics are justified in stating that predictions like this are vague, but in my opinion they do show at least some correlation between heavenly phenomena and events on earth.

Incidentally, Pluto is right now in the final degrees of Sagittarius, a sign relating to religion. Astrologers believe that the first and final degrees of a sign are where the energy is most intense, and therefore predict that the fundamentalist religious views of the past 14 years or so have now reached a natural climax and the focus of energy from Pluto will change when it moves into Capricorn early in 2008. Since Capricorn is a Saturn-ruled sign, and Saturn represents the matierial world of the senses, the focus of human energy is speculated to become very intense (Pluto) in the area of the physical sciences. Since Pluto rules transformation and rebirth, the speculation would include a complete overhaul of much of the earth's infrastucture - for example rebuilding bridges and roads. Let's see.

 

[Aquila]

Just another thought: Perhaps one of the most important ways we might see the correlation of Pluto in Capricorn to possible events on earth is by observing what happens in America, which is a Cancerian country (July 4, 1776). Pluto also rules money, taxes and investments. Cancer rules home, houses (Moon ruled) and Capricorn rules the organized hierarchy of human life such as corporations and banks. The opposition suggests a battle of some sort. Cancer rules food, nourishment, nurturing and Capricorn again represents the organized hierarchy of business, some would even say Capitalism. More hard sellng of junkfood, pharmaceuticals and material things which we don't really need but which support the economy.

 

[ben m]

about a month before the 2000 U.S. election, a prediction by astrologer Kim Rogers Gallaher in the magazine American Astrology. Gallaher predicted that, due to the phenomenon known as Mercury retrograde on election day, the results of the election could be subject to a recall.

"I think that gamblers have an ability to predict roulette balls and cards. Just the other day I was at the casino, and a man named John Smith put $50 down on the number 22, and *he won*. The odds were 40-to-one against him. Then there's the famous poker game where Wild Bill Hickock was dealt a straight, but broke it up to draw a card---getting a straight flush. It's not proof but it makes you think something other than chance is involved."

Do you understand why this isn't a good argument for the power of Roulette Prediction? Do you understand why your argument doesn't convince anyone of the merits of astrology? No one cares about the number of "hits"; any random guesser will have "hits" to boast of. The difference between a guesser and a predictor is the ratio of hits to misses.

 

[sthomson]

Although astrologers do not claim that astrology is an empirical science, and will probably never find a cause and effect mechanism, there have been some predictions in the past few years which might even convince skeptics that there is a correlation between the above and the below.

The first one that I can remember was reading, about a month before the 2000 U.S. election, a prediction by astrologer Kim Rogers Gallaher in the magazine American Astrology. Gallaher predicted that, due to the phenomenon known as Mercury retrograde on election day, the results of the election could be subject to a recall. As we all know, that election has now become infamous because of the "hanging chad" problem.

I'm a member of a football "pick-em" league. This means that every week, I pick the winners of American NFL football games - there are 13-16 games per week. In my first week, I picked all 16 games correctly - and 4 or 5 of those games were "upsets"!

So does this mean I'm a psychic? No - it means that with a small enough sample size (IE, a sample size of one), it's possible to determine anything. You can point out that Gallagher "predicted a recall", but what about all the other things she failed to predict? What about all the astrologers who didn't predict that there would be election problems?

The second case was the wide speculation amongst many astrologers, published in astrology magazines during 2000 and 2001, that the Saturn-Pluto oppostion of 2001 would result in a very harsh climax on earth when it became exact. On September 11, 2001, the Saturn-Pluto oppostion was 2 degrees from being exact...

...so, the astrologers were wrong, then? I assume that 2 degrees are very important in astrology, since birth times are supposedly of the utmost importance when developing a chart.

Skeptics are justified in stating that predictions like this are vague, but in my opinion they do show at least some correlation between heavenly phenomena and events on earth.

I don't think you know what the word "correlation" means. If someone could present data showing a positive correlation between birth date and future career (or whatever), then they would surely win the MDC.

 

[Cello Man]

Skeptics are justified in stating that predictions like this are vague, but in my opinion they do show at least some correlation between heavenly phenomena and events on earth.

Repeat after me: "Correlation is not causation."

Pluto also rules money, taxes and investments. Cancer rules home, houses (Moon ruled) and Capricorn rules the organized hierarchy of human life such as corporations and banks. The opposition suggests a battle of some sort. Cancer rules food, nourishment, nurturing and Capricorn again represents the organized hierarchy of business, some would even say Capitalism.

Evidence?

 

[Alice Shortcake]

Aquila, what did Capricorn rule in the days before corporations and banks existed? What did it represent in the feudal era, the Roman Empire and the Stone Age?

Does the fact that Pluto is no longer classified as a planet make any difference to its astrological role?

Has it occurred to you that the only reason there seems to be "a battle of some sort" between Cancer and Capricorn is because human beings have quite arbitrarily assigned different characteristics to different signs of the Zodiac?

 

[charlie1]

You think its a joke about parents scheduling c-sections/inductions of labor on the days that are most "favorable" for their childrens horoscopes...but I see it at work ALL THE TIME! And I cringe everytime.

 

[Madalch]

Wow, that's amazing! And I didn't even give you the dates of birth!

But I would call i a miss. He was much closer to 3 than 2 1/2 when his brother was born.

Hey! The other astrologer gets to say, "19, 20, 21?", and you're claiming I'm wrong because I'm off by a few months when I use the phrase "about 2 and a half"? I'd say I've given myself at least 6 months either way, there, so I claim a hit.

 

[ravdin]

AGAIN: WHAT DO YOU WANT TO KNOW? AH, I WAS FORGETTING ABOUT THIS: I FIRST FOUND YOU BECAUSE I WAS LOOKING FOR DATA OF SERIAL CRIMINALS AS PART OF MY RESEARCH. I SAW AN ENORMOUS LIST OF DATES, THE PROBLEM IS YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE DAY, MONTH, YEAR, PLACE AND TIME OF BIRTH TO BE ABLE TO DETERMINE WHAT MADE THAT PERSON A KILLER. AREN'T YOU ASKED A WHOLE BUNCH OF QUESTION BEFORE YOUR DOCTOR UNDERSTANDS WHAT HAPPENS WITH YOU?

So what you're saying is that you can predict based on the time and place of one's birth that they might become a serial killer?

I must say that the ramifications are extraordinary. For example, you could identify potential serial killers in our midst by pinpointing the most dangerous confluences of times/places of birth, and then tracking down those individuals. No need to wait until an innocent person is murdered: arrest the serial killers now!

Better yet, labor could be induced early in certain cases, or a hospital in the wrong place could be torn down and rebuilt a few blocks away. A brave new world of more enlightened citizens could be just around the corner!

I look forward to seeing the results of your research.

 

[Aquila]

Quote from Ben:No one cares about the number of "hits"; any random guesser will have "hits" to boast of. The difference between a guesser and a predictor is the ratio of hits to misses.

Quote from sthompson: What about all the astrologers who didn't predict that there would be election problems?

You both raise important points. But please consider this: The only other time in the history of U.S. elections that there has been a recall of votes (in the 1870s I think - I don't have the date with me but can verify it if anyone insists) was also when Mercury was retrograde. What can we deduce from this? It would be foolish to think that the two events were connected causaly, and even to think that there was a direct correlation between the two. It could quite easily have been chance. But when we combine these events with what the occult and myth side of astrology says that Mercury means, some students of astrology say to themselves, well, yes, this is worth looking at. It might be woo, but it is very interesting woo.

 

[sthomson]

recall of votes

By the by, do you mean recount? I'm a little unclear.

...was also when Mercury was retrograde. What can we deduce from this? ...It might be woo, but it is very interesting woo.

Well, another good question to ask (after we take the time to verify your facts, which I'm not going to bother to do): How often is Mercury in retrograde? - it looks like mercury is in retrograde 3 times a year. And every year, there are countless elections in schools, churches, businesses, unions, towns, cities, states, and nations all over the world. So really, you're saying "two elections with mercury in retrograde in US history", but you're discounting all the times that nothing happened when an election was held on a day when Mercury was in retrograde.

So really, it would be "interesting woo", if it was true.

 

[Aquila]

Repeat after me: "Correlation is not causation."

Cello Man - we've been over this several times. Correlation is not causation, but it's the only thing that astrology has which qualifies it as a pseudo-science. Correlation is also the only thing that much of psychology has to also classify it as a pseudo-science.

Evidence?

I'm afraid that there is no evidence for Cancer being different to Capricorn or any other sign. Much of astrology is based entirely on occult principles (such as the Kaballah) or myth (Greek or Babylonian for example). The only vaguelly pseudo-scientific evidence for Cancerians being different from Capricorns is that in the Northern Hemisphere, babies who are born in July will have a far different diet from babies who are born in January - at least it used to be that way before the global economy and food being imported from everywhere on the planet. July babies would experience hotter temperatures in the N. Hemisphere than January babies and these environmental stimuli would supposedly influence their personalities. We can also apply these differences in environment to the growing embryos while in the mother's womb.

 

[Aquila]

By the by, do you mean recount? I'm a little unclear.

Sorry, I did meant recount.

...And every year, there are countless elections in schools, churches, businesses, unions, towns, cities, states, and nations all over the world. So really, you're saying "two elections with mercury in retrograde in US history", but you're discounting all the times that nothing happened when an election was held on a day when Mercury was in retrograde.

As far as we know....
But it is not as simple as that. According to astrologers, it is where Mercury transits in a person's horoscope that is important - which houses it goes through and which planets in one's natal chart it aspects. This information will indicate what the person or, in this case, country is re-living, re-doing or revising. Mercury retrograde is not bad or good. Many professional writers are born with Mercury Rx.

 

[Hokulele]

Cello Man - we've been over this several times. Correlation is not causation, but it's the only thing that astrology has which qualifies it as a pseudo-science.

[Inigo Montoya voice]

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

[/Inigo Montoya voice]

 

[sthomson]

Cello Man - we've been over this several times. Correlation is not causation, but it's the only thing that astrology has which qualifies it as a pseudo-science. Correlation is also the only thing that much of psychology has to also classify it as a pseudo-science.

I would be hesitant to even call it correlation. It's factual cherry-picking, pure and simple. Astrologists claim, "Saggitarius rising causes a need for fame and recognition, so you see lots of celebrities born under this sign" (or whatever, I'm just making this stuff up). So a skeptic will say, "Well, look at all these hundreds of thousands of other celebrities that weren't born under Saggitarius. But of course, the astrologists can point to some other factor.

It's coincidence with a mythological wrapper.

 

[Aquila]

Aquila, what did Capricorn rule in the days before corporations and banks existed? What did it represent in the feudal era, the Roman Empire and the Stone Age?

If an astrologer had to give a definite description of the sign Capricorn, he or she would probably try and describe it using its ruling planet, Saturn, its symbolic animal in the Zodiac, the goat, its path on the Kabalistic Tree of Life (a mixture of Judaism and modern occult) and its tarot key, The Devil. Basically, the Capricorn energy is restrictive. On the highest spiritual level, the Saturn principle (represented by the black sphere shown on the Tree of Life in the linked ifdawn website is the part of consciousness/God which condenses light energy into physical matter. Capricorn is part of consciousness which is detectable by our senses. In the tarot key, the devil is holding up his hand as if to say "this is all there is". This world of the senses will manifest differently in different times of history, but the principle is eternal. The devil is the same as the one that Jesus was supposedly tempted by.

http://www.borndigital.com/tree/index.html

Does the fact that Pluto is no longer classified as a planet make any difference to its astrological role?

Absolutely none.

Has it occurred to you that the only reason there seems to be "a battle of some sort" between Cancer and Capricorn is because human beings have quite arbitrarily assigned different characteristics to different signs of the Zodiac?

Your are right. But when planets transit those signs, the battle becomes more pronounced.