What is good about religion?

[Gregory]

I don't think the Hitler situation is quite so clear cut...

Private statements

Hitler's private statements are more clear. There are negative statements about Christianity reported by Hitler's intimates, Goebbels, Speer, and Bormann.[25] Joseph Goebbels, for example, notes in a diary entry in 1939: "The Führer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay." Albert Speer reports a similar statement: “You see, it’s been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn’t we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"[26] In the Hossbach Memorandum Hitler is recorded as saying that "only the disintegrating effect of Christianity, and the symptoms of age" were responsible for the demise of the Roman empire.[27] In 1941, Hitler praised an anti-Christian tract from 362CE, Julian's Against the Galileans, saying "I really hadn't known how clearly a man like Julian had judged Christians and Christianity, one must read this..."[28] He was reported to say that religion should die on its own accord.[29]

 

[articulett]

Articulett, what do you mean exactly by

"I think you don't really have that much faith in your beliefs. "
And
"Neither do your beliefs about your beliefs [make sense] "

?

I cant' go on. I feel like I'm talking to an emotional infant. I just hope you are young. It sounds like you are as brainwashed as the people of North Korea or any cult member. You can't think beyond your belief system. You ask for evidence but you don't assimilate it. You make such childish claims that show a complete lack of understanding of both science and history--and the bible you claim to believe in (or cherry pick from.) You think faith is good for something--but you haven't conveyed what it's good for to anyone except yourself. It just seems to have made you mentally incapable of rational dialogue. You have that weird faithy arrogance coupled with that weird faithy ignorance that you'd probably recognize in a Scientologist, but you are utterly blind to in yourself.

And now this Hitler tangent. As I said, his writings, speeches, and translations, are all over the web-- as are the "godly" belt buckles the Nazi's wore and other religious memorabilia from the Nazis. Google the KKK and find out how very Christian they consider themselves and which bible phrases they use...

If you believe that Hitler was an atheist or that he as not Christian, then you have bought into some propaganda not supported by facts. I've dealt with these types of brain washed people for so long that I know it's not fixable--that dialogue is impossible that they never have any evidence for their claims while demanding I go provide link after link they never even mention again. I'm not the one making unsupported claims in post after post. I support my claims and I support the video in the OP, because I'm tired of the retardation of masses of people like yourself due, at least in part to religion. It depresses me, and when I read you, I fear there are masses of equally impervious people made daft at the hands of faith.

At least, the guy in the OP makes me laugh. You make me waste time gathering info. that you are incapable of understanding.

 

[JetLeg]

And now this Hitler tangent. As I said, his writings, speeches, and translations, are all over the web-- as are the "godly" belt buckles the Nazi's wore and other religious memorabilia from the Nazis.

Well, I asked specifically, if you have evidence for that Nazi killed atheists along with gays. You did claim that. And it did not appear in your references. I think you just did not notice when posting, that I was asking for references on this specific point.

 

[articulett]

I don't think the Hitler situation is quite so clear cut...

Yes...he was conflicted or inconsistent, but never an atheist. He considered himself a Catholic until his dying day and though atheists were as "immoral" as the Jews and homosexuals. Christians have worked long and hard to find bits and pieces of quotes to say he was not a Christian (but no Christians agree on who is and isn't a true Christian anyhow), but he never lacked a belief in a god and always had contempt for the secular. Heck, Kim Jong Il is born of a god according to his books teachings... and yet Christians will call North Korea atheistic.

But Hitler is a tangent. It's all dogma. Hitler, Kim Jong Il, the pope and all religious gurus. They all claim to have higher truths or special messages that one needs to believe without question. The more virulent they are, the more they discourage rationality and dissent--and so the more they must demonize science and atheism and doubt while singing the glories of faith and patriotism and tying them together.

 

[rocketdodger]

I don't think the Hitler situation is quite so clear cut...

So in other words, Hitler used religious rhetoric as a tool while secretly feeling differntly. This differs from almost every other religious authority figure how?

 

[JetLeg]

So in other words, Hitler used religious rhetoric as a tool while secretly feeling differntly. This differs from almost every other religious authority figure how?

Which religious authorities feel secretly differently, and how do you know that?

 

[articulett]

So in other words, Hitler used religious rhetoric as a tool while secretly feeling differntly. This differs from almost every other religious authority figure how?

I always wonder if pedophilia clergy really believe in hell? How many people like Ted Haggard preach hell, but don't really think they'd go there? Oral Roberts?

Just like God--religions tend to be disassociated from all that is bad by those who have been brain washed to defend faith at all costs and associated with all good even though it has nothing whatsoever to do with said benefits.

Jetlag says it's wrong to hurt people. He says he got this morality from God. But god seems to think it's fine to hurt people--punish them forever, if need be. Jesus had lessons as to how hard you could beat slaves. I don't really think he got this lesson from any bible. I think it's wrong to hurt people too. In fact, I have well developed mirror neurons, and when I see anyone suffering, I suffer too... even when I see things like bugs seeming to suffer and I KNOW that they don't have the neural circuitry that is likely to allow them to experience suffering. I don't hurt other people because it hurts me-- I can imagine how it would feel to lose my child, and so I cannot conceive of killing another mother's child in a war or whatever. It's against my nature. And I am not all loving, but I am a thousand times nicer and more loving than the god of the bible or quoran.

 

[rocketdodger]

Which religious authorities feel secretly differently, and how do you know that?

a) All of the major authorities in history, who, in their writings, detail how much dogma is probably not true yet must remain to keep order. I don't feel like finding citations but trust me it is there -- a good example is the philosophy of people like Aquinas.

b) All of the petty authorities across the land, who preach against various sins and then commit them themselves. A good example would be the pedophilia trend in catholic authorities.

 

[JetLeg]

a) All of the major authorities in history, who, in their writings, detail how much dogma is probably not true yet must remain to keep order. I don't feel like finding citations but trust me it is there -- a good example is the philosophy of people like Aquinas.

b) All of the petty authorities across the land, who preach against various sins and then commit them themselves. A good example would be the pedophilia trend in catholic authorities.

As to the second, it does not mean that they don't believe it is wrong. People often do things which consider wrong, due to a lack of control, and not because deep inside they disbelieve it is wrong.

 

[articulett]

Well, I asked specifically, if you have evidence for that Nazi killed atheists along with gays. You did claim that. And it did not appear in your references. I think you just did not notice when posting, that I was asking for references on this specific point.

Well, I'm not sure the Nazis kept the best records of who they killed and why--we know they rounded up and killed additional people other than the Jews in order to purify the race--including the mentally ill, homosexuals, and atheists:

We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith.
We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement,
and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

If you weren't pretending to be a Christian, you had a very hard time surviving int in Germany in the 30's--

Quit bugging me--tangent man. You go on believing whatever silly faith based nothingness has been dumped in your head. Or, educate yourself. You can google everything about Hitler including his trials... all of it.

Don't know what to ask?-- start here: http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

Face it-- you can't stand the fact that your belief system may not be as necessary or "good" for morality as you've imagined or as your gurus have taught you. The Bible has been used to justify as many horrific crimes as the Quoran-- and people, as well as animals, can behave very moral without having a single dogma dumped into their head as "higher truth". What fantastic moral gifts has your religion given you, and is it worth the cost of your ability to reason?

 

[rocketdodger]

As to the second, it does not mean that they don't believe it is wrong. People often do things which consider wrong, due to a lack of control, and not because deep inside they disbelieve it is wrong.

No. If you really believe in hell, and you really believe that molesting a young boy is a guaranteed ticket to hell, then you will simply not do it. No if's, and's, or but's about it.

The reason authorities do these things is because they don't really believe it. Just like the reason a man kills another man in the heat of a robbery is that he doesn't, in that moment, really believe the police will catch him eventually.

 

[articulett]

As to the second, it does not mean that they don't believe it is wrong. People often do things which consider wrong, due to a lack of control, and not because deep inside they disbelieve it is wrong.

Yes... but compare this to what you've provided. You've asserted that religion helps teach morality. Where's the evidence? Where is the evidence that religious people behave more morally? Could it just be that religion teaches people that those who believe like they do are more moral than everyone else? Your lack of evidence makes that the obvious answer to me.
The people I find the most moral are very often the least religious.

 

[articulett]

No. If you really believe in hell, and you really believe that molesting a young boy is a guaranteed ticket to hell, then you will simply not do it. No if's, and's, or but's about it.

The reason authorities do these things is because they don't really believe it. Just like the reason a man kills another man in the heat of a robbery is that he doesn't, in that moment, really believe the police will catch him eventually.

Or at least you could cut off your testes. But they don't even do that. And we are talking about a supposed eternity, right? So I think they don't really believe it.

But most religions are all about cognitive dissonance, I guess-- "do as I say, not as I do"...?

 

[Irony]

Which religious authorities feel secretly differently, and how do you know that?

All of them, and we know it by their fruits.

 

[JetLeg]

Yes... but compare this to what you've provided. You've asserted that religion helps teach morality. Where's the evidence? Where is the evidence that religious people behave more morally? Could it just be that religion teaches people that those who believe like they do are more moral than everyone else? Your lack of evidence makes that the obvious answer to me.
The people I find the most moral are very often the least religious.

I do not have solid evidence such as studies, that religion helps improve morality.

But I do know that it teaches it. That preachers tell people how important it is to help other people, and to be kind, and to be generous. And so, their ideals are reinforced. This is why I think religion helps.

 

[rocketdodger]

The Bible has been used to justify as many horrific crimes as the Quoran--

Many, many, many more, actually, since Islam is relatively young compared to christianity.

 

[articulett]

Which religious authorities feel secretly differently, and how do you know that?

What evidence do you have that they aren't just using it to elevate their own power and standing and opportunities--even if they've convinced themselves it's part of some higher morality as Hitler appears to have done-- and you?

Hitler is a big promoter of faith-- the faithful make the best patriots--and the best sheep-- the best minions-- the best followers-- the means of elevating your own views and your own delusions of grandeur. Just ask Jim Jones, Charles, Manson, Marshall Applewhite, David Koresh, the Pope, the Mormon Prophet, Presidents Bush I and II, Osama Bin Laden, Kim Jong Il--

If you can get people to believe faith is good and then get them to believe you have access to the right faith-- you can lead them to do anything for you.

 

[rocketdodger]

But I do know that it teaches it. That preachers tell people how important it is to help other people, and to be kind, and to be generous.

Unless the other people are, among other things, homosexuals, people of "enemy" religions, prostitutes, heretics, atheists, promiscuous women, etc.

 

[JetLeg]

What evidence do you have that they aren't just using it to elevate their own power and standing and opportunities--even if they've convinced themselves it's part of some higher morality as Hitler appears to have done-- and you?

Not much. But they appear very trustworthy and lofty.

 

[articulett]

I do not have solid evidence such as studies, that religion helps improve morality.

But I do know that it teaches it. That preachers tell people how important it is to help other people, and to be kind, and to be generous. And so, their ideals are reinforced. This is why I think religion helps.

And so you expect you'd find more generous, helpful, and less bigoted people amongst the religious, right? But to me, it seems the kindness just extends to the in group--those that believe as you do... or that you could convert or that you've deemed worthy. Perhaps I find it kinder to be of actual service and share useful knowledge to people and to extend your helping beyond those who believe as you do-- to different people, to the ignorant, to other species that share the planet. I think actions count for more than words in passing on culture and civilization and kindness and tolerance. I don't think religion has a leg up on that area-- they talk the talk--but who walks the walk? And why do I see the non-religious as being better examples of morality than those telling me what god wants?

I think we've evolved beyond a point where we need to threaten people to be good and promise them halos and eternal glory-- I think modeling cooperation and civilized behavior goes much further in enhancing the empathy that has evolved in most of us and legal and social sanctions are the best way of handling those who haven't developed a conscience. Religion can't fix a broken brain. And it may be a good way to get little kids to think about morality... but I think it's sad if grown ups "need" it to be moral. Even my dog doesn't need it to exhibit basic traits like loyalty, guilt, kindness, glee, and to try to curb jealousy.