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Bible code theory

Funny and interesting, but of course irrelevant to the actual research on the Torah codes.

This is getting boring again. There are actual problems with this research, but this kind of blatant deception isn't one of them.

It was a joke! Of course nobody has made any predictions using Torah codes or Moby Dick codes. I already agreed with you on that point, so I thought it would be obvious that I was joking.

I'm still waiting for you to respond to my serious post here which contains some much more legitimate criticism of the "actual research on the Torah codes."

-Bri
 
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(4) you will find that the "Moby Dick", etc., demonstrations did not and do not fairly duplicate the phenomenon and are in fact based on a misunderstanding of how it works.

And yet it works with any and every piece of litterature you can imagine.

It's seeing patterns where there are none, plain and simple.

Loss Leader: With all due respect, you aren't listening. The Codes, if they exist, cannot be used for prediction. That is not their significance, if they have any.

That's a weird admission.
 
Bri:

Sorry about that. By way of excuse, I'm still very new here, and I haven't gotten to know anybody.

You've probably noticed, as I have, that there are a lot of posts here that OUGHT to be jokes, but aren't...

I really wanted to go look at some other threads, but I'll try to address your criticisms by trying, at least, to explain what this phenomenon IS. That might help in the discussion, since no one has yet done so.

This may take a while.

First, then: words may be found "encoded" in the Torah--or, as you say, in ANY book--by programming a computer to search for the letters in the words that appear in sequence at equidistant intervals. The word "Joshua", for instance, might appear at a 7-letter interval: "J", then six letters, then "O", then six letters, then "S", and so on (I know, Hebrew has no vowels; this is an example). Now, clearly, this means nothing. Since the computer can easily find words at intervals of thousands of letters, one can obviously find literally any word in any book; the shorter the word, or the longer the book, the more instances of the word's appearance can and will be found. Big deal. If this were all there was to the phenomenon, it would not rate a filler paragraph on the back pages, but some apparently believe that this is the case.

The phenomenon of the codes, and its statistical improbability, is in this: Say we find a word--in the initial experiment, the name of a medieval rabbi--encoded in the text in this manner. Not difficult; Jewish names tend to repeat, just as English names do (how many "Roberts" do you know?). The name has to appear SOMEWHERE, and is in fact quite certain to appear in MANY places. But now we focus on the place where the name appears at its SHORTEST interval, obviously a much smaller portion of the text. Again, that means nothing--it has to happen somewhere.

But now we search for a related word or phrase--again, in the initial experiment, the date of that rabbi's birth or death, whichever is known; and we find that that information appears, again at its SHORTEST interval, IN THE SAME PLACE. To make the improbability of that clear, imagine the whole Torah spread out on a football field, and the place where both words appear at their shortest intervals is the size of a paperback book. That should strike anyone as rather unlikely; still, though, it might be a mere coincidence, and one such example still proves nothing.

The problem, for those who wish to dismiss the codes as meaningless or trivial, is that this strange coincidence appeared over and over with a rather long list of rabbis and their dates which were chosen by an arbitrary standard before the searches began.

These results were so shocking that the journal, Statistical Science, insisted that the experiment be repeated, this time with an entirely different list using another arbitrary standard--one chosen by reviewers at the journal and not by the scientists involved. The results were the same.

[Edited to add: I do not claim that these extreme outcomes occurred with every rabbi on either list; they did not. But the degree of correlation was extremely high, with a probability calculated at p < 0.000016. When precisely similar experiments were conducted with exactly the same data sets on the book of Isaiah and a Hebrew translation of "War and Peace", no such correlations were found.]

The standard was, for the record, the amount of space devoted to the rabbis' biographies in the Encyclopedia of Great Men in Israel, a standard work [for clarity, "Israel" here refers to the Jewish people and not to the nation-state]. The first sample included rabbis with at least three columns of text; the second, those with between 1.5 columns and three. There is, therefore, no question of the researchers using carefully selected data to ensure positive results; the standard was totally arbitrary and determined beforehand.

Similar experiments with other texts--significantly, including other books of the Bible--have yielded no such consistency of results.

Perhaps, in the Moby Dick experiment, a similar encoded pair or two were found, after searching dozens of possibilities; that would not, as we have seen, be particularly surprising. But I know of no experiment with any other text that either used these arbitrary standards or that has produced such a long list of positive results or with an equally low predicted probability..

I hope this has clarified things a bit.
 
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Whatever. Peace to all, and for the record, you're probably right anyway. I just thought the research interesting, but then it doesn't challenge my convictions as directly as it apparently does those of others.

Just because somebody claims something is BS doesn't mean that person is challenged by the idea. Maybe it IS just BS.

But then, you'd have to do research in order to find that out.
 
Your conviction that Abraham and Moses were mythical characters is just as much a statement of faith as my own belief that they probably weren't. In fact, since it's exceedingly hard to logically prove a negative, perhaps even more so.

Yeah, that doesn't help you, because then it puts the burden of proof on YOU to prove that they DID exist. Because, so far, zilch.

At one time it was confidently asserted that the Iliad was entirely fictional, that the Trojan war never happened, and that Troy itself never existed. Later finds have proven that that assertion was false.

Actually, people weren't sure if Troy existed or not, but that's beside the point, because it's pretty much the only known example that people EVER come up with.

Jews are not, by and large, fundamentalists.

That's also true of most non-Jews, so I don't see why you care to make the distinction.
 
Not listening again

"Yeah, that doesn't help you, because then it puts the burden of proof on YOU to prove that they DID exist. Because, so far, zilch."

Did you miss the part where I said it didn't matter?

It's a non-question. For those who believe they DID exist, the Torah IS the historical reference and the proof. For those who don't, or don't care--what's the problem again?

"Actually, people weren't sure if Troy existed or not, but that's beside the point, because it's pretty much the only known example that people EVER come up with."

Oh, I wouldn't say that. Until recently, some said that neither King David nor tha ancient nation of Israel itself ever existed--until contemporary inscriptions referring to his dynasty were found. Scientists long dismissed both pandas and gorillas as creatures of folklore, until living specimens were captured. The coelacanth was pronounced extinct, until specimens were caught. And so on. Both historical study and biological science are trustworthy enterprises, but neither has closed its canon quite yet.

"That's also true of most non-Jews, so I don't see why you care to make the distinction."

Um--because we were discussing a Jewish book, its place in Jewish tradition, and the attitudes of Jews toward it?
 
Sorry about that. By way of excuse, I'm still very new here, and I haven't gotten to know anybody.

You've probably noticed, as I have, that there are a lot of posts here that OUGHT to be jokes, but aren't...

Understood, and not a problem.

I really wanted to go look at some other threads, but I'll try to address your criticisms by trying, at least, to explain what this phenomenon IS. That might help in the discussion, since no one has yet done so.

I read through your explanation, and believe that I did understand the phenomenon when I made my comments.

The problem, for those who wish to dismiss the codes as meaningless or trivial, is that this strange coincidence appeared over and over with a rather long list of rabbis and their dates which were chosen by an arbitrary standard before the searches began.

No, the lists were not chosen by an arbitrary standard beforehand. If they had chosen a list of rabbis and birth dates beforehand and never changed it, the birth dates would at the very least include the year that each rabbi was born. I could even see if the list only included the year and not the day and month. However, the authors chose to use only the day and month of the rabbis birth dates. The reason is obvious: because none of the other formats turn up anything even remotely close to each other, and the results are no better than chance. To get the 1 in a million odds that are claimed, the authors had to tweak the list, and possibly even the procedure (the "rules") used to find them. In some examples by the same researchers, they don't use the minimal interval rule. Again, the reason is fairly clear.

Using the same procedures used by the researchers to find the rabbis in the Torah, these sorts of "coincidences" still appear in every text, including Moby Dick. There are many examples from Moby Dick where lists of multiple related words are found in the same "area" of the text at their minimal intervals using the same procedure used to find the rabbis.

These results were so shocking that the journal, Statistical Science, insisted that the experiment be repeated, this time with an entirely different list using another arbitrary standard--one chosen by reviewers at the journal and not by the scientists involved. The results were the same.

I assume you are aware but forgot to mention that the same journal later published an article thoroughly discrediting the article you mentioned.

There is, therefore, no question of the researchers using carefully selected data to ensure positive results; the standard was totally arbitrary and determined beforehand.

But of course it wasn't totally arbitrary nor determined beforehand. In fact, there is evidence that the researchers had performed the famous rabbis experiment beforehand and knew that the dates would be in close proximity to the names. Why do you suppose they chose only the month and day of the rabbi's birth dates? And why do you suppose they chose particular names and spellings of the months over other more common names and spellings?

They also didn't use the same dates as those provided in the book that they took the names from. They omitted several dates on the grounds that those listed were in dispute, yet they kept several other disputed dates. They also used dates from other sources on the grounds that those other sources were more authoritative, but they kept at least two dates that were probably wrong.

And of course whenever any of their arbitrary decisions are changed, the results are rather telling.

Similar experiments with other texts--significantly, including other books of the Bible--have yielded no such consistency of results.

That seems to be false. In fact, there are many examples, both in English and in Hebrew, for many texts including both English and Hebrew versions of the Bible, Moby Dick, and War and Peace.

Perhaps, in the Moby Dick experiment, a similar encoded pair or two were found, after searching dozens of possibilities; that would not, as we have seen, be particularly surprising. But I know of no experiment with any other text that either used these arbitrary standards or that has produced such a long list of positive results.

If you know of no experiment with any other text that either used these arbitrary standards or that has produced such a long list of positive results, then your knowledge on the subject seems to be lacking.

I hope this has clarified things a bit.

It does, yes.

-Bri
 
[Edited to add: I do not claim that these extreme outcomes occurred with every rabbi on either list; they did not. But the degree of correlation was extremely high, with a probability calculated at p < 0.000016. When precisely similar experiments were conducted with exactly the same data sets on the book of Isaiah and a Hebrew translation of "War and Peace", no such correlations were found.]

Of course no such correlations would be found using the list of rabbis on a different text. But other lists have similar correlations with other texts such as Isaiah and War and Peace. Likewise, those other lists don't correlate to Genesis.

If you found the word "rhinoceros" in one random 10x10 grid of letters, you're not likely to find it in another one are you?

The whole point was that the researchers quite obviously went on a fishing expedition, and threw back the little ones. The same can be done with any text.

-Bri
 
Bri

I would have to agree that the criticisms that you raise here would pretty much blow the codes out of the water. Can you post a source--website, book, whatever--where I can find this material? I'd like to know more about it.

If you were expecting an argument, I have none. Facts are facts. I may be religious, but I am neither irrational nor an ideologue.

One of the principles I have learned in my religious studies is this: "If you see something in the Torah that conflicts with what you know to be true or right, then you must reject the teaching of the Torah in that instance. It may be that your understanding of the Torah is flawed--or the Torah may simply be wrong." Most common example; the condemnation of homosexuality as an "abomination."
Liberal Jews today, for the most part, simply ignore those passages; they're wrong. Writing off the
Torah codes will be much less difficult.

In my belief, God gave us the Torah, but He also gave us brains. Thanks for giving me something to put in mine.

Learning the truth is more important than winning any argument. Thank you.
 
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I would have to agree that the criticisms that you raise here would pretty much blow the codes out of the water. Can you post a source--website, book, whatever--where I can find this material? I'd like to know more about it.

Absolutely. Most of the information (and a lot more) can be found in the paper "Solving the Bible Code Puzzle" which was published by Statistical Science in 1999 in response to the paper "Equidistant Letter Sequences in the Book of Genesis" which was published in the same journal in 1994 by Doron Witztum, Eliyahu Rips, and Yoav Rosenberg.

A copy of the paper can be found online in PDF format here.

If you were expecting an argument, I have none. Facts are facts. I may be religious, but I am neither irrational nor an ideologue.

I appreciate your honesty, and your principles. By the way, when I first heard about the Torah codes, I too was fascinated and determined to look deeper. So, I've certainly been where you are.

One of the principles I have learned in my religious studies is this: "If you see something in the Torah that conflicts with what you know to be true or right, then you must reject the teaching of the Torah in that instance. It may be that your understanding of the Torah is flawed--or the Torah may simply be wrong." Most common example; the condemnation of homosexuality as an "abomination."
Liberal Jews today, for the most part, simply ignore those passages; they're wrong. Writing off the
Torah codes will be much less difficult.

In my belief, God gave us the Torah, but He also gave us brains. Thanks for giving me something to put in mine.

Learning the truth is more important than winning any argument. Thank you.

Thank you for looking at it so objectively and for being more interested in the truth than in winning the argument. Others (myself included) can learn a lot from your example, so I hope you'll stick around on the forum.

-Bri
 
Wouldn't you just know it!

Well... Feces.

Wouldn't you just know it. I don't have a computer (well, I do, but it's in storage). I do this on a BlackBerry, and I can't download PDF files. Excrement.

Well, it's all good. I'll google around and see if I can find a summary or something. I know where to find it, anyway. Thanks.

Thanks for the kind words, too. I'm having a great time here. Pretty cool place, even if I am in the, um, minority.

BTW (and this not directed at you, Bri), I don't mind being called an idiot. I'm used to it. I've been married.
 
Here is some additional reading on Torah codes until you can view the paper. It is a site by Professor Barry Simon, the IBM Professor of Mathematics and Theoretical Physics at Caltech and an Orthodox Jew. In particular, take a look at The Case Against The Codes on that site.

Here is a list of other sites containing various expert opinions on the Torah codes.

-Bri
 
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The whole business about it not being copied or translated correctly is a total red herring. To be honest, I've never been very impressed by Ehrman. He's a scholar, but I totally don't think he gets it at all.

Talking about copying or translating problems totally misses the point first of all, and second of all, in fact these works are actually very well preserved.

Talking about errors in copying is making an argument that the "word of God" has been lost, but this is a stupid thing to talk about, because the more important issue us that it was never the word of God in the first place, which can easily be shown by the content of what we do have.

......The reason that this whole "Bible Code" thing even came up is explained in my article. The reason is that the writers of the Gospels were using literary allusion. They would base scenes in the Gospels on scenes in the Hebrew scritpures, but the scenes in the Hebrew scritpures that they were basing their scenes on were not prophecies, they were things like, for example, Psalm 22, passages in Kings about Elisha, or some seemingly random passage in Hosea, etc.

What the early Christians noticed was that all or most of the scenes in the Gospels related back to "OT" passages, but the passages that they related back to weren't anything that could clearly be picked out as a prophecy on its own merits.

Thus they came up with the idea that the Hebrew scritpures were "secretly encoded"......

I don't think that is what was being discussed in the OP with regard to the terms "Bible Code"

I thought they were referring to an idea that had to do with actual letters and actual words forming patterns. Anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

I would refer to Wiki's discussion:

(go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code)

"Overview

The primary method by which purportedly meaningful messages have been extracted is the Equidistant Letter Sequence (ELS). To obtain an ELS from a text, choose a starting point (in principle, any letter) and a skip number, also freely and possibly negative. Then, beginning at the starting point, select letters from the text at equal spacing as given by the skip number. For example, the bold letters in this sentence form an ELS. With a skip of -4, and ignoring the spaces and punctuation, the word SAFEST is spelled out."

My question is that if we know there are numerous mistakes in letters and words....regardless about whether or not the general story is the same... how can anyone believe in these patterns in the first place?

With regard to Ehrman (who does not believe the Bible is "God's word"), I have no idea about his personal scholarship. His states in Misquoting Jesus he is writing to the general public of what the overall findings in his field, textual criticism, are. He never talks about his particular contributions. I found his book fascinating in that regard.:)
 
I don't think that is what was being discussed in the OP with regard to the terms "Bible Code"

That is correct, but what I'm talking about is how all of this originated. Starting in the 2nd century there was a view among Romans that the Hebrew scriptures contained all of the prophecies for all future events, based on the relationships between the "NT" texts and the "OT" texts, but they couldn't figure out how to actually predict the future with the "OT" texts because there are no clear patterns between the OT and the NT. The NT texts are based on the OT, but they are based on OT "prophecies", they are just based on seemingly random passages, and this is what started the whole business of thinking that the OT contained prophecies of the future, but not being able to figure out how to discover the prophecies before hand, and this is what launched the whole industry of trying to "decode" the OT, and of course it has evolved from there down many different roads.

There are 3rd, 4th, 5th, centuries writings talking about the power that could be gained by the emperor and the military if they could figure out how to decode the OT, etc., since they believed that the NT proved that it had the power to predict the future, etc.

They were to stupid to realize that the NT Gospel writers simply based their stories on the OT.
 
Yes, but the hunting expedition used to find the "codes" can only occur after the event has occurred. You have to start with a list of words, then calculate the probability of those words appearing exactly as they do in the text. If the probability isn't high enough, you modify your list of words and try again until you get a result you like. Hardly useful for predicting anything since you have to have the list of words to start with.



Oh, the information exists before the event occurs, of course. But only because the list of words you chose happens to pertain to an event that occurred after the text was written. You can get the results you want using words associated with any event (or anything else you want) if you're willing to spend the time to modify the list and/or the procedure until you get the results you want.

-Bri
Ehrm, that is the same as saying that the codes are bunk. They are just the kind of random patterns you can extract from any sufficiently large amount of data.

Was that your point?

Hans
 
In any case, you're saying pretty much what I did; the best proof of the codes would be a detailed prediction of an event that is found before it happens, and even that might not make the cut. For some, there will NEVER be sufficient proof, and some have even said as much in print. That strikes me as just as much of a "faith-based" position as that of someone who maintains that nothing could DISPROVE their beliefs; neither is rational.
(My emphasis)

Now since you are a reasonable and polite guy, I'll be also polite about this: Excrement.

There may be people out there to whom there will never be sufficient proof, and to whom it is a matter of irrational faith. Till some such people enter this debate, however, that is utterly irrelevant. In fact even if some do it will be irrelevant till such time as somebody does present some solid evidence for them to irrationally reject.

Nothing personal, but I have seen that line so many times from believers: "Hey, even if I did produce some irrefutable evidence you would reject it anyway, so you are just as irrational as me."

.... All I can say is: Try me. Produce some irrefutable evidence. Heck, just produce some good evidence.

Hans
 
Nothing personal, but I have seen that line so many times from believers: "Hey, even if I did produce some irrefutable evidence you would reject it anyway, so you are just as irrational as me."


The funny part is that they can't see that they aren't as much criticizing skeptics as shooting down their own argument.

"Gee, you are just as irrational as me!"

And that is supposed to be convincing?
 
Well, I suppose it is, if you live in an irrational world.

Hans
 
Uh, dude, I'm pretty well read, and ALL of that is new to me. You have a source?

The Torah codes are not related to Kabbalah, at least not directly.
The use of letter as numbers is part of the kabbalah, and then the transliteration of the words to numbers a versa visa.
The Oral Torah traditionally goes back to Sinai, which was about 3,500 years ago, not 600.
Read much? The Lilillith story is commonly believed to be dated to the 1500s.
Best guess I've seen on the origin of Kabbalah is that it was the esoteric teaching of the Temple priests, who continued to pass it on orally after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, but no one really knows.
Duh, I said it was the oral tradition.

Some claim Moses stole it from the Egyptians.
The "rabbinical" (sic) tradition didn't remove anything from Tanakh, because "rabbis" did not exist until after that date.
I realize that, I could have said the monotheistic tradition that led to rabbis, I didn't. So when were the requirements of matrimony added into the texts?
Since Abraham's initial innovation was that there was only One God, I doubt very much that there were ever any "polytheistic texts" in the Bible.
Then you need to read more, there are dead sea scrolls that would indicate that there was a polytheistic tradition along side the one in the torah.
The Lilith story is a midrashic legend and was never in the Bible.
You need to read more carefully, i said that Lillith was part of the kabbalah.

Read much kabbalah?
(I thought the Weekly World News had gone belly up...)


Ah, sarcasm, the resort of those who could learn more. And have low reading skills.
 

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